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Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/19/2008 10:14:37 PM   
MrFester


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Okay.  So I have a sub friend that has been on the bdsm scene for almost ten years of experience as a full lifestyle sub.  My wife, whom I love dramatically, and I have started to get into the bdsm scene and things are progressing steadily but slowly.  I feel one of the problems we have is that she doesn't know what I mean by being a sub and the other major problem is that I am still in inner turmoil about what it's "Okay" to feel.  Now, here's where the dilemma come in.  My sub friend, who is a friend of my wife's as well, is coming over to talk to her, try to help teach her.  She says she's going to come in "in role" and address me correctly from her knees and avoiding eye contact and so on.  I'm kind of freaking out.  I am really excited for this to happen, even though I know it's only a role play with her.  I am so excited that I am actually getting turned on thinking about it.  Is this normal?  I truly hope so because I get an adrenaline rush just sitting here.

The other big question I have is how far do i go with it?  The other sub and I have spoken and there are no boundaries there, at least not any that I could ever willingly cross.  My wife and I have spoken as well, and she says she is comfortable with watching another woman receive my attention.  she wants this to be part of her training, so I feel as though I should take it all.  Is this something there should be a safe word for? 
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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/19/2008 10:18:35 PM   
lilabbotsfordgrl


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Seems normal, yup! 
Why not just keep it fairly simple.  Try and relax, do a few simple things like have her position herself for you, have her fetch you a drink, have her give a little talk about something that interests you, and then sit down for a chat (perhaps with the girls at your feet).  Do what's natural and normal and don't go to far right away.  It could lead to better things down the road, who knows.  I doubt you'd need a safeword, if you're not doing anything extreme or even moderate.

(in reply to MrFester)
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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/19/2008 10:22:46 PM   
GreedyTop


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maybe give your wife a safeword so if at any point she becomes uncomfortable with the situation, you can all stop  and talk about it.

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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/19/2008 10:39:00 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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I think the problem is that everyone in this scenario is buying into the idea that there is a right and proper way to do things.

Your wife doesn't know what you mean by being a sub?  Tell her, communicate to her.  I see you both making posts 2 weeks after discovering everything and asking how on earth to do it- where's the talk between you both?  Why aren't you spending so much time TOGETHER exploring?

What is addressing correctly?  I know a slave who calls her master "Mastermuffin" and they both love it.  Many slaves never kneel, and many find avoiding eye contact silly and stupid.

Not that she can't learn much from observing how others do things, but I can almost see you licking your lips in anticipation of this, and if you want this to be an opportunity for you and your wife to grow closer, I really don't see how this will give you that result.

Why not just make it a dinner together and discuss amongst the three of you openly?  You're beginning to get serious signs of frenzy AND Tops Disease and it's better to go slow and make sure everyone can catch up to the same page rather than regret later.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 6/19/2008 10:40:42 PM >


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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 12:15:26 AM   
proudsub


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 What she said.

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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 7:16:30 AM   
MasterHermes


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From what you tell it sounds like a some fantasy you share with your wife for spicing up your adult life a little bit, which is a great thing if you both are comfortable with it and in this case of course it is perfectly normal for you to get excited by it. There, on the other hand, is a difference between adding fantasy play in your life and re-discovering yourselves in the context of power exchange. If it is your desire to discover yourselves , what you described is not way to go.

I am sensing "the idea of it" excites you and your wife wants to participate this fantasy. So without making things get complicated you and your wife can share about your fantasies and add the ones you are comfortable with to your adult life. The event you planned sounds like a step to it.

I only would like to warn you over one thing. As much as you love your wife dramatically, there is a danger of getting a fast and big ego boost from these new things you discover together and making some stupid decisions you would think you never can do. Do not forget you will not get stronger, more important or better than you already are at the end of it.

Good luck & Enjoy it
Hermes

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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 9:39:11 AM   
DesFIP


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Train wreck waiting to happen.

Does your wife know this other woman is going to submit to you? Is she interested in spending her time on her knees never making eye contact?

What if your wife laughs hysterically at the idea of never looking you in the eye? What if her knees hurt when she kneels? What if this is just not an authentic way of relating for her? In that case you're telling her that if this one true way isn't something she is drawn to, then she's been lying to you when she said she felt submissive.

Forget the fantasy. Forget what works for your friend, especially if you've got a fantasy of this friend joining the family. Talk to your wife and ask her how she sees it as doable for her. Really think she should be on her knees requesting permission to speak when there's a pipe broken and water pouring through the house?

Because although this may work great for the friend, it may be totally not what works for her. And the only person who can tell you how she feels about something is her. I doubt she'll be able to tell you how much she dislikes it when you're having the friend do all this stuff and telling wifey that she needs to imitate friend, when you are in effect telling your wife that the person she is is someone who doesn't do it for you.

