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Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 8:48:27 AM

TheHeretic

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            In the pre-convention summer heat, the pundits are going to be scrambling a bit for things to spin. This week, we get two very different comparisons of the Obama campaign.

         An unpopular incumbent president sits in the Oval Office. His party's brand is badly tarnished. The economy is in shambles, unemployment on the rise. The housing market is in crisis. Gasoline has become a major issue. America is enmeshed in a protracted crisis in the Middle East with no end in sight. We are near war footing with Iran. The reputation of the United States is diminished world wide. In historically high numbers, voters believe the country is on the wrong track.

Link here

       The goal: linking Barack Obama to Carter, another Democratic newcomer elected on the promise of hope and change

And another link here

         I'm not sure how many of the Barry Bunch are going to embrace comparing their guy to Reagan, but they would do well to examine the strategic model of his campaign.

       The article on the attempts from the McCain side to paint Obama as Carter's second term should get a good read from the Barry Bunch as well. It quite rightly points out that most younger voters don't understand how hard a slam that is, because they either weren't around or politically aware during those years. They'll need to be able to counter that argument very well.

     So the question is, which comparison is more valid? As a candidate, is Barak Obama, Ronnie or Jimmy? Feel free to elaborate.

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Post #: 1

RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 9:22:47 AM

Owner59

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It will be like Carter`s term in that instead of a billion spent/ten GIs killed a week in imperialist adventures overseas,money and effort will be spent actually making us less energy dependent on outside sources and put us on the long road toward complete energy independence.

Yeah sexy,I know.

But this is a huge and multi faceted problem with many challenges ,but there`s also many solutions and millions of new,good jobs that will be a part of making us energy independent.

McCain would like folks to think that Carter was a backwards thinker, who didn`t want to address our immediate problems and also didn`t try to address our future problems.

That sounds more like McCain than Obama.

At least Carter didn`t bog us down in an endless war for oil.

How many solar panels and kilowatts could we produce,for a billion bucks a week(what we spend in just Iraq,a week)?

McCain,... foreign wars for oil,a darrick for every beach and a nuclear plant outside every city.

Obama,...doing what Carter suggested we do 30 years ago during the last big energy crisis,... solving our energy problems in peaceful,liberal, not so sexy ways.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/21/2008 9:26:17 AM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 2

RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 10:01:16 AM

atursvcMaam

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     i am seeing more of a Carter era, should Mr. Obama reach office. As far as i have been able to tell from things said, the following is on the table:
    Downsizing and redeploying the military.
       in Carter's era, that was done, the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran captured our embassy, and took hostages. Mr Carter's attempt to talk that through was unsuccessful, as was a helicopter attempt to use force in that rescue attempt.
        The former Soviet Union was relaxed enough to run a field exercise into a neighboring country without blatant US (or UN if i recall) response.
         And the Libyans were testing to see what kind of trouble they might be able to start, or get away with.
        Financially there was double digit inflation, Double digit unemployment, and gas became a rationed commodity. Mr Obama has suggested a renewed Capital Gains tax which, while wonderful in theory, will likely have the outcome of drying up Capital investment, for a safer, tax free haven. The folks who have the money to invest will tend not to invest it in new development simply to lose it in taxes. This will increase unemployment.
          Mr Obama has said that $4.00/gallon gas is a good thing, unfortunate that it came about so quickly, but overall may keep demand down. Seeking sources closer to home, and that are less likely to be shut down through international turmoil would be wise both long term and short term. Those who are speculatively investing would see that as a controlling factor for pricing, as well as supply interruptions, and the speculative price would decrease.
            As for brilliance, i believe that Mr Carter was a Rhodes Scholar, but it was a rough encumbency. For the record, i was a democrat when Carter got into office. i did appreciate the military pay raise when Reagan got in.

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RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 10:10:30 AM

Sanity

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You're right. Carter and Obama "energy plans" call for the nation's fixed income elderly to freeze in winter, cook in summer, and walk through gangland to get their catfood suppers.

Meanwhile, pesky Republicans want to help provide the nation with energy - the bastards.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 6/21/2008 10:18:44 AM >

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RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 11:02:54 AM

TheHeretic

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Looking at them strictly as candidates, I'd put Obama more into the Reagan model. Both Ronnie and Jimmy had the executive level experience Obama completely lacks, so that needs to be set aside anyway. Both ran their initial campaigns for office on idealism, and a promise of 'change.' Reagan though, became a movement, more than a campaign, and that's where I see the connection to Obama. People supported Jimmy. They believe/d in Obama and Reagan.

Another connection is that at this point in the campaign, both Reagan and Obama were labeled as 'dangerous' on foreign policy. Reagan was able to overcome that to a landslide victory. Obama will need to do the same.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 5

RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 11:12:02 AM

Owner59

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After 8 years of Bush/McCain policy,folks know what dangerous foreign policy is.

Not much need to ponder that.

They know, without other people`s labels or assertions.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/21/2008 11:13:03 AM >

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RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 11:23:26 AM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

You're right. Carter and Obama "energy plans" call for the nation's fixed income elderly to freeze in winter, cook in summer, and walk through gangland to get their catfood suppers.

Meanwhile, pesky Republicans want to help provide the nation with energy - the bastards.

Yeah,at a highway robber`s price and 3 times what it should cost.Great deal,bud.

Jesus,why don`t they piss down our backs and tell us they`re providing heat and moisture for us?

Damm right those republicans are bastards.The pikers run up the cost of energy and then brag that they`re providing it for us?Talk about audacity!

Technically,war for oil is also "providing" oil.I don`t think America is interested in your version of "providing"

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/21/2008 11:31:30 AM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 11:50:39 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

After 8 years of Bush/McCain policy ...

          I'm aware that is the official talking point, O59, but the exact same logic could make it Bush/Clinton, or even Bush/Kennedy policy.

        McCain was even out there with specific ideas for changing what we were doing in Iraq, long before the Bush Adminstration would even acknowledge there might be something that needed changing. Did Hillary offer any new strategies?

      The Barry Bunch is going to have to do a lot better than "McSame" to get over the hurdle on national security.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 8

RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 2:05:34 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
The Barry Bunch is going to have to do a lot better than "McSame" to get over the hurdle on national security.

Nice bit of pyschological warfare, the diminutive and the attempt to attach it to a comedy about children, where did you get it? And why did you think it would work? Do you really think it will change minds?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 9

RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 2:07:49 PM

atursvcMaam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Looking at them strictly as candidates, I'd put Obama more into the Reagan model. Both Ronnie and Jimmy had the executive level experience Obama completely lacks, so that needs to be set aside anyway. Both ran their initial campaigns for office on idealism, and a promise of 'change.' Reagan though, became a movement, more than a campaign, and that's where I see the connection to Obama. People supported Jimmy. They believe/d in Obama and Reagan.

Another connection is that at this point in the campaign, both Reagan and Obama were labeled as 'dangerous' on foreign policy. Reagan was able to overcome that to a landslide victory. Obama will need to do the same.

    Reagan, if i remember correctly, had a hand, prior to the election, in negotiating the release of our captured embassy in Iran. He promoted lowering taxes, and had a very positive patriotic attitude.

   While not questioning Mr Obama's devotion, his solutions always seem to indicate an increase in taxes, he is hesitant about trekking overseas, and just to note, he seems to reject wearing the US flag. He could have the best reasoning behind that in the world, or it could simply be an oversight, but it is a notable exclusion.

       Mr. Reagan left me feeling proud to be American, and to wear the uniform of the US Army. Having learned, while in that uniform, that each of us, as Americans, have value and something to offer. i now feel like i am back in the 70's, where any word out of my mouth might be misconstrued as a racist remark. Among my circle of friends and acquaintances, that stopped being a question over 35 years ago. Mr Obama needs to come up with a better defensive strategy to negotiate on an international level. If his defense stays *don't pick on my past or my family* and "I will not be lectured" he will get trounced overseas. No doubt that he will be tested in that arena, as have almost all former Presidents.

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 10

RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 2:42:43 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam
Reagan, if i remember correctly, had a hand, prior to the election, in negotiating the release of our captured embassy in Iran.

If he did he committed treason. A lot of effort has been but into finding out whether he or his campaign actually did negotiate with the Iranians, who've always said he did BTW, but no clear cut evidence has ever been found. The only thing still keeping the theory alive is his campaign chair's, William Casey, complete disappearance for several days during the summer of 1980.

(in reply to atursvcMaam)

Post #: 11

RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 3:25:16 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

You're right. Carter and Obama "energy plans" call for the nation's fixed income elderly to freeze in winter, cook in summer, and walk through gangland to get their catfood suppers.

Meanwhile, pesky Republicans want to help provide the nation with energy - the bastards.

First of all, almost all republicans seek only power and money and couldn't care less about the cost of living and any economic issues other than more economic growth for more profits (not jobs) for their contributors. The republican party should have changed its name 30 years ago to the capitalist party or the plutocrats.

Let me see, you are 45 so about 16 or 17 years old when Reagan was elected (Carter defeated) and what...didn't like 60 cents a gal. for your leaded 104 octane you wanted for your muscle car...? I didn't either but still used only Sunoco 260.

Blame our friendship and support of the bloddy, fascist, monarch the Shah of Iran became in the 70's.

Reagan, the first neocon like the rest, are all big government deficit spenders and are part of the scheme to have us in debt and at war...continuously. Not he or the Bushes has ever REDUCED taxes they reduce tax REVENUE and left the rest for us and our children to pay later...with debt service. This is for oil, profits and one-world, dominant facism and they are ALL off to a very good 20-30 year start. This is especially true now with the Patriot Act and the creation of something right out of the third reich...Homeland Security Admin. Why do you think Ron Paul voted against both ? Is he the only statesman the republicans have left ?

These neocons are the forth reich and succeeding just like their predecessors did with Hitler (succeeded in having a very profitable war) who was himself funded by western capitalists.

McCain is already a voraciously insatiable drinker of the neocon kool-aide (wants at least one and likely...two more wars) but Obama if elected, will have to come around and play ball or will simply...have to go. Some way will be managed. Either some sorta religious and likely an Islamic spin on his patriotism or a new 'terrorist' act (assassination) that very successfully get its man.

Forget the politcs and the issues...the small potatoes...we have work to do to completely disenfranchise the neocons politically. We need to expose their corrupt group for what they are...murderous, corrupt one-world govt. fascists.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 12

RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 3:48:10 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

If he did he committed treason. A lot of effort has been but into finding out whether he or his campaign actually did negotiate with the Iranians, who've always said he did BTW, but no clear cut evidence has ever been found. The only thing still keeping the theory alive is his campaign chair's, William Casey, complete disappearance for several days during the summer of 1980.

I guess Carter committed treason when he talked to Hezbollah then. The group is listed as a terrorist organization with the State Department, and has remained so through both Republican and Democratic administrations.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 13

RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 3:57:19 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
The Barry Bunch is going to have to do a lot better than "McSame" to get over the hurdle on national security.

Nice bit of pyschological warfare, the diminutive and the attempt to attach it to a comedy about children, where did you get it? And why did you think it would work? Do you really think it will change minds?

Thanks. I found it in the same place I found 'the bundle' to describe the anti-war activists, Ken; my own twisted way of looking at the world. Get used to it.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 14

RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 4:01:27 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
We need to expose their corrupt group for what they are...murderous, corrupt one-world govt. fascists.

And I suppose you believe the way to do this is by supporting incompetent, delusional, one-world govt. socialists?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 15

RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 4:05:09 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam
Reagan, if i remember correctly, had a hand, prior to the election, in negotiating the release of our captured embassy in Iran.

If he did he committed treason. A lot of effort has been but into finding out whether he or his campaign actually did negotiate with the Iranians, who've always said he did BTW, but no clear cut evidence has ever been found. The only thing still keeping the theory alive is his campaign chair's, William Casey, complete disappearance for several days during the summer of 1980.

To help...allow me to add this. It was during the end of the Carter admin. and HIS lower level diplomats as well as foreign diplomats AND Carter's explicit threat relayed through 3 embassies that if any of the hostages were killed or even put on trial...there would be an all-out comprehensive military invasion of Iran and we would take over...that negotiated their release.

It has been rumored (and I wouldn't put it past him/them) that Reagan sent emissaries to time their release just as he was being inaugurated. William Casey BTW was to become DCI...Director of Intelligence at CIA under Reagan and was also a neocon.

Yes, Reagan and Bush I as VP and Oliver North very probably committed a serious federal offense (if not treason) in dealing arms (missiles) to Iran for cash (to fund contra-revolutionary gorillas in Nicaragua) and the release of a CIA station chief in Lebanon...a very brave and important former Marine Col.

Note: It was Carter who started the beginning of the end of the cold war and on two counts:

1) It was Carter (having been Career navy and a grad. of Annapolis) and commander of a nuclear sub who as president truly brought hi-technology to the military...across the board. Much of our success in today's shock and awe precision bombing and the superiority of our navy is directly because of Carter. (Steath, cruise missile, Aegis, Awax, smart bombs, ground and conventional digital tech...think of Jimmy Carter) and

2) It was Carter who negotiated with the europeans and (put up with all those young european, liberal doves and their demonstrations) yet still convinced the europeans to actually install Pershing II medium range nuclear missiles over there right in the russian's back yard. (Many russians admitted later that it was then they knew there was no way they could 'win' any level of war against the west)

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RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 4:14:43 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
We need to expose their corrupt group for what they are...murderous, corrupt one-world govt. fascists.

And I suppose you believe the way to do this is by supporting incompetent, delusional, one-world govt. socialists?

Well, I am assuming you are talking about Obama and incompetance has been a market cornered and the bar lowered more than enough by...our current admin. and pres.

Well since we have never ever been anything close to socialism in the country it would be hard pressed for anyone to convince me this stickman of a short-term populist is going to change anything.

Obama trust me...is no match for these people. They will fund civil suits about phillandering, and their party will spend $65 million investigatng his business deals and oval office-oral sex but spend $600,000 investigating 9/11. I am talking about real power and the last fear on my mind is any coming socialism...real or imagined.

There simply is no basis in fact or even reasonable speculation that Obama even has a clue on how he...almost by charisma alone, is going to even have these neocons even bat-an-eye.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 6/21/2008 4:35:50 PM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 4:43:46 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

If he did he committed treason. A lot of effort has been but into finding out whether he or his campaign actually did negotiate with the Iranians, who've always said he did BTW, but no clear cut evidence has ever been found. The only thing still keeping the theory alive is his campaign chair's, William Casey, complete disappearance for several days during the summer of 1980.

I guess Carter committed treason when he talked to Hezbollah then. The group is listed as a terrorist organization with the State Department, and has remained so through both Republican and Democratic administrations.

No.

Iran had invaded the US and was at that time occupying US territory that makes them enemies by any definition. Which is a basic requirement of treason under the Constitution. Simply being an organization we dislike isn't going to cut it.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Post #: 18

RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 4:46:07 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
The Barry Bunch is going to have to do a lot better than "McSame" to get over the hurdle on national security.

Nice bit of pyschological warfare, the diminutive and the attempt to attach it to a comedy about children, where did you get it? And why did you think it would work? Do you really think it will change minds?

Thanks. I found it in the same place I found 'the bundle' to describe the anti-war activists, Ken; my own twisted way of looking at the world. Get used to it.

Don't fib. It's been showing up all over the place the last couple of weeks. I was hoping you'd own up to where you first saw it so I could track down the actual originator.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 19

RE: Two very different readings of Obama's palm - 6/21/2008 5:02:36 PM

Sanity

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Oh shit, now you've done it. You've invoked Godwin's Law.

Way to go...

quote:

These neocons are the forth reich and succeeding just like their predecessors did with Hitler...

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