RE: A Gift??? (Full Version)

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Tapestry -> RE: A Gift??? (11/6/2005 11:21:31 AM)

i agree that this is who i am - deep inside, my personality, whether i acknowledge it or not, it's there.
but
i think that the idea of the gift comes into play because
it is my choice whom i will submit myself to
and when i have been sufficiently wooed and courted and reassured to the point that i am willing to submit, at that point, i am offering my deepest self, and in that respect, yes it's a gift.
and yes, sadly, the gift does not have to be accepted
but it was my choice to offer it
for no Dom or Master can actually control what I don't allow him to,
hence the reason this is called transferring my power...it's mine to give away
and yes, i will, one way or another, find a Dom to transfer that power to
because it is an important part of me



theRose4U -> RE: A Gift??? (11/6/2005 12:59:22 PM)

quote:

I dont believe in the "gift of submission" idea. To me, it sounds like telling someone they should be grateful they are lucky enough to have you. Way too egomaniacal for my tastes.


Why would a Dom/me or sub NOT be greatful to have someone that loves, values and supports them for who & what they are?

quote:

For me, submission is probably the single most self-serving thing I can do. It feeds a need in ME, not Him, and if I didn't get something out of it, I wouldn't do it. If He did not dominate in return for my submission, I would not be His slave. I keep His house and cook His meals and do His laundry and feed His dog because I know that when He comes home He's going to give me what I need in order to feel like His slave, and that if He did not, I would not be doing those things "for Him." How much more selfish can that possibly be?


I understand the point of saying that this is selfish because it fills a need within you but is it any less selfish for a Master or Mistress to feel forfilled by having one that is obedient, helpful, and devoted at their feet? I think that beth has a good point:

quote:

this slave thanks Master often for giving her the gift of ACCEPTING her submission to Him, but then this slave is a thankful sort and so is Master: we see every day together as a much appreciated gift.


Having a sub and especially a slave to manage is a lot of work but the rewards for both parties are what you make of them. I think the reality is that if the rewards of a relationship for all parties do not outweigh the burdons people would not be doing WIITWD.



wipmebeetme100 -> RE: A Gift??? (11/6/2005 2:02:18 PM)

quote:

For me, submission is probably the single most self-serving thing I can do. It feeds a need in ME, not Him, and if I didn't get something out of it, I wouldn't do it. If He did not dominate in return for my submission, I would not be His slave. I keep His house and cook His meals and do His laundry and feed His dog because I know that when He comes home He's going to give me what I need in order to feel like His slave, and that if He did not, I would not be doing those things "for Him." How much more selfish can that possibly be?


You GO GIRL!!! I could not have said it better myself.



lonewolf05 -> RE: A Gift??? (11/6/2005 8:37:45 PM)

gift...hmmmmm.........maybe in offering my domestic services out of the goodness of heart could be a gift? it isn't like i have any "bonding" going on like MOST people think of the word.
i could just as well.....go down the road to someone else fore the same package.....no sex no s/m. no romance no involvement........no ties.........just the verbal agreement i am here to do whatever in domestic service to make Her life easier........

so m a y b e it could be........a gift.

not like i am being paid for it........and all my money goes from my bank acct to Hers.......i pay my own way......

but if someone figures it is not..............a gift..............then what do you call love romance????? isn't love............an emotional gift?

dunno. you go figure.

wolf



MasterEsqMDsgirl -> RE: A Gift??? (11/8/2005 8:08:49 PM)

Gift...? What the hell gift am i supposedly giving that is so dang special? If anyone provides any resemblance to a gift it is my Master as he is allowing me to be myself. Without him, i am just another woman who walks the earth. Besides, the notion submission is a gift is much like saying - now here is my gift dammit, now YOU owe me.



pet4mymaster -> RE: A Gift??? (11/9/2005 5:26:28 AM)

i want to thank all who have posted as this is the exact difference of opionin i was hoping to receive...you have all given very good points and i thank you for your views

Serving Sir Now and ALWAYS



candystripper -> RE: A Gift??? (11/9/2005 5:46:30 AM)

i must be a bit dim, because i never could understand the height of emotion this question arouses in members....anymore than the apparently eternal question "submissive v slave". It doesn't seem to me that using the "gift" methaphor advances the discussion between a Dom or Master and submissive or slave as they attempt to come together or discover one another in a search. On the other hand, if it helps someone else to use the "gift" methaphor, hey, go for it. It doesn't have any impact on me one way or another.

Occassionally i receive email from Men, referring to the "gift of submission" which they promise to "treasure" always. i find it just a bit of fluff; it doesn't tell me anything about the Man's Character or how he plans to conduct himself with a submissive. Then there are the emails that tell me "you are a true slave". Well, again, it doesn't tell me anything about the Man nor about the relationship he seeks; so it's a bit of extraneous fluff.

