RE: Limits/No Limits (Full Version)

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OrlandoMars -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/4/2005 9:21:54 AM)

quote:

What about the Master's role in intentionally pushing limits as part of learning and growing as a slave, to expand boundaries to do more

A Dom should push boundaries, limits are exactly what they say and can never be pushed. By the same argument, you could suggest that safewords are just suggestions. Safewords should NEVER be suggestions, if you have one then its use should be unequivocal. This all goes back to one of my pet peeves, which is people not establishing a clear dialog up front and performing a negotiation before jumping in. If a sub says something is a limit up-front then I respect that. If she says that she has never tried something so she's not sure if its a limit then it is a boundary UNTIL it becomes a limit.



Webmaster60 -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/4/2005 10:06:35 AM)

quote:

If it's a limit, it's not pushed, it's not prodded. It's a limit.
I have a limit on always using condoms for sex. That's NOT getting pushed.


I'm not knocking you. What works for you, works for you.
I however, would be unwilling to engage in a relationship with a person having that mentality. "For me".. no one, should ever say "never".




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/4/2005 10:20:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Webmaster60
I'm not knocking you. What works for you, works for you.
I however, would be unwilling to engage in a relationship with a person having that mentality. "For me".. no one, should ever say "never".


Well aren't you then saying "you will NEVER be in a relationship with someone with that mentality"?

Not sure which mentality you mean- I do not want children, nor do I want to get diseases which you can get from sex and I believe that I am taking actions to mitigate it to my comfort levels. If circumstances change- either I want children, or I don't care about getting a disease, or a better method of mitigating the risks without undue sacrifice comes along, then the limits can be re-rexamined.



Webmaster60 -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/4/2005 11:13:17 AM)

quote:

Well aren't you then saying "you will NEVER be in a relationship with someone with that mentality"?


Yes

quote:

Not sure which mentality you mean


The mentality that If it's a limit, it's not pushed, it's not prodded. It's a limit.
If you're worried about getting a disease from your Master.. Then perhaps there is a larger problem involved. And if your Master were to share you (just an example) then he would insure (hopefully) that you're protected.

See all your objection seems to based on "you" and what "you" want, and protecting "yourself".. None of what you say seems to place any trust or credibility on your Master.

Now AGAIN.. what works for you, workd for YOU.. it doesn't HAVE to work for me. If you're in a D/s style relationship rather thana M/s.. then it probably does work for you..

For me.. and JUST me.. if my slave cannot trust my judgement insofaras my ability to make wise decisions FOR her, she does not need to be MY slave.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/4/2005 11:20:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Webmaster60

quote:

Well aren't you then saying "you will NEVER be in a relationship with someone with that mentality"?


Yes

And you don't see the inherent conflict by saying

"For me".. no one, should ever say "never".

and then saying "Yes, I'm making a statement saying never."?

quote:


The mentality that If it's a limit, it's not pushed, it's not prodded.

Why is that a mentality you don't like? What if someone had a limit about needing to eat every few hours because they are diabetic? That has nothing to do with trust.

quote:

If you're worried about getting a disease from your Master.. Then perhaps there is a larger problem involved.

Or perhaps not. And just to point out, I'm not currently in an M/s relationship. However, in my prior relationship, he made it a limit to me that anyone I had sex with had to be with protection.
quote:


And if your Master were to share you (just an example) then he would insure (hopefully) that you're protected.

Yes, and he did that by telling me that every person I had sex with had to be with a condom- it had to be a limit of our interactions.

In our relationship I was able and encouraged to have sex with others, both in and out of his presence.
quote:


See all your objection seems to based on "you" and what "you" want, and protecting "yourself".. None of what you say seems to place any trust or credibility on your Master.

OR, here's an amazing alternative, the master agrees with those limits, or even imposes them upon me?

You've never heard of a slave having FEWER limits than their owner and the owner having to PUT more limits into the relationship?

quote:

For me.. and JUST me.. if my slave cannot trust my judgement insofaras my ability to make wise decisions FOR her, she does not need to be MY slave.

