RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (Full Version)

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Reigna -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/20/2008 8:28:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChyldeThere will be no "he can make suggestions, but i get the final say".  That is utter ridiculous bullshit. 


Are you sure about that? What if you make a suggestion that she doesn't care for? What happens then? Again, this may be a matter of semantics; but I'd say that the person doing the courting is the one who aims to please. The person being courted is the who will be pleased, or nothing happens.

In practice, this communication is fairly subtle. For example, if I'm meeting a sub for the first time and he suggests we take in an afternoon of motocross, I'm not going to say, "Dickless worm! Come up with something better or your pathetic ass is outa here." But believe me, we're not going to take in an afternoon of motocross. It's not really that much different from setting up a first vanilla date. The dance is delicate, but there's never any question who has the final say in what happens.



jonathan -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/20/2008 9:42:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Assuming money is not an issue and you could afford anything, do you prefer to be in a position to pick when, where and what, and be in charge of first dates with submissive partners? You tell him where you are going, you pay for it, you make the arrangements, etc. Or, do you prefer that the submissive do the courting - select the location, call you with the details, and drive the process?

I don't want this to turn into a "who pays" thread because paying is only part of it. I'm really talking about who is in control of the date.

Addiontal question for male subs: Given the choice, are you more attracted to the idea of being told what to do on a first date, having it be set up by the femdom and having her call the shots -- or do you enjoy the opportunity to make the choices, to court her? No "50/50, I like to work as a team" answers; assume you have to either take charge or let her take charge for the sake of this discussion. It's a first date, after all.

Akasha


You are just coming up with the best thread starters lately, Ms. Akasha.

Given a preference, i would want Her to make the choices and so forth, on a first or any date. But as a romantic to the bone, i would want some opening to express that as well, maybe partly to show that i am drawn to Her as person and not only as a dominant. After getting to know Her well, i get the opportunity to pick a weekend retreat. A recent e-mail exchange for me on this, actually.



darchChylde -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/20/2008 10:07:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reigna

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChyldeThere will be no "he can make suggestions, but i get the final say".  That is utter ridiculous bullshit. 


Are you sure about that? What if you make a suggestion that she doesn't care for? What happens then? Again, this may be a matter of semantics; but I'd say that the person doing the courting is the one who aims to please. The person being courted is the who will be pleased, or nothing happens.

In practice, this communication is fairly subtle. For example, if I'm meeting a sub for the first time and he suggests we take in an afternoon of motocross, I'm not going to say, "Dickless worm! Come up with something better or your pathetic ass is outa here." But believe me, we're not going to take in an afternoon of motocross. It's not really that much different from setting up a first vanilla date. The dance is delicate, but there's never any question who has the final say in what happens.


Actually, i can be certain.  First, there is an equal possibility that i will be the one being courted.  Besides, will she not be trying to woo me as well?  But my point is that i will be willing to compromise on everything, and act in a reasonable manner.  But, i expect the same from my date; this is a first date so it will be a primarily vanilla affair.

In the end, i simply will not put up with any foolishness.  i won't take the numbers game into account when it comes to pretending an attitude is acceptable to me when it isn't.  i'm not out to play games and if someone sets out with an attitude that she's going to lay out absolutes before i've even had a chance to get to know her, i'll know that she's not the dominant for me.



Reigna -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/20/2008 10:31:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde
In the end, i simply will not put up with any foolishness.  i won't take the numbers game into account when it comes to pretending an attitude is acceptable to me when it isn't. 


And nor should you. I'm kind of old-fashioned, though, and I generally arrange to be courted, rather than put myself into situations where I must court. I've never been one to chase after guys. "And if [their] smiles are not for me, then what care I how sweet they be?" That's not to say that when someone appealing comes within range I don't employ such feminine charms as I have at my command. But I arrange to be courted. Always have. That puts me right where I like to be--in charge. Is it a game? Sure it is. It's one I like, and I play only with the willing.

Of course, the real test of whether I'm in charge is whether, on a first date, a sub will go with me to a yarn store to check out, say, a new line of cashmerino. I've never yet been able to pull that one off.



thetammyjo -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/21/2008 5:45:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressSybella

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I'm not sure I understand how I'm not in control if I'm being courted?


Good answer! LOL! My answer is, "it depends." But yours works so much better. :)

But seriously, it depends on who I am with and what their role is.