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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 9:46:17 AM   
camille65


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Train wreck waiting to happen.

Does your wife know this other woman is going to submit to you? Is she interested in spending her time on her knees never making eye contact?

What if your wife laughs hysterically at the idea of never looking you in the eye? What if her knees hurt when she kneels? What if this is just not an authentic way of relating for her? In that case you're telling her that if this one true way isn't something she is drawn to, then she's been lying to you when she said she felt submissive.

Forget the fantasy. Forget what works for your friend, especially if you've got a fantasy of this friend joining the family to your wife and ask her how she sees it as doable for her. Really think she should be on her knees requesting permission to speak when there's a pipe broken and water pouring through the house?

Because although this may work great for the friend, it may be totally not what works for her. And the only person who can tell you how she feels about something is her. I doubt she'll be able to tell you how much she dislikes it when you're having the friend do all this stuff and telling wifey that she needs to imitate friend, when you are in effect telling your wife that the person she is is someone who doesn't do it for you.


I find this post to be, um.. odd.
He explained that his wife is aware of the sub coming in for a demo so it isn't likely she will laugh hysterically etc etc.


As to if the feelings are normal?
I sure think so! You're excited and anticipating a long held fantasy, just make sure you remember that things that happen in the real world are not the same things as inside your head.

How far should you go?
In my opinion, not very far. This is after all another woman and your wife will be there. Unless your wife is okay with you not only being sexually aroused by another woman but also open to it being reciprocated then.. I would keep it non sexual.

I would also keep it casual and low key. Watch for reaction from your wife and call a halt if things get uncomfortable for her. Will she be okay with speaking up while this is going on if it goes too far in her mind?
Have you talked about how far to take it? You should sit down with her and let her know she has the power to say 'halt' or 'stop'.

I hope it works and that you both gain from the experience but be careful of everyones feelings and reactions.


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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 12:37:58 PM   
NeedingMore220


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The issue I see here is that your wife doesn't know what it means to be 'a sub'.  I don't think a demonstration by someone who has experience is going to hurt anything, but it may not really show her anything either, except how one person shows her submissive nature.  You need to determine how it is you wish your submissive to act, and give her the instructions and help her understand what it is you wish of her and what it is you wish her to get out of your new dynamic.  Of course, this will probably be fun for you to have someone kneeling at your feet for the first time - it may be a real rush for you.  I'd be careful about anything of a sexual nature - your wife may not be comfortable with the thought of you being turned on by another woman, let alone if any touching occurs.

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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 1:29:48 PM   
Darkeyes83


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Just remember which head holds your brain, and make sure that's the one that's doing the thinking. I'm in a sorta similar situation, in that my girlfriend of almost a year now and I are getting into the lifestyle, atleast on a bedroom level.  She actually has more experience than me(she dated a Dom for a year. Not necessarily a good one, from what I've heard, but she enjoys being submissive on an intimate level). We're actually going to try our first lifestyle roleplay tomorrow.

Now where I said I'm in a similar situation is this: She's into more open, if you will, activities(by this, I mean threesomes, couples, etc.), and again, has more experience than I do in this matter.  Now, I have a friend(plutonic) who's been in the lifestyle for years, and who is open to the idea of a threesome as well. The two don't know eachother yet, but presumably will eventually meet, and maybe even scene together.  I won't lie, I've been salivating over the idea of having a hand in each of them and conducting my own puppet show(with scripts and everything). But I know that reality is generally far form fantasy, so I keep those fantasies to myself for the time being, and enjoy them in their own right.  If the situation ever develops to the point where one of those fantasies can become reality without treading on the happiness of my girlfriend or myself, or the wellbeing of our relationship, then by all means I plan to speak up.

Just remember, just because someone agrees to something, doesn't mean they're comfortable with it, or even if they think they are, it might turn out to be otherwise when it actually happens.

(in reply to NeedingMore220)
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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 2:29:04 PM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFester

I feel one of the problems we have is that she doesn't know what I mean by being a sub and the other major problem is that I am still in inner turmoil about what it's "Okay" to feel. 


It seems to me that these two huge issues should be investigated, discussed, parsed and experimented with before a third party sub participates. It's one thing to have a discussion with others, but it doesn't seem to me that this is the direction from which the "teaching" of this sub will be coming.  

What I hear is that you have a sub coming over to teach not only your wife "how to be a sub," but by extension, she'll also be teaching you how to be a Dom--only she will be teaching you how to be her Dom. Dangerous, I'm thinking. 

If she doesn't understand what you mean by being a sub, your wife is consenting to something she doesn't understand; therefore, I don't think she can really give consent.