What does saying "if you have sex with me, you have to wear a condom" have to do with lacking trust?



perverseangelic -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/4/2005 11:22:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soulhuntre


quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
I think EVERYONE needs to feel ok with saying "I will not kill or abuse this non-consenting person because you tell me to." and "I will not kill myself because you tell me to."


Why does "everyone" need to be OK with that? Does the feelings of, say, my girls really matter to you that deeply in your life? Why would the standards of others be so important to you?


Because I have to live in a society of other people, and this situation makes that society dangerous for me to be a part of.

For the most part I can say "Well, not my kink, don't get it, but if it works, go for it."

However, in this case, it is fesable that aherance to that kink could end my life. Literaly. I feel that this causes me to be invovled in it, at least in some minimal way. I definatly see what you're saying in that it shouldn't matter to me what othe people feel, however, it isn't the -feelings- that trouble me. It's that acting on those feelings would cause other people to lose their lives.

Similarly, I couldn't say that the coersion of non-consenting individuals is OK in -any- dynamic, because it is violating the one rule of morality I consider inviolable-do not invovle someone without their consent. It gets iffy, because I beileve their are some moral absolutes, but then, what makes -my- moral absolutes the ones that are truly there? Nothing, and I know it. They are the ones that are absolute for me, though, and because that's the perspective I have, I carry on my discussions from that perspective.


quote:


Webmaster60
I'll agree that they are RARE, but they do exist. But please keep in mind.. a No Limits slave concept should ALSO be coupled with the understanding that their Master will not have them do something that would cause them harm (to an extreme degree) or dismemberment. One would not be WITH someone (hopefully) that would do so.

But to say a no limits slave is somehow unhealthy is unfair. She has just given that TOTAL trust to her Master and HOPEFULLY he is deserving OF such trust.


I do understand what you're saying, and see where you're coming from. My problem comes here though--someone puts their trust in an individual, and over time. While I know that most people can say "Yes, I know my partner will never ask me to kill myself" and have it be the total truth, I think that lacking the mental provision that says "..and even if they -did- ask me to kill myself I wouldn't" is a bad idea.

You say hopefully. Say, for example, the owner -isn't- worthy of such trust and asks the property to do something horrible. Commit murder (my all purpose example). Should that property be obligated to commit murder? Should he/she feel he/she has failed if he/she will not kill someone because the owner wasn't trustworthy? I say resoundingly no, and that the mindset that says that he/she -is- obligated and a failure if he/she doesn't is not good.

I am NOT saying that someone should not trust his/her partner implicitly. But, frankly, I -do- think it is unhealthy to say, and mean 'I would kill myself and/or abuse other non-consenting individuals at my owner's behest." It isn't that I think that being what we -call- a "no limits slave" is a bad thing. The way most use it, it means, I've found, that someone has limits that match his/her owner so limits do not become a question.

When I hear "no limits' though, I hear "I will do -anything- Period." That is the mindset I find unhealthy. Not the desire to submit to one's owner's desire because the owner's and property's morals and limits match and are never questioned. I find that to be an incredibly desirable relationship.


quote:


Webmaster60
The mentality that If it's a limit, it's not pushed, it's not prodded. It's a limit.
If you're worried about getting a disease from your Master.. Then perhaps there is a larger problem involved. And if your Master were to share you (just an example) then he would insure (hopefully) that you're protected.


What about limits that are limits for health reasons?

I cannot get water in my ears. That's a limit.

I =must= be on my medication and I =must= take it at the same time every day.
That's a limit that cannot change regardless as to my partner's desire.

Or moral limits?

I will not abuse someone. Period. No amount of trust is going to make me willing to commit acts of abuse against a non-consenting individual.

Sure stuff like "I really really dislike watersports" are meant to be played with IMHO. Or 'I don't enjoy swallowing after oral sex"
I just don't see those as limits. Limits are the stuff mentioned up there.

Hell, "safe sex" isn't a limit with me. I hate condoms. I don't wear them, basically ever. But I have friends for whom that's alimit, so with them, we wear condoms. IN that case, though, it's his owner that has required the limit. He prefers to be without condoms, but as she likes mulitple parnters she requires him to wear condoms. ~shrug~




KnightofMists -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/4/2005 6:24:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Soulhuntre


Is it clearly insane? I don't think so.