Miss 'Bella
ServeMeWell





Being courted is NOT just a "first date" as some have limited it to in this thread.

Being courted is a period of time where both people are attempting to determine if they might build a relationship together.

While in modern times in the West the man might be the one to make the first approach if you pay attention to courting dynamics prior to the formal request for a date, you'll notice that women do a great deal to attract and to signal their openness to being asked out. A foolish man is unaware of this and may ask inappropriate women out and experience a high rate of rejection. A wise man has learned to make better judgments and has a low rate of rejection.

It's a complicated process by which both people exercise their control over self and attempt to influence the other. The person who asks that formal question about the first date or meeting though loses their control as soon as they have asked -- the person asked now has the power to say "yes" or "no".

After that point we go back to the complex dance.

In none of this do I see myself losing any control especially over myself. I think allowing oneself to lose such control is a sign that one is not going cautiously as may be wise.

Believe it or not, once I'm in a relationship I'm incredibly romantic but before, no, not really because I think it clouds judgment.



VictoriaDoll4her -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/21/2008 6:11:41 AM)

I don't think I could "date" a domme.  It all sounds l ike it would to be just another way to wind up in a one sided freindship/relationship with me doing everthing.  If that's what a sub is then it's not me.  sub for "play" is one thing but in life.. where's the equality?  Or doesn't the word equality exist in the bdsm vocabulary? 



Reigna -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/21/2008 6:36:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Being courted is NOT just a "first date" as some have limited it to in this thread.

Being courted is a period of time where both people are attempting to determine if they might build a relationship together ... The person who asks that formal question about the first date or meeting though loses their control as soon as they have asked -- the person asked now has the power to say "yes" or "no".


You're right. I just gotta quibble, though. The complex dance you describe is what I'd term courtship. It is different from being courted, which as you pointed out in your first response to the OP, puts the one being courted firmly in control.



thetammyjo -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/21/2008 7:18:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Reigna

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Being courted is NOT just a "first date" as some have limited it to in this thread.

Being courted is a period of time where both people are attempting to determine if they might build a relationship together ... The person who asks that formal question about the first date or meeting though loses their control as soon as they have asked -- the person asked now has the power to say "yes" or "no".


You're right. I just gotta quibble, though. The complex dance you describe is what I'd term courtship. It is different from being courted, which as you pointed out in your first response to the OP, puts the one being courted firmly in control.



Courtship is the entire process and interaction; the OP asked about being courted versus being in control and I don't think they are different at all.



thetammyjo -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/21/2008 7:25:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VictoriaDoll4her

I don't think I could "date" a domme. It all sounds l ike it would to be just another way to wind up in a one sided freindship/relationship with me doing everthing. If that's what a sub is then it's not me. sub for "play" is one thing but in life.. where's the equality? Or doesn't the word equality exist in the bdsm vocabulary?


In a Ds relationship, I don't think "equality" is a good term to use to describe that dynamic. With my slave, he is not my equal because he has given me authority and I wield arguably more power much of the time -- I couldn't call him my "slave" if he were really just my partner, my equal.

Outside of the Ds relationship, are the two or more human beings equal in terms of their value as humans? Guess that depends on your personal philosophy doesn't it? Some people think race, age, sex, gender, occupation, etc should be calculated in that.

I think two people entering into a Ds dynamic need to start from a place where they are as "equal" as possible but let's be honest about the "market" for relationships of this type. Some might say that it seems like subs outnumber doms on all levels; others counter it's quality over quantity. Two people of quality will be on a fairly equal field in terms of attracting partners, someone less choosy suddenly may discover that he/she is in the unequal place of being one of many competing for the attention of one.

Is all of this fair? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what you call "fair" how much value that has to you compared to the benefits of being in a Ds dynamic, or a marriage or having a job or any other human relationship. Each has it's rules, written or not.



DiurnalVampire -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/21/2008 7:39:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VictoriaDoll4her

I don't think I could "date" a domme.  It all sounds l ike it would to be just another way to wind up in a one sided freindship/relationship with me doing everthing.  If that's what a sub is then it's not me.  sub for "play" is one thing but in life.. where's the equality?  Or doesn't the word equality exist in the bdsm vocabulary? 


