RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=-

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CreativeDominant -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 7:33:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BurntRose quote: ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub You state ...should'nt a Dominants main perogative be ensuring their sub is happy and providing what they need ...I say not necessarily so...not in all D/s dynamics ...and then again who decides what the needs and desires are?..the sub? or the Dominant? Obviously the Dom has the deciding voice, otherwise they wouldnt be dominant, but if the dominant isnt fulfilling the needs - and by needs i dont necessarily mean their conscious desires or something they just want, as people often what we want and what we need don't coincide - of the sub and no amount of communication on both parts can solve this, then is the relationship going to work? as i read on another thread somewhere, you can have a Dominant and you can have a submissive, but that doesnt necessarily make a succesful relationship. And that is true...not every dominant will work with every submissive. But as I questioned above, who decides what is a need? I've argued in the past that a submissive can state she "needs" to be spanked every day but is that really a need? Somewhere inside herself, her psyche may have twisted what is really a want into a need but should the dominant follow that? Or should he do as has been stated numerous times on here...listen to her carefully at the beginning of the D/s dynamic and communicate to her what he sees as her wants and what he sees as her needs and make it clear that it is his choice as to how to address each of those? And once she has agreed to that, then has she not made a commitment to following HIS way, whether or not she likes it at a particular moment in time? What I addressed was that "submission" in which you (generic) decides you don't like the dominant's tone or you feel that he is not dominating you properly according to *your mindset BUT* that mindset is a contradiction to what you agreed to follow previously. quote: I think this holds true in any relationship, if the needs of both parties arent being met then it isnt going to work out, it seems that within a D/s dynamic the added pressure comes when a Dominant can't read their sub and for some reason the sub cannot communicate what they need maybe because they dont understand themselves what they really want or maybe because of some other factor. I agree...needs must be met. And, before anyone thinks I am being too much of a hard-ass, I have stated before...as have many other dominants on these boards...that the dominant who doesn't recognize that he has to satisfy his submissives wants and desires sometimes in addition to her needs is only asking for trouble down the road. I know that in any D/s dynamic I've engaged in in the past and will engage in in the future will be a combination of meeting needs, wants, and desires. But in my dynamic and in most D/s dynamics, the structure that is agreed to by the submissive is that the dominant leads and the submissive follows and you know what? Not every decision made by the dominant is going to be to the submissive's liking AND sometimes, there are going to be periods when there is more dislike about submitting than like. This can be for a myriad of reasons and my personal belief is that the dominant should communicate about these reasons at least on a basic level. But that does not mean that he should come to the submissive to have his plan approved and yet, many seem to think they should. And when it is not, then the submission is taken away or given grudgingly. That is what the O.P. and other posts have been trying to address. quote: the fact remains that by submitting we relinquish some aspect of control, but how much control do you have to give up? does submitting mean you have to stay in an unfulfilling relationship because you have agreed to submit? imho the answer is no, if the Dominant does not fulfill your needs and make you happy to be submitting then you always have the prerogative to walk away. Yes, you do have the option to walk away if your needs are not being met. That is why it behooves you to have a clear understanding of just how you view your needs versus your wants versus your desires. Because, do you not see where your paragraph above directly conflicts with your earlier statement about a dominant...and here I am paraphrasing..."not taking any crap...not letting me get away with wrong behavior...showing me his strength and bending me to HIS will"? quote: sorry if i seem to be rambling or repeating myself a bit, this is a really interesting point for me and is raising a lot of questions as to the nature of a D/s dynamic. lol, I'm trying to argue all sides in my head and just making myself more confused. Funny how that works, eh?

beargonewild -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 8:46:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant But, this thread is