WHAT!!?? it's not insane... dang... so there goes my excuse for my incredibly irrational and volatile behavior to the point of insanity... mmmm guess I need another excuse ... um reason! for that behavior*

dang condoms!




MasterLark -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/5/2005 4:57:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrlandoMars

quote:

What about the Master's role in intentionally pushing limits as part of learning and growing as a slave, to expand boundaries to do more

A Dom should push boundaries, limits are exactly what they say and can never be pushed. <snip> If a sub says something is a limit up-front then I respect that. If she says that she has never tried something so she's not sure if its a limit then it is a boundary UNTIL it becomes a limit.
quote:

A Dom should push boundaries, limits are exactly what they say and can never be pushed.


That may be a useful distinction I had not heard before -- namely, there are Boundaries (meant to be pushed for growth) and Limits (meant to be respected out of very serious health or practical reasons).

So let's assume, Limits are hard and fast and are never to be changed. What might be examples of Boundaries, ripe for pushing or nudging a slave to grow as a slave? And what are some of the better strategies for pushing Boundaries?



Webmaster60 -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/5/2005 8:34:13 AM)

quote:

What about limits that are limits for health reasons?
I cannot get water in my ears. That's a limit.
I =must= be on my medication and I =must= take it at the same time every day.
That's a limit that cannot change regardless as to my partner's desire.
Or moral limits?
I will not abuse someone. Period. No amount of trust is going to make me willing to commit acts of abuse against a non-consenting individual.


I think we're saying the same thing.. It seems we're having trpuble defining "Limit".

A limit (to me) is something that an "s" type has imposed, or attempts to impose area's that may not be encroached.. I'm talking the normal limit stuff (scat, pee, blood etc etc etc..) These are meant to be pushed by a Master.. Always. Not again, depending on WHY its a limit determines the amount of care and consideration IN pushing that limit.

The other things you're speaking of.. Health concerns (not condoms), dietary concerns.. I don't see these as limits.. Yes, they may limit a person's interaction in certain ways ergo limit.. to be limited.. (and these are meant to be observed and reinforced by the Master) But the other stuff.. limits, things coming form "Off limits" are temporary barriers to be torn down. So I THINK we are in agreement.



Webmaster60 -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/5/2005 8:38:14 AM)

Yes.. to say "never say never" is contradictory.. done

quote:

OR, here's an amazing alternative, the master agrees with those limits, or even imposes them upon me?
You've never heard of a slave having FEWER limits than their owner and the owner having to PUT more limits into the relationship?


First.. quit being defensive. Your (percieved) tone is unnecessary.. I have no deisre to offend, therefore you need not DEfend.
Yes, of course I agree with you. and if these were things a Master has implaced or caused.. GREAT.. I was merely pointing out that the way you wrote them, they apeared to be self imposed sanctions as you spoke of them from an "I", standpoint.

Please read the previous post on how I'm defining "limit" before you disagree further.. We MAY be in agreement as well.





perverseangelic -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/5/2005 9:30:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Webmaster60

I think we're saying the same thing.. It seems we're having trpuble defining "Limit".

A limit (to me) is something that an "s" type has imposed, or attempts to impose area's that may not be encroached.. I'm talking the normal limit stuff (scat, pee, blood etc etc etc..) These are meant to be pushed by a Master.. Always. Not again, depending on WHY its a limit determines the amount of care and consideration IN pushing that limit.

The other things you're speaking of.. Health concerns (not condoms), dietary concerns.. I don't see these as limits.. Yes, they may limit a person's interaction in certain ways ergo limit.. to be limited.. (and these are meant to be observed and reinforced by the Master) But the other stuff.. limits, things coming form "Off limits" are temporary barriers to be torn down. So I THINK we are in agreement.


I think we might be as well, but again, I think you're thinking too narowly in terms of limits.

Because the majority of people use "limits" to mean "stuff I won't do." I prefer to keep it in that conext. My limits are things I won't do, regardless of the reason--I won't stop taking my pills for health reasons, I won't kill someone for moral reasons. They are limits.