Is that different from dating a vanilla woman? The who idea of beig submissive is that you are serving the dominant you are with. Some of us have very happy relationships where this is a constant. Fox and Angel are my equals, in some senses, and not my equals in others. I am the one in control of the relationships, though it isnt one-sided. Most dominants take their submissives interests into consideration, so even if they are the decision makers, it isnt like the sub doesnt have input.
/end hijack

Personally, on a first date I prefer to let the other person make the plans and decisions. I observe and I see how well they do, how comfortably the can and things like that. Once we have a more established dynamic, I will take more control of plans like that, but on a first date I gauge someone's abilities to make plans and try and impress me. AFter all I like my boys to be capable of doing things like that should I need ro want it, and what better way to fid out what they can do then to let them do it under the pressure of that all important first impression.

DV



Reigna -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/21/2008 7:51:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
Courtship is the entire process and interaction; the OP asked about being courted versus being in control and I don't think they are different at all.


Yep--being courted is being in control. Maybe the OP was asking who makes the initial plans.Thinking back (I haven't done this for awhile, though I doubt things have changed much in two years) generally the sequence is that the sub first expresses interest in meeting--after reading the tea leaves and all the little signals I'm sending and so on--and then I suggest the venue.

Sub: I'd really like to meet you.
Domme: I'd like that too. How about Kid 'n' Ewe, next Tuesday evening? I hear they have a to-die-for new line of fingering weight alpaca.
Sub: Excellent idea! Just name the time.

Well, that's my fantasy scenario, anyway.



VictoriaDoll4her -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/21/2008 8:01:43 AM)

I just don't see it in everyday life. women I meet socially be they strt, bi, les, seem to all have a handle on things.  Are all d/s based on 24/7 365 TPE?  I find it hard to beleive.  Hell I don't mind being a submissive plaything but on the stage of life I don't want to be treated as secondary to anyone. who really does?  But then.. I read some of the profiles of the Dommes seeking. and Subs seeking.. I guess I am in laa laa land giggle.. 



LadyHibiscus -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/21/2008 8:28:26 AM)

 from Reigna....
Of course, the real test of whether I'm in charge is whether, on a first date, a sub will go with me to a yarn store to check out, say, a new line of cashmerino. I've never yet been able to pull that one off.
[/quote]

When you do, I will BOW DOWN to you forever!!  A first date at a yarn store.....  well, that is just too dreamy....



MzticStormz -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/21/2008 9:42:24 AM)

Being as it is a "First" date, I tend to like to mix both the control and being courted.   I ask the submissive to come up with three different types of dates,  Once he has done this then I take my pick and have him set it up.   This gives me insight as to his creativity, some of his likes and possibly his dislikes, as well as it gives him a bit of insight to me.  Of course I always reserve the right to say no way to all three, and dictate what we shall do.



ChrisP2175 -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/21/2008 9:50:29 AM)

When I am meeting a Domme for the first time, my ideal date is an early dinner (say 6 pm) at a very good restaurant.

Early means a better table (with perhaps a bit more privacy), and it means that if we don't hit it off, the evening is still young for both of us to go our seperate ways.

I like it to be at a good restaurant, so that we can enjoy the food and wine as a backdrop to our conversation. Even if we don't hit it off, the Japanese tilefish served on a bed of gnocci makes it a pleasant evening.

We both have an opportunity to acess the other's interests and experience. The seemingly simple choices made as we order speak volumes about how we perceive and navigate the world.

Finally, if we do hit it off, the night is young, and we can stroll along one of the open areas, catch a gallery or show, or what ever else strikes our fancy.

I've found that the more courtly I behave, the more likely my Domme date is to assert her particular strengths. It's taken me awhile to appreciate that just as I am concerned about letting my vanilla peers detect my submissive nature, many Domme women have similar concerns from the subtle feedback they receive within our culture about "women in charge".

I love the give and take of exchanges like these. It's nice to find women with particular talents and aptitudes that exceed mine, and who appreciate a male that can acknowledge their strength.

chris



AAkasha -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/21/2008 11:27:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reigna

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
Courtship is the entire process and interaction; the OP asked about being courted versus being in control and I don't think they are different at all.


Yep--being courted is being in control. Maybe the OP was asking who makes the initial plans.Thinking back (I haven't done this for awhile, though I doubt things have changed much in two years) generally the sequence is that the sub first expresses interest in meeting--after reading the tea leaves and all the little signals I'm sending and so on--and then I suggest the venue.

Sub: I'd really like to meet you.
Domme: I'd like that too. How about Kid 'n' Ewe, next Tuesday evening? I hear they have a to-die-for new line of fingering weight alpaca.
Sub: Excellent idea! Just name the time.

Well, that's my fantasy scenario, anyway.


But is being courted really being in control?  I think that's what I was getting at.   I've had some of my most highly charged dating/courting situations with men where I had all the control.  Essentially I was courting him.  Starting from finding him, walking up, asking him out, getting his phone number, being the one to call him, asking him to meet me on Saturday night, telling him what to wear, picking him up, driving some place, having dinner, walking in front, handling the reservations, dealing with the waitstaff, telling him what he will eat (all with a certain mischeivious flirtatious style and in good humor, but clearly seductive, clearly "I own your ass tonight boy"), and then collecting him in the car and taking him where I want.  For the sake of this description I have clearly embellished, but the point is still there -- I pursued, I courted, I controlled.

(I guess clearly the dynamic here depends on who wants whom more; of course, if a woman is pursuing a man who is just not interested, he has all the control. If she is pursuing a guy who thinks she is amaznig, then he's both speechless AND vulnerable)

The same would be said for men I "found" on the Internet and took a liking to - right down to my husband - whereby I told them I wanted to meet, set up the flight, made the hotel arrangements, told him when/where to be, and handled everything.  From paying to decision making.  Of course, that doesn't mean I ignore his desires, ("What kind of food do you enjoy? Are you comfortable in fancy restaurants?  Can you bring a change of clothes if we go out dancing?") -- but I clearly decide when, what, how, etc.

This also is a workable dynamic because I pretty much always dated younger men.  My busiest courting years were when I was in my 30s and the men I dated were in their 20s, usually either a couple years younger or up to 10 years younger...because I found that dynamic to be electric and exciting. If I were out in the dating world right now, I don't think it would work quite the same and my tastes are more refined, so there'd clearly be a lack of connection with men that young, and I don't see men in their 30s so willing to be "courted" in that manner.  For guys in their early 20s, broke and in college, having a corporate lady in her 30s come along and court them, seduce them, etc. was thrilling.  It was just a hot fantasy of mine that I got to enjoy on a regular basis.  But again, at the core, there must be dramatic chemistry and intense attraction on both sides -- I have always found that most men LOVE to be pusued by women they find sexy, mystersious and alluring.  I figured that out when I was 16, and decided it was much more exciting to be the one PURSUING the guys I found hot, rather than waiting for them to ask me out and crying to my girlfriends when he didn't, like most girls at that age did.

I've been courted as well, and I can feel control in those situations too; but it's a very different dynamic.  When I think back to it, really, there's a very subtle interaction that goes on in the early dating process to establish who is in control, and it's a matter of either taking control or expecting a man to take control - in all cases though, the lady has the pussy (lol).

Akasha



unforegvn -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/21/2008 5:38:22 PM)

It's a date he should ask what I would like to do, inquire as to what I enjoy eating or an activity I enjoy.  I expect the details to be worked out by him.  Should he come to serve me he will need to learn how to arrange social activities as it will be part of the training my watching him sweat at the decisions he has made on my behalf gives me great pleasure.



undergroundsea -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/21/2008 9:10:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
No "50/50, I like to work as a team" answers; assume you have to either take charge or let her take charge for the sake of this discussion. It's a first date, after all.


I don't think the world is one of dichotomies. If one does not strictly see it as one way or the other, why should not one say what they feel?

I enjoy both. For me it is not about teamwork or date by democracy, but that each approach carries value and represents active participation by each.

Cheers,

Sea



MasterFireMaam -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/22/2008 3:12:29 AM)

I'd much rather be courted on first dates...but as the relationship develops, I usually have a bit more control about what I DON'T want to do. Still, even after three years, I don't choose restaurants. I say, "Let's go get a steak," and my girl say, "Ma'am, yes ma'am. What's the budget?" and the narrowing begins there. It's fairly rare for me to say, "Let's go HERE."

Master Fire



TexasMaam -> RE: First dates: Do you enjoy being in control, or being courted? (6/22/2008 4:51:08 PM)

I love being courted.  And sometimes I love being made love to.

But after a time, when the newness wears off of any relationship- and it comes down to 'getting it on'- I am consistently most aroused when I am in control.

Which is why      'IyamwhudIyamandatzalldatIyam'.

TM



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