You're very excited about receiving submission from another woman (even if only for this one night), in order to expand or enhance the relationship with the woman you love "dramatically." This is what you mean by wondering "what is okay to feel?" I would say it's not right or wrong. I think it's perfectly understandable...but ill advised.

Does she come to the boards? There is so much knowledge here! There are several good books too, and reading them together and learning together will go far to investigate and inform the kind of Dom you want to be and, to my mind a much more natural extension, how she would like to be your sub.

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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 2:55:19 PM   
AtlantisKing111


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Seems normal to me too.  I love it when a slave kneels, addresses me as Master and does the whole "avoid eye contact" protocol.

(in reply to MrFester)
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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 3:33:52 PM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65


He explained that his wife is aware of the sub coming in for a demo.



He said he has the friend coming over to show her what she's doing wrong, but does not specifically mention that she knows about it. Besides that, telling her the other woman is doing everything right while she's a wannabe is not the way to encourage her. He's setting it up so she sees herself as a failure as a sub.

Doesn't seem to realize that it takes two to tango and that if she is going to submit, then he needs to inspire her submission. Can the friend explain what the wife needs? No, and doesn't sound like he wants to spend the time talking to his wife to find out. He just wants her to fulfill his fantasies without discovering what hers are, and if they are compatible.

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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 4:01:46 PM   
Darkeyes83


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Two books that were recommended to me, that I'm picking up this weekend, are SM-101, by Jay Wiseman, and Screw the roses, send me the thorns, by phillip millar/molly devon.  I've read the descriptions for them(online, I'm picking them up instore though), and it seems pretty comprehensive.

Noticing, though, some of what the op said, does set off all sorts of warning bells for me, and I know alot of people on here have mentioned it in one way or another.  If she doesn't know what being a sub is, how come her Dom is unable to teach her how to be HIS sub? Why would he need someone else to come in? IF he wanted to do something like that, and he lacks the experience himself to be able to teach her what his brand/her brand of submission is, then he should invite over a Dom AND sub couple, and let her ask them questions, and maybe demo some of their intricate relationship activities.  But there would still need to be a reminder that that's just ONE brand, specific to that couple, and that it's not an all or nothing deal.  That she should negotiate her limits, to what she's comfortable, and more importantly, happy and fulfilled by. It's just as important for him to respect those limits and know that he can't have it all his way, that he has to taylor his ability to Dom to her limits, and if he can't do so, then neither of them will be happy, and infact by introducing such a lifestyle dynamic into their marriage because he wanted to have something he didn't currently have, he might ruin his marriage.

Worst case scenario, that he does have his sub friend come over(when you generally shouldn't be introducing third parties into something until it's got stable footing), even if she does her brand of subbing upon arrival(though why a sub would submit to someone not their Dom, and where's the friend's Dom(if the friend is so experienced, you would think the friend and/or their Dom would have suggested such already), He should be able to negotiate what they do, what they go over, what he expects similar and different from what she currently does(and thus what he would expect his wife to do) along with the limits, both for the sub friend, himself, and his wife upon how far the scene would go(whether or not it would enter the bedroom, for example). 

If they've been doing it for a little while(his wife and himself doing the lifestyle, that is), why has he not setup some form of obedience training/punishment system in order to train her? Isn't this one of the first things a D/s relationship generally does? Set the limits, manage the behaviors, and then enjoy the rewards?  I'm not saying he has to beat her, or use restraints and a cattle prod to teach her the positions(if he so chooses to use such methods of D/s as positions), or that he suspend her via rearward tied arms everytime she forgets to say 'sir' or whatever moniker they've decided on(In my own case, my girlfriend earlyon gave me the nickname of 'Babykins'. yeah. I don't think she'll ever stop calling me that, but I'll wear it with pride, for it's what she chose for me.), but maybe a mild spanking, or a gently reminding correction, or some other form of obedience play could be used.

Granted, I have very little personal experience on the D/s relationship, most of what I know is from Q/A with people in chats, emails, forums, reading books, and observation, both real life and online, of how people behave. Not to mention the use of what I would like to believe is an average to slightly above average intellect in the areas of problem solving and deductive reasoning.

(in reply to DesFIP)
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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 4:05:29 PM   
Darkeyes83


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Btw, if I'm wrong on any of what I said(though in all things, especially the 'norm' for a relationship, there is always the crow left of the murder), or someone wants to correct me, please, by all means, do so.  I have no problems with criticism, and love to debate ideas, philosophies, etc.  If I'm wrong, I'd like to know it, so that I'm not wrong in the future.

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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 4:15:11 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkeyes83
Isn't this one of the first things a D/s relationship generally does? Set the limits, manage the behaviors, and then enjoy the rewards?

No, not really, not in any specific sense at least.  It's much more a getting to know you, try things out, discuss, mold together sort of deal.  All of those things you mentioned are involved, but not in any clearly outlined form or sequence- that's totally dependent on the relationship.


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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 4:33:12 PM   
Darkeyes83


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So, you've never said when you first started a relationship with someone and they ask you what you like, something along the lines of 'you can tie me up and drown me in wax, but I don't do whips or canes, and you better get me off?'

It's been my experience in just about every relationship of an intimate nature that I've had(all vanilla, mind you), that within the first night of intimacy, I know what they will do, won't do, love, like, are okay with,  and what they expect from me.  But then I haven't been known to beat around the bush, I like to know my perimeters, so that I can get creative inside of them.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 4:54:30 PM   
peppermint


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Stop...slow down.  Have you and your experienced submissive friend explained to your wife that there is no "one" way to be a submissive...that each submissive has her own style...that kneeling or eye restriction may or may not be a part of dynamic you and she will want to be involved with....and that having no desire to do those actions has no bearing on whether she is a good or bad submissive...that you are bringing in your friend/experienced submissive to allow your wife to see one aspect of the dynamic and discuss others???  You don't need another person to tell you what you need to be doing.  You're supposed to be the Dom.  You figure it out.  There is no Dominant Handbook that will answer all your questions nor is there a one right way to do everything.  The idea is that YOU figure out what YOU and your submissive are seeking and figure out how to get there. 

I'll bet your wife is a better submissive for you and better trained than your friend with her 10 years of experience.  Which one knows how you like your coffee prepared?  Which one knows what foods you prefer?  Which one gets up while you watch TV at night to get you a drink?  Which one washes your clothes?  Which one takes care of your UMs and is a role model for them? 

Getting involved with your local munch group is a plus.  Ordering the books to read is another plus.  Trying to locate a submissve to be your third and guinea pig so you can practice while your wife watches is a minus.  Not communicating in what direction you want your relationship with your wife to evolve is another minus. 

You've known about the lifestyle for a whole 4 weeks.  Don't rush into activities until you understand the consequences.  One little step at a time is the best way even though you are impatient to do more..and do it NOW!!! 

edited to correct spelling...sheesh

< Message edited by peppermint -- 6/20/2008 4:58:12 PM >

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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 5:13:30 PM   
NeedingMore220


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkeyes83

So, you've never said when you first started a relationship with someone and they ask you what you like, something along the lines of 'you can tie me up and drown me in wax, but I don't do whips or canes, and you better get me off?'

It's been my experience in just about every relationship of an intimate nature that I've had(all vanilla, mind you), that within the first night of intimacy, I know what they will do, won't do, love, like, are okay with,  and what they expect from me.  But then I haven't been known to beat around the bush, I like to know my perimeters, so that I can get creative inside of them.


It's nowhere near as cut and dry as you describe, at least not for me and whomever I am with.  There are nuances.  Sure we have the basic conversation - what do you like, etc.  But it takes time to learn a person and their preferences.  The path to discovery within a relationship can be beautiful - each time finding out something new about the other person to enjoy.  And not just sexually either - learning their personality, reactions, pleasures and disappointments.   

This couple is very new (2 weeks, I believe) into learning about D/s.  It took me almost a year of personal introspection to understand a lot about myself and how what I knew of myself and was discovering fit into this new world before I even reached out to speak with anyone about it. 

I understand this situation is an attempt at understanding, and I wish them well with it.  But they both have to understand what it is about D/s that appeals to them.  And the have a lot of open communication about how they are going to build it into their marriage.  I believe it must be very difficult, indeed, to change dynamics in the middle of a relationship, especially with 3 kids like they have. They have a lot of ingrained patterns between themselves that will have to be adjusted and they will have to be very open and understanding with one another to make it work.  BUT if they can make it work, it just may be their ticket to lifetime contentment. 

< Message edited by NeedingMore220 -- 6/20/2008 5:14:58 PM >

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RE: Interesting situation Coming Soon:Advice needed - 6/20/2008 5:34:18 PM   
Darkeyes83


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I know I probably make things sound so cleancut, and truly they never are, but I'm a simplist, and have literally had those conversations of the do's and don'ts', and prettywell jumped into it.  Sure, you learn the intricacies of someone's body and soul down the road, but while it takes time to sculpt a fine statue, your biggest shaping goes on early on. It's only later into the sculpting that you add the fine details that truly bring it to life.

BTW, just because that's the kind of guy I am, that statement about wax and canes was actually taylored specifically towards LuckyAlbatross, figured it might get my point across slightly better, if I managed to land something that might have actually passed through her lips.

(in reply to NeedingMore220)
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