You say "normal limit stuff." For me, that comes down to scat/kids/animals. Yup, those rae very firmly on my limit list for health and moral reasons, again.

I guess what i'm saying is that I'd like to push for a revision of the way the term "limit" is used. To me, limits are things that either party, regardless of orientation, refuses to do. Period. No pushing, no testing, no nothing. Dominant people have limits as well.

I like the term boundaries. That's a good way to distiguish. To me, boundaries are the stuff you'd prefer not to do, but don't say "no. period." If you want to equate to the fetish checklist, boundaries are the 5 box, but not the "no" box.

I'd argue that boundaries aren't "meant" to be pushed any more than anything else is. For example, are submissive people meant to push their dominant people's boundaries? Should I push my dominant person to get invovled in heavy pain play? It's a boundary for him, he doesn't really dig it. But if it's a boundary, it's meant to be pushed, right?

I think the idea that we MUST push at the things we dislike isn't very well founded. I can understand if a dominant person enjoys the act and the submissive person doesn't--then you're pushing in order to be more pleasing to teh dominant person. But if both parties don't enjoy the act? If the dominant person doesn't enjoy it? Why push it? Why not spend the time enjoying the things they do enjoy.

The obession with pushing and expanding confuses me, as does the idea that without the pushing of boundaries there is no growth as a couple. There are SO many areas in which we can expand. The couple could take cooking classes, for example, or learn how to build houses, or voluneteer at a soup kitchen. Definatly growing and expanding, but not pushing things they aren't interested in doing. Even if we were to say that without pushing boundaries there is no sexual growth or growth of power play within the relationship, I think that we'd be wrong. Even within a vanilla sexual realtionship, where boundaries aren't pushed, there are nearly always new things to explore. Hell, if it comes down to get, buy a sex manual and work your way through at a page a night!

I think this is something Emerald was comenting on as well. The idea of pushing boundaries has become fetishized. Sure, that's great if it's your fetish, but we're teaching newcomers on both sides of the fence that they MUST push and expand, regardless if they're enjoying the pushing and expanding.



starshineowned -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/5/2005 9:54:28 AM)

Greetings..~smiles~

Think this debate is like opening pandora's box. It is my understanding that within the context of BDSM, Gorean, Whatever..when you refer to limits you are referring to kinks, fetish's that are common place and acceptable within this community.

When a Dominant asks me what my limits are or what I think my limits are..I don't start blurting out..oh well I can't eat sugar i'm diabetic, I won't eat mushrooms cause they are just gross, I don't do toilets either because it's icky.

What the heck ..lol

You know..some things are just common sense understandings and parts of life. If you want to push your Dominants "boundrys" then why are you even in a power exchange relationship as a submissive? If you don't want to control and push to expand your submissive's "boundry's" for growth then why are you in a power exchange relationship?

You can easily just be "gag" vanilla, and play in fantasy land with your spouse or partner, and spanky spanky on friday night, and on saturday go take that cooking class together.

Sorry but trying to drag everyday average ordinary life existence situations into wiitwd when simple common sense dictates..is just out there.

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin



SirSix72 -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/5/2005 10:04:48 AM)

Gretings,

I cant agree with you more starshinedowned. I do see alot of people dragging everyday issues into BDSM and saying that they are limits. I think that lots are weekend warriors which is ok with me. The eating sugar because I have diabetes thing as a limit made me fall off my chair laughing.

Master Six



TheChastiser -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/5/2005 10:13:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceinMD

Thank You for your attention and answers to this question. i have read several posts that say limits are something that everyone has and that it is normal to have them. My question to You is:
Would you accept certain limits and feel ok with them, or do you feel that your submissive should give complete trust in their Master to know what is best for them and therefore should not have limits. If you have a submissive with no limits how do You feel about them, do You know certain things are hot spots and stay away from them? Would You rather be told up front during negotiation what their limits are so that You know in advance? i have had several Dominants tell me that true subs don't have any limits (and by that token, how do you proceed?). Thank You for Your input.[:D]


everyone has limits, a sub has their own, that should be discussed prior to starting a relationship. a slave has non of her own but does indeed have the limits of her master.

