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How do you define - 11/4/2005 12:48:13 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
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From: Texas
Status: offline 		the difference of being submissive to your Owner from being obedient.


Thankyou in advance

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 12:52:17 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		HMmm we're just talking about that on another list I am on.

For me obedience is submission. However, submission is not necessarily obedience. Submission is a larger, all-encompassing state.

Obedience is obviously following an order, and thus demonstrating submission to the order and/or the person giving it.

(in reply to starshineowned)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 12:58:41 PM   
starshineowned


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quote:

submission is not necessarily obedience. Submission is a larger, all-encompassing state.


Then what is it?


starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 1:01:40 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
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Status: offline 		Submission means:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=submission

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

to paraphrase; to be humble, compliant; or to submit to the will of another.

Obedience means:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/obedience

same source material

again, to paraphrase, the quality of being obedient.

Obedient means:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/obedient

same source material

to paraphrase; to submit to the restraint or command of authority.

Myself, i cannot see any difference between these words, based on their dictionary definitions.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/4/2005 1:02:21 PM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 1:02:42 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned
quote:

submission is not necessarily obedience. Submission is a larger, all-encompassing state.

Then what is it?
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

The state of accepting and acting upon the acceptance of someone's authority over you.

(in reply to starshineowned)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 1:11:10 PM   
starshineowned


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quote:

The state of accepting and acting upon the acceptance of someone's authority over you


Ok so how do people equate saying they are a submissive with the fact that being submissive is a "state of"?

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 1:18:10 PM   
texaskatey


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Status: offline 		I can be obedient without being submissive, and I am every day -- I'm obedient, in different contexts, to my parents, my employers, my church, and even my friends; yet I'm not *submissive* to any of them.

Submission, as Lucky Albatross noted, is a "larger" state. I'd also add that while obedience is a part of submission, it's not ALL of submission. When I'm submissive, I not only choose to obey ("obedience"), I feel compelled to obey ("submission").

So I guess I think the difference is whether I obey out of free will alone, or a compulsion to obey brought about by the mysteries and complexities of a good D/s relationship.

katey

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 1:26:08 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

Ok so how do people equate saying they are a submissive with the fact that being submissive is a "state of"?

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

I don't. You asked how I define "submission" not "a submissive."

Dominants can regularly be in a state of submission.




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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 1:28:46 PM   
starshineowned


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From: Texas
Status: offline 		Ok again though..if you are accepting someone's authority over you then that means you are deferring to that authority. If your deferring to that authority whatever manifestation it takes within context of your relationship then your following it or being obedient to it.

Trying to keep this within the realm of relationship in wiitwd..not the outside world.


starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to texaskatey)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 1:31:49 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned
Ok again though..if you are accepting someone's authority over you then that means you are deferring to that authority. If your deferring to that authority whatever manifestation it takes within context of your relationship then your following it or being obedient to it.

Yes. That sounds exactly like a restatement of what I said, obedience = submission but submission is larger than just obedience.
quote:


Trying to keep this within the realm of relationship in wiitwd..not the outside world.

Ahhh see now you're putting limits on the context. That can change everything.

(in reply to starshineowned)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 1:38:38 PM   
starshineowned


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From: Texas
Status: offline 		Um yes..the limits on the context I figured would be obvious by stating: "difference of being submissive to your Owner from being obedient." :)

"but submission is larger than just obedience." Larger how and in what way? And again, how does a person say they are a "submissive" (like saying they are a car salesman) if it is a state of accepting something?

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 1:41:38 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned
Larger how and in what way? And again, how does a person say they are a "submissive" (like saying they are a car salesman) if it is a state of accepting something?

starshine

For me the definition of "a submissive" in wiitwd is someone who is oriented to be fulfilled in relationship based upon the dynamic of an authority transfer in day-to-day issues.

(in reply to starshineowned)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 2:01:30 PM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Personal definition:

Submissive, Submission = The willingness or preparedness to submit your will to another to one degree or another.

Obey, Obedience = To follow a legitimate order or command by a person or organisation of whom you accecpt has the authority to issue such commants or rules or by a body designated as being opfficial by the Government of your territory in which you reside etc.

NOTE:

1). A submissive will obey the commands issued by the person he/she has submitted to (within the bounds og that submission).

2). Not all people obeying legal commands are submissive.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 2:05:31 PM   
ImpGrrl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
1). A submissive will obey the commands issued by the person he/she has submitted to (within the bounds og that submission).

2). Not all people obeying legal commands are submissive.


I agree with LA (we've had this conversation), but I'd modify her definition to say that obedience *within the confines of a d/s relationship* is always submission. I agree with IB's point here that not all obedience, everywhere, is submission.

The discussion where she and I formed our view was based on a slave stating that her owner didn't want submission - he wanted obedience. In that context - that obedience he wants *is* submission. As in, she's doing his will.



(in reply to IronBear)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 2:08:22 PM   
starshineowned


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From: Texas
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quote:

dynamic of an authority transfer in day-to-day issues


So then is it logical to say that a "submissive" has to be accepting on a day to day basis before such authority is transferred..where as to be obedient they don't have to accept it but just do it? And if that assumption is correct, and the "submissive" doesn't accept a particular authority transfer on a given day, does that make them just submissive sometimes or when they feel like it? And if that is a correct assumption, and they have that discerning power to accept the authority on a given day by day basis, then doesn't that really just make them a equal partner in a relationship that may or may not involve kink?

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 2:09:25 PM   
subrdn8


Posts: 12
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Status: offline 		Major oversimplification:

Submissive is what you are.

Obedient is what you do.

_____________________________

'always pleased to serve'

(in reply to ImpGrrl)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 2:19:58 PM   
ImpGrrl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

quote:

dynamic of an authority transfer in day-to-day issues


So then is it logical to say that a "submissive" has to be accepting on a day to day basis before such authority is transferred..where as to be obedient they don't have to accept it but just do it? And if that assumption is correct, and the "submissive" doesn't accept a particular authority transfer on a given day, does that make them just submissive sometimes or when they feel like it? And if that is a correct assumption, and they have that discerning power to accept the authority on a given day by day basis, then doesn't that really just make them a equal partner in a relationship that may or may not involve kink?

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin


LA - correct me if I'm wrong here.

The "accept" that LA mentions isn't about mindset - it's about relationship. The s-type accepts the relationship in which they are enacting an authority transfer.

As far as mindset goes - to some, mindset is unimportant. For me, and my relationship - while it's *nice* if I get all squishy or feel submissive or am happy about obeying Sir, it's not required - but the obedience is.

For us, submission is following his will - regardless of whether it aligns with my will or not. Obedience is part of that submission.

< Message edited by ImpGrrl -- 11/5/2005 8:12:50 AM >

(in reply to starshineowned)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 2:23:38 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
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From: Texas
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quote:

Submissive is what you are.

Obedient is what you do.



If it were that simple then I dont see how you can say:

you can be obedient, and you can be submissive. If you can be both how does one fall under the "what you are category", and the other "what you do category"? The same with you can say: you can "act obedient" and you can "act submissive". You can even say "you are obedient" .."you are submissive" but generally when used that way I see it as something you are doing by a behavior..not as a definitive thing such as I am a woman. No matter how I act or am..you can not change the fact that I am still a woman.

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to subrdn8)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 2:29:39 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
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quote:

Submissive, Submission = The willingness or preparedness to submit your will to another to one degree or another.


So then again, this falls into a "state of being" and not a definitive "you are" with nothing following the "you are" such as you are acting, you are being, you feel, you might be, etc. and so forth?

I do not understand how you can say: I am a submissive any more than you could say: I am a obedient. How can you actually be something that is a state of or a willingness to act in a certain way or behavior?

Sorry this seems so irritating but what I'm trying to figure out here is if being submissive is a behavior/personality and it's accepting or following authority of the Owner, and being obedient is (while maybe not accepting) following the authority of an Owner, and most every post/thread I've seen so far on whats the difference between submissives/slaves leads to the end result of "following the authority of a Owner"...what really can there be in difference of being submissive and being a slave to that said Owner that your following the authority of?

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

< Message edited by starshineowned -- 11/4/2005 3:06:22 PM >

(in reply to IronBear)
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RE: How do you define - 11/4/2005 3:19:19 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

quote:

dynamic of an authority transfer in day-to-day issues

And if that assumption is correct, and the "submissive" doesn't accept a particular authority transfer on a given day, does that make them just submissive sometimes or when they feel like it?

To me a submissive is an orientation just like being homosexual.

When I said "day-to-day" I did not meant "they evaluate the relationship daily" but rather that the person has authority in an ongoing daily basis, versus just a scene or in very limited segments of life.

Sorry for the confusion there.

(in reply to starshineowned)
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