RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (Full Version)

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MzMia -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/22/2008 5:06:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Mia, I don't want "the govt" *telling me* ANYTHING!
They're the fucking *hired help* not Management!
THE PEOPLE are the Management.
I want them *LISTENING* to *THE PEOPLE* and doing what we tell THEM to do!
When I vote for someone I'm sending them to Washington to represent MY wishes not theirs or the wishes of special interest groups or lobbyists or corporations.
The People are not the reason that we are $9Trillion in debt!
We are in so much trouble because our govt stopped LISTENING to The People long ago and took up the standard of corporations, lobbyists and corruption.
"Congressman" and "Senator" are not "leadership" positions they are "Messenger" positions!


lol, Popeye I hear you roaring!
Somewhere along the line, the situation changed, and we elect them NOW so they can kick us in the
ass and screw us.
 
How many politicians can you name, that are listening to what the people want these days?
The messenger has over thrown the kingdom!




DomAviator -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/22/2008 7:06:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fungasm

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Absolutely not, the govt doesnt tell me everything and thats how it should be. Thats why there is "classifiication" and "sensitive compartmentalized information" and "need to know" and "plausible deniability" etc... The publics "right to know" is bullshit. Its just like all those yahoos that assemble outside "Area 51" trying to find "the truth". Honestly, I would like to drop napalm on them as what they are doing is against national security!  Ya know what goes on at the Groom Lake Test Site? I do... Secret shit thats none of the public's fucking business! Standing on those ridges with a camera trying to snap a glimpse of something in the name of truth can get american pilots killed and destroy billions of dollars of research. Another example - whether or not WMD's were found in Iraq and in what quantities... Thats not our business. The people who need to know are in the loop. The people who dont need to know get "the Mushroom Treatment" - ie keep them in the dark and feed them a steady diet of horse shit. Thats the way it is, thats the way it always has been and thats the way it should be... and before Bush gets blamed for "secrecy and lies" remember that FDR, a democrat, pulled off the Manhattan Project which was the biggest coverup and covertly funded project in US History....


So you would assault Americans on American soil for trying to find out what the "government of the people" is doing?

The Government is US.  That's right- you, me, every American.  We have a DEMOCRACY.

If you believe there are things you don't need to know, then bully for you. But ignorance is not bliss- it's just ignorance. 

Ask those of my state who died of radiation exposure because of nuclear testing if the government should be trusted.  Ask those in the Tuskeegee experiment. 

Governments are here to protect its people.  Open source information is the best way to do this.



I absolutely would. In the case of so called "Area 51" what takes place there is secret for a reason - the security of the United States. One of the things to come out of there, knowledge of which has since by default entered the public domain, was the development and testing of the "stinkbug" (F117 aka "stealth fighter") A bunch a granola crunching hippies camping out with telescopes pointed toward the base snapping pictures of all sorts of odd wedge shaped craft endanger the security of a program of that type. Their "search for the truth" endangers billions of dollars of research and denies us a hard earned tactical advantage. I view these people as no better than enemy intelligence agents and feel they should be considered defacto spies in that their actions are contrary to the public interest and national security. If the govt wanted such things known, the test flights would have been made at noon on a bright sunny day over NYC, Houston, or LA - not in the dark from a secret facility in Nevada.

Incidentally, and this is a common misconception, we do NOT have a democracy. We have a Republic. The american public gets its say in govt one day a year - election day when they go to the polls to elect those who represent them. on the other 364 days of the year, the American public can sit back, STFU, and just enjoy the ride. We have no say in the affairs of govt on a day to day basis, that is handled by the elected and we can either signify approval by reelecting incumbents or we can signify protest by removing them from office with a vote for a challenger.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. If a few granola crunching hippies want to know what is coming out of the skunkworks thats too bad, because secrecy is needed to preserve the security of the many and that trumps the publics "want" (not right) to know. I mean what kind of clusterfuck of a society would we have if you could walk into the Pantex plant or Los Alomos Natl Labs and say "Id like a set of blueprints for the B-61 and W-87 series because Im a US Citizen and I have a right to know"...




celticlord2112 -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/22/2008 7:19:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Japan wanted to end the war.  Truman decided to kill 100,000 people before allowing Japan to end the war.

When all the points and counterpoints are done, that is the historical record.

Truman was wrong.  Dropping the bomb was unnecessary.  Causing 100,000 needless deaths....yes, that counts as a war crime.



Celtic, if you're in a firefight and the enemy stops and retreats do you stop shooting?

More than likely.  Unless my forces are in position to pursue in good order, absolutely. 

Had the US pursued the Japanese at Midway after the remnants of Nagumo's carrier task force withdrew, they would have encountered Yamamoto's main battle group--and been slaughtered. 

Once a battle is won, continued fighting is a waste of resources.  Continued fighting is also a good way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. 




slvemike4u -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/22/2008 7:25:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Japan wanted to end the war.  Truman decided to kill 100,000 people before allowing Japan to end the war.

When all the points and counterpoints are done, that is the historical record.

Truman was wrong.  Dropping the bomb was unnecessary.  Causing 100,000 needless deaths....yes, that counts as a war crime.



Celtic, if you're in a firefight and the enemy stops and retreats do you stop shooting?

More than likely.  Unless my forces are in position to pursue in good order, absolutely. 

Had the US pursued the Japanese at Midway after the remnants of Nagumo's carrier task force withdrew, they would have encountered Yamamoto's main battle group--and been slaughtered. 

Once a battle is won, continued fighting is a waste of resources.  Continued fighting is also a good way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. 

Once again You make a supposition, based on what this time ...a carried task force(granted with only one able carrier)would not have allowed itself to come in range of Yamamoto's surface fleet...Don't see how one could deduce they would have been slaughtered




celticlord2112 -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/22/2008 7:28:52 PM)

quote:

Once again You make a supposition, based on what this time ...a carried task force(granted with only one able carrier)would not have allowed itself to come in range of Yamamoto's surface fleet...Don't see how one could deduce they would have been slaughtered

They would have been outgunned, and with inadequate air power to mount a sufficient carrier based attack.

I have studied the battle at some length.  It is a reasonable extrapolation based on the disposition of the forces at the end of the battle.




slvemike4u -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/22/2008 7:59:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Once again You make a supposition, based on what this time ...a carried task force(granted with only one able carrier)would not have allowed itself to come in range of Yamamoto's surface fleet...Don't see how one could deduce they would have been slaughtered

They would have been outgunned, and with inadequate air power to mount a sufficient carrier based attack.

I have studied the battle at some length.  It is a reasonable extrapolation based on the disposition of the forces at the end of the battle.

Given Fletcher's orders of not risking his carriers without having the expectation of inflicting greater loss on the Imperial Fleet I still have a hard time seeing a Carrier Task Force engaging in a surface battle against superior forces.




Hanable -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/22/2008 10:39:06 PM)

i have a question.. why are all of DA's posts [Awaiting Approval]  what he do to get that brand?? jsut confused about it..

H >:)




Vendaval -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/22/2008 11:59:28 PM)

No.  I spent too many years in parochial school watching and experiencing the abuse of authority by people proclaiming virtue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
 Do you really believe everything the "man" and the "government" tells you??
If you do, please tell me why?




pinkieplum -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/23/2008 4:35:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I was born in the 60's.
Even though I was too young to be a part of it, I have
always respected that era/decade immensely, especially here in the USA,
People marched, people protested, people changed things in the 1960's.
 
I have never totally trusted the government to tell me everything, and fully
expect what I hear to be a "watered down version of the truth" at best.

I knew we were in a recession last year, and I feel we are headed to a depression.
It amazes me that people tell me it is not true, because..........."The government has not
announced it!".
I never realized how many of the masses really believe only what the "man" and the "government" tells them.
 
Do you really believe everything the "man" and the "government" tells you??
If you do, please tell me why?

**Power to the people**

I am really a child of the 60s.
PEACE



Laffs.
 
i protested too MzMia -- i think O/our generation had a strong sense that W/we could affect things, and maybe W/we did.
 
If Y/you weren't there -- Y/you don't know -- because Y/you cannot imagine it.  
 
It was very heady stuff.
 
pinkieplum




MissEnchanted -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/23/2008 6:47:22 AM)

quote:

Do you really believe everything the "man" and the "government" tells you??


MzMia,

O-Hell no! I do my best to sort through all the crap and make up my own mind about what is true.

And, I am a sceptical ex-hippie




MzMia -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/23/2008 7:05:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissEnchanted

quote:

Do you really believe everything the "man" and the "government" tells you??


MzMia,

O-Hell no! I do my best to sort through all the crap and make up my own mind about what is true.

And, I am a sceptical ex-hippie



Hummm as I suspected, most of us over 35...do not put much stock
in what the government tells us.
Thanks for making me smile, MissEnchanted, pinkie, Vendaval, popeye, and
everyone else that does not sit and wait for the "man" to tell them what time it is!
 
Power to the people!




vampchick88 -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/23/2008 7:10:00 AM)

 Of course they don't! They only tell us what they think we need to hear. I once read it best from a bumper sticker "Sure you can trust the government, just ask any indian" I'm a very untrusting person to begin with, but after hearing of so many cover-ups, conspiracies, etc...nah I'd rather trust my own instincts.  

btw why isnt the government using oil reserves we had piped from Alaska a few years ago? We can afford to blast off into space, to fix a toliet in the space station that cost us millions but we can't find gas for under $2. *Steps off soapbox* It feels good to rant in the morning![:)]




MzMia -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/23/2008 7:12:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vampchick88

Of course they don't! They only tell us what they think we need to hear. I once read it best from a bumper sticker "Sure you can trust the government, just ask any indian" I'm a very untrusting person to begin with, but after hearing of so many cover-ups, conspiracies, etc...nah I'd rather trust my own instincts.  

btw why isnt the government using oil reserves we had piped from Alaska a few years ago? We can afford to blast off into space, to fix a toliet in the space station that cost us millions but we can't find gas for under $2. *Steps off soapbox* It feels good to rant in the morning![:)]


Yes, ranting is wonderful.
I don't need the "government" to tell me we are close to a depression.
I can fucking see what is going on!
Power to the people!




hellfireNskill -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/23/2008 7:37:09 AM)

Blind skepticsm is as bad as blind faith. To believe everything "the Government" says is silly. It is equally silly to reject it out of hand, just because "the Government" says so.





MzMia -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/23/2008 7:53:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfireNskill

Blind skepticsm is as bad as blind faith. To believe everything "the Government" says is silly. It is equally silly to reject it out of hand, just because "the Government" says so.


"I have never totally trusted the government to tell me everything, and fully
expect what I hear to be a "watered down version of the truth" at best. "

My original OP, is "Do you trust the government to tell you everything?"

Some people really DO believe everything the government puts out.

 The truth is usually somewhere in the middle!
[;)]




stella41b -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/23/2008 8:18:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I was born in the 60's.
Even though I was too young to be a part of it, I have
always respected that era/decade immensely, especially here in the USA,
People marched, people protested, people changed things in the 1960's.


I'm three weeks younger than Medicare and was born when Tommy James and the Shondells topped the Billboard chart with 'Hanky Panky' and Georgie Fame and the Blueflames topped the charts in the UK with 'Getaway'. This was to me the best decade of the 20th century for numerous reasons - the Beatles, the Mamas and Papas, Martin Luther King, Hendrix, Woodstock, flower power and the Magic Roundabout to name but a few.

It was a period when people came together, and to me MLK shines just as brightly in the 1960's as Pope John Paul II did in Europe in the 1980's. Black people in the South became humans while Berry Gordy in Detroit brought us Motown.

But not everything changed .. the ideological struggle of left and right which had motivated the Second World War deepened and this provoked the protests. Not just in the USA. The 1960's also brought the UK a specific problem - Ulster, the IRA and terrorism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I have never totally trusted the government to tell me everything, and fully
expect what I hear to be a "watered down version of the truth" at best.


The only people I feel you can totally trust are poets and children. People you should never ever totally trust are playwrights, actors, lawyers, journalists and politicians.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
I knew we were in a recession last year, and I feel we are headed to a depression.
It amazes me that people tell me it is not true, because..........."The government has not
announced it!".


I don't believe that this is 'just' a recession. This is more a depression, a time of social upheaval and struggle caused by the prolonged death of Reaganomics and Thatcherism which - just like the death of communism and Sozialrealpolitik in Eastern Europe throughout the 1970's and 1980's is creating social division, poverty, and totalitarianism.

The 1980's was another brilliant decade for music but when you look back now you will see that the changes in society had very different effects to those in the 1960's. We were sold the illusion that making money somehow was the only measure of success and we were conditioned to be competitive. Failure and weakness was, and still is by many people, looked down upon. The problem is that being competitive means those who are bigger and stronger win and those who aren't lose. Even today people are still judged in terms of how profitable they are to the rest of society. Communities were destroyed, not just through competitiveness but through technological advances and the Internet.

It doesn't surprise me that people are saying that 'it's not true' when talking about recession - the people were never really among the winners - and defeat I guess is hard to accept. We can no longer march and protest like we did in the 1960's because the Establishment knows that most people cannot afford to risk losing what they have and just in case they do terrorism is being used as an excuse to introduce emergency powers very much like General Jaruszelski did in Poland in 1981.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
I never realized how many of the masses really believe only what the "man" and the "government" tells them.

Do you really believe everything the "man" and the "government" tells you??
If you do, please tell me why?

**Power to the people**

I am really a child of the 60s.
PEACE



I don't trust any politician or civil servant until they have proven consistently through their decisions and actions that they serve the people who elect them into office.

I'm currently developing a project involving the homeless and another involving the black community here in London and have been dealing with politicians and local government officials for some time. Let's just say I trust corporate businessmen, organized criminals a shade more than I trust politicians and civil servants.

The only three politicians I'm inclined to trust are Fidel Castro, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi and Nelson Mandela.

The rest? I'll believe it when it happens. I make a habit of not trusting people who have hidden agendas.

“Grow your tree of falsehood from a small grain of truth. Do not follow those who lie in contempt of reality. Let your lie be even more logical than the truth itself, so the weary travelers may find repose.”
Czeslaw Milosz.




MissEnchanted -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/24/2008 6:56:59 AM)

Viva La Revolution!  [:D]




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/24/2008 8:13:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkieplum

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I was born in the 60's.
Even though I was too young to be a part of it, I have
always respected that era/decade immensely, especially here in the USA,
People marched, people protested, people changed things in the 1960's.
 
I have never totally trusted the government to tell me everything, and fully
expect what I hear to be a "watered down version of the truth" at best.

I knew we were in a recession last year, and I feel we are headed to a depression.
It amazes me that people tell me it is not true, because..........."The government has not
announced it!".
I never realized how many of the masses really believe only what the "man" and the "government" tells them.
 
Do you really believe everything the "man" and the "government" tells you??
If you do, please tell me why?

**Power to the people**

I am really a child of the 60s.
PEACE



Laffs.
 
i protested too MzMia -- i think O/our generation had a strong sense that W/we could affect things, and maybe W/we did.
 
If Y/you weren't there -- Y/you don't know -- because Y/you cannot imagine it.  
 
It was very heady stuff.
 
pinkieplum
I got tear-gassed once or twice. What fun. [8D]

We DID change things. Look around. Organic Foods. Alternative medicine. Environmentalism. Much more.

I'm proud of my brothers and sisters.




JohnSteed1967 -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/24/2008 5:24:29 PM)

Let's Just see why I should trust my Government

  1. MK-Ultra
  2. Operation Paperclip
  3. Project Sunshine
  4. the Tuskegee Syphilis Study
  5. JFK
  6. RFK
  7. Operation Highjump
  8. tacit blue




celticlord2112 -> RE: Do you trust the government to tell you everything? really and why? (6/24/2008 5:32:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967

Let's Just see why I should trust my Government
  1. MK-Ultra
  2. Operation Paperclip
  3. Project Sunshine
  4. the Tuskegee Syphilis Study
  5. JFK
  6. RFK
  7. Operation Highjump
  8. tacit blue


Let's not forget
  1. The Gulf of Tonkin
  2. Ngo Dinh Diem
  3. Castle Bravo nuclear test




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