Mike




KittenWithaTwist -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/5/2005 10:15:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

Greetings..~smiles~

Think this debate is like opening pandora's box. It is my understanding that within the context of BDSM, Gorean, Whatever..when you refer to limits you are referring to kinks, fetish's that are common place and acceptable within this community.

When a Dominant asks me what my limits are or what I think my limits are..I don't start blurting out..oh well I can't eat sugar i'm diabetic, I won't eat mushrooms cause they are just gross, I don't do toilets either because it's icky.

What the heck ..lol

You know..some things are just common sense understandings and parts of life. If you want to push your Dominants "boundrys" then why are you even in a power exchange relationship as a submissive? If you don't want to control and push to expand your submissive's "boundry's" for growth then why are you in a power exchange relationship?

You can easily just be "gag" vanilla, and play in fantasy land with your spouse or partner, and spanky spanky on friday night, and on saturday go take that cooking class together.

Sorry but trying to drag everyday average ordinary life existence situations into wiitwd when simple common sense dictates..is just out there.

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin


Okay, then try this for a limit.

Say you were raped. Say you were raped orally by a person you trusted or liked or were friends with or dated. Say that that happening to you means you will not, never, ever, ever want to give oral sex again. Ever. Period.

That's a limit.

That's a limit that isn't pushed. Screw emotional growth. It takes more than trust in your partner to "get over" something like that, or even something similar. Yes, it's part of your life. It's unrelated to bdsm specifically. But it is a part of someone's sex life, and it may be something that someone may never wish to do.

Should that limit prevent, say, a slave from being a slave full time? Should it prevent a submissive from being in a TPE relationship, or what-have-you?

I hate to use such a triggering example, and I'm sorry to anyone who is in that specific situation. But that is an emotional boundary and a hard limit. And it's perfectly valid.



KittenWithaTwist -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/5/2005 10:27:30 AM)

Further, as I recall, this original post was about "true subs" having no limits. The point that, I hope, some of us are trying to reach is that *everyone* has limitations. For one thing, we're only human. We have taboos and morals and values and ick factors. For instance, I have a limit that everyone I have a relationship with has an age of consent limit, and a gerbils/hamsters/mice/rats/snakes up various orifices limit, and a vomit/scat play in public limit.

I bet some of the dominants here who go on and on and on about pushing the limitations of their submissives are unwilling to push their own limitations. I know that my own Master has a limit on gay anal sex. He won't penetrate a man's anus and he won't have his own penetrated by another man. Hey look! It's a limit! He also won't be submissive. As far as I know, he'll never push those limits and I wouldn't expect him to. The only boundaries and fears that he'll push me to overcome are the ones that he knows I would enjoy if I did overcome them. He isn't pushing me just to push me, and personally, I don't agree with doing so.

If you don't want to do something because it hurts you, emotionally, physically, psychologically, or philosophically, you shouldn't be forced to do it by someone who cares for your wellbeing.



Domasaurus -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/5/2005 1:31:12 PM)

quote:

The only boundaries and fears that he'll push me to overcome are the ones that he knows I would enjoy if I did overcome them. He isn't pushing me just to push me, and personally, I don't agree with doing so.


Hear hear....that is exactly what it about - pushing a limit...just cause you can is borderline abuse, and I am talking D/s here. Any sub who is not growing or being nurtured in a relationship is missing out.

Subs need to be cared for in many the same ways we treat our children. We create challengers, nuture them through difficult situations... Say a child has a fear of the dark. Do we lock them in a dark box? No we help them through that fear...dispell it almost...show them there is nothing to fear.

Same with a sub..say they are scared of the dark. What is gained by puting them in the dark box...nothing except a short cut to mental imbalance.



starshineowned -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/5/2005 1:31:54 PM)

quote:

Should that limit prevent, say, a slave from being a slave full time? Should it prevent a submissive from being in a TPE relationship, or what-have-you?



No but if it is a limit for her then she needs to seek out a Owner that understands this, and choose wisely. If her Owner then in due time of more trust having been built wishes to confront this "limit" via speaking about it or even just periodically letting her know that he is available and listening if she ever feels the need to talk about this or even having her see a licensed councelor at somepoint..Then these are still ways of "pushing the limit", and yes you bet I would hope they would.