When i find my One, He can call me a "gift" if He chooses. i couldn't care less. Usage of this metaphor will not ever be a part of my assessment of a Man.

candystripper



MasterEsqMDsgirl -> RE: A Gift??? (11/9/2005 7:50:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

i must be a bit dim, because i never could understand the height of emotion this question arouses in members....anymore than the apparently eternal question "submissive v slave". It doesn't seem to me that using the "gift" methaphor advances the discussion between a Dom or Master and submissive or slave as they attempt to come together or discover one another in a search. On the other hand, if it helps someone else to use the "gift" methaphor, hey, go for it. It doesn't have any impact on me one way or another.

candystripper


i would guess the issue may actually be - why does ones submission need to be justified as a "gift"?



krys -> RE: A Gift??? (11/9/2005 9:21:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

Why would a Dom/me or sub NOT be greatful to have someone that loves, values and supports them for who & what they are?


Why should they have to grovel for it? I find it unattractive as an attitude.



krazysubbiekat -> RE: A Gift??? (11/9/2005 10:41:19 PM)

I think of the exchange between a D type and an s type to be a flow of energy...it goes both ways. If I am gifting him with my submission, isn't he also gifting me with his dominance? Personally, I don't suscribe to the gift perspective, but then I also don't involve myself in the "sub vs. slave" debate. I am not at all comfortable defining things outside of my relationships.



Tapestry -> RE: A Gift??? (11/10/2005 2:55:07 AM)

One thing that seems to jump out at me is the difference with which we view or define the word gift.

I have never given a gift to someone that had strings attached, or for which I expected something in return, or for which they had to be grateful. That's not the tradition I was brought up in, and so is not a way that I view giving of myself either.

To me a gift can be a remembrance, a way of honoring someone, it can be a gift of Appreciation or Thanks, a way of recognizing a person. But in neither of those instances would I expect the person to be grateful, indeed it is me expressing gratitude with the giving.

The other type of gift is a gift of love. This is the most meaningful of course, and again, carries with it no strings, no expectations, but only a wish and desire to express an emotion, that of love and adoration. At no time for me, has the gift ever been intended to make someone behave a certain way or feel appropriately grateful, or any other negative thing.

Because I can't think of any "differing" opinion I've read here that I don't agree with - the point being that I think we've been speaking of gifts from different definitions of the word.

tapestry



plantlady64 -> RE: A Gift??? (11/10/2005 11:59:20 AM)

Hello There,
I agree many feel both ways about submission being a gift. My Master and I feel it is indeed a great gift for someone to submit their will under anothers.
My Master's been a Dom over 25 years, and he still thanks me daily for being such a devoted and well behaved slave.
I also thank all the Doms I play with for their time and attention as I feel the gift is on both sides.
We give the gift of submission and they give the gift of Dominant Leadership in my opinion.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne



theRose4U -> RE: A Gift??? (11/11/2005 4:45:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: krys

quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

Why would a Dom/me or sub NOT be greatful to have someone that loves, values and supports them for who & what they are?


Why should they have to grovel for it? I find it unattractive as an attitude.


Not sure how you relate being greatful for finding what you seek with groveling?



slavedesires -> RE: A Gift??? (11/12/2005 5:41:13 AM)

[8D]



slavedesires -> RE: A Gift??? (11/12/2005 6:05:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterEsqMDsgirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

i must be a bit dim, because i never could understand the height of emotion this question arouses in members....anymore than the apparently eternal question "submissive v slave". It doesn't seem to me that using the "gift" methaphor advances the discussion between a Dom or Master and submissive or slave as they attempt to come together or discover one another in a search. On the other hand, if it helps someone else to use the "gift" methaphor, hey, go for it. It doesn't have any impact on me one way or another.

candystripper


i would guess the issue may actually be - why does ones submission need to be justified as a "gift"?



Plenty of educational sites that are common to newbies or sites given to newbies to learn from (we know the first one that comes to mind), "educate" the sub that submission is a gift.
If someone believes in the gift theory, let them. If they want to bicker about why submision is or is not a gift...we have a choice, ignore them or join in.


quote:

ORIGINAL: krys

quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

Why would a Dom/me or sub NOT be greatful to have someone that loves, values and supports them for who & what they are?


Why should they have to grovel for it? I find it unattractive as an attitude.



kyrs...I find this deduction very distasteful.
Groveling is another form of low self esteem.
Whining, complaining, finding excuses and general low self esteem and poor self image is not in the best interest of any submissive. It is not submission. It's another form of TFTB or the doormat syndrome, in my opinion.

Nothing in rose's post gave me an indiction she is groveling.

Why would not a Dom be grateful for a girl who desires to obey only Him?
Why would not a girl be grateful for a Dom who finds her form of submsiion the most beautiful thing in the world?

If I demanded pain or my own needs, my Dom would not be grateful for my submission ...but He is grateful I obey, am self assured, speak my mind and am not afraid to be who I am.
It would not be submission I give to Him if I was any less than myself.



nephandi -> RE: A Gift??? (11/12/2005 7:10:43 AM)

Sure think he is lucky to have me, just as i am lucky to have him, when i give him my submission, i guess it can be seen as a gift, after all i am the one that say, okey, you can be my boss, but at the same time his Dominance is a gift to me, i dont see it that way that a gift need to be no strings atatched, or that it is all aboute the Dominant and the submissive should just be glad he is there, he should be glad she is there to.



krys -> RE: A Gift??? (11/12/2005 9:03:17 AM)

Its just my opinion of people that consider themselves a "gift". I find the attitude that someone considers themselves a gift someone else should believe themselves blessed to have egotistical and abhorrent.

I see just how much effort Masters and Dom/mes and Owners and Tops put into their relationships with their counterparts. Its something most of them work hard at, and to call it a gift implies that it just falls into their lap with no effort on their part. A gift is something you bestow without compensation, without expectation upon the receiver to give anything back. To me, that is insulting. I own a nice car. I appreciate my nice car. I am not grateful for my nice car, because I know I worked hard for it and put a lot of effort into being able to obtain it. If one says that a man considers himself "Gods gift to women", its an insult. I take slaves and subs that consider their submission a "gift" in the same light. I find it dismissive of the effort and work one's Master, Owner, Dom/me, what have you, puts into obtaining you.

Consequently, I have come to view the "gift" mentality as an expectation that someone else should have to grovel for your "gift". Partly due to the way I personally view the difference between something you should view with appreciation and something you should be grateful for, dependant on the amount of effort you put into it. And partly due to my observation of the behaviors of those that subscribe to the "gift" idea.



Sunshine119 -> RE: A Gift??? (11/12/2005 9:35:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tapestry

i agree that this is who i am - deep inside, my personality, whether i acknowledge it or not, it's there.
but
i think that the idea of the gift comes into play because
it is my choice whom i will submit myself to
and when i have been sufficiently wooed and courted and reassured to the point that i am willing to submit, at that point, i am offering my deepest self, and in that respect, yes it's a gift.


Tapestry, I think you've said this wonderfully. And, likewise, Dominance is a gift too. The Submissive and the Dominant BOTH must give the gift of themselves to each other. Not unlike the vanilla world.



RavenofPK -> RE: A Gift??? (11/12/2005 9:35:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: krys

Its just my opinion of people that consider themselves a "gift". I find the attitude that someone considers themselves a gift someone else should believe themselves blessed to have egotistical and abhorrent.

I see just how much effort Masters and Dom/mes and Owners and Tops put into their relationships with their counterparts. Its something most of them work hard at, and to call it a gift implies that it just falls into their lap with no effort on their part. A gift is something you bestow without compensation, without expectation upon the receiver to give anything back. To me, that is insulting. I own a nice car. I appreciate my nice car. I am not grateful for my nice car, because I know I worked hard for it and put a lot of effort into being able to obtain it. If one says that a man considers himself "Gods gift to women", its an insult. I take slaves and subs that consider their submission a "gift" in the same light. I find it dismissive of the effort and work one's Master, Owner, Dom/me, what have you, puts into obtaining you.

Consequently, I have come to view the "gift" mentality as an expectation that someone else should have to grovel for your "gift". Partly due to the way I personally view the difference between something you should view with appreciation and something you should be grateful for, dependant on the amount of effort you put into it. And partly due to my observation of the behaviors of those that subscribe to the "gift" idea.


*chuckles*

And to further expound on krys' thought process........if a man is groveling ( i.e.....begging for the woman to ALLOW him to own her) for her "gift", then who really is in charge, eh?

Dime a dozen. If one female does not provide what a man needs, go find one that does. Expendable assets. It is not for men to keep women simply because *they* say so.........it is for women to prove they are of enough pleasure and value to be worth the effort of keeping.




DesertRat -> RE: A Gift??? (11/12/2005 10:01:52 AM)

I agree with the above comment. Of course, the converse side is also true: No woman needs to stay with a loser "Master" if her needs aren't being met. She can simply move on and find one who fills the bill. Basic Relationship 101. Dime a dozen? Sure. And men are often on special for less than that.

Bob



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