Why?

Because it's a situation that is limiting the submissive person..not so much in a sexual way but emotionally..and wether that Owner ever cared to have a bj or not..most Owners that understand will go out of there way to try and fix their property's troubles.

Is that such a bad thing?

This might upset some or might make some think I don't know..But such issues as these that a person might have is a very good reason to be careful about how you label or address yourself, and what your seeking in a Owner.
You want to be a submissive person, and live 24/7 where you do retain some control, then so be it.
But if your going to say your a slave, then you should be prepared to understand that you are forfeiting All your rights to make any decisions for your life from that point on. If your Owner gives you some freedoms or priveledges then yes you may have them but they are not of your doing.
What that boils down to is again...be very careful about who you choose to submit to and in what capacity you are doing it.

This is also to say that some Owners will and some Owners won't push on some limits. That is up to the dynamic of the relationship of the people involved.

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin



perverseangelic -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/5/2005 2:16:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned
You know..some things are just common sense understandings and parts of life.


Thing is, those common sense things aren't the same for everyone. What I find to be common sense is exactly the opposite for some people. I find it easier to be very very clear, and have an understanding of what could be asked of me if I said I would do anything.

quote:


If you want to push your Dominants "boundrys" then why are you even in a power exchange relationship as a submissive? If you don't want to control and push to expand your submissive's "boundry's" for growth then why are you in a power exchange relationship?


Why push sexual boundaries? Why not grow in other areas?

What was said before was that all boundaries are meant to be pushed. To me, that reads that a dominant persons' boundaries are meant to be pushed as well. That was why I included expanding dominant people's boundaries.

We'll narrow it down and say that only submissive people's boundaries need to be pushed. Say the dominant person doesn't -want- to push that boundary? Should it be pushed because it's there,e ven if the dominant person doesn't desire to?

People invovled in power play aren't -required- to expand their partner's boundaries to be considered to be invovled in bdsm. For example, a couple has never been invovled with watersports. It isn't a limit for anyone involved, but the dominant person just plain isn't into it. The fact that the dominant person doesn't push that boundary doesn't degrade their dynamic.

Say the submissive person is willing and eager to try much more than the dominant person wants to. IN that case, there's no boundaries to push, because when the dominant person wants to do something, there is no resistance at all, in fact, it's met with enthusiasm. Is their relationship less of a power dynamic becuase the submissive person wants to do more than the dominant person? The bottom still obeys the top and belongs to her/him. The bottom simply has no boundaries for the top to push, because the top's own boundaries fall far inside the bottoms.

quote:


You can easily just be "gag" vanilla, and play in fantasy land with your spouse or partner, and spanky spanky on friday night, and on saturday go take that cooking class together.


Sure, and you can also order your property to go take a cooking class, just as easily as you can tell her to drink your urine.

what I'm trying to say is that there are MANY arenas to grow in, and that not all of them invovle the whips and chains aspect of WIITWD.

I have trouble understandign the facination with expanding boundaries, becuse there are situations where couples are perfectly content with the sexual, or s&m or what have you boundaries where they are. Being content with one aspect of a relationship doesn't limit or halt growth. Growth just gets dirrected into a different area.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Limits/No Limits (11/5/2005 2:18:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Domasaurus
Hear hear....that is exactly what it about - pushing a limit...

Umm not in any of my relationships.

quote:

Any sub who is not growing or being nurtured in a relationship is missing out.

Why are you equating nurturing and growing to pushing limits? And dominants and vanillas should grow and nurture as well, and they aren't necessarily pushing limits.
quote:


Subs need to be cared for in many the same ways we treat our children.

Or not...they can be treated just like any other adult and expected to be responsible.

quote:


Same with a sub..say they are scared of the dark. What is gained by puting them in the dark box...nothing except a short cut to mental imbalance.

What do we do with a dom who is afraid of the dark? Sometimes nothing.

If a relationship wants to push a comfort level, great. I think the obsession and focus on it is unhealthy. And I think to imply that if you aren't pushing limits that you are somehow stagnant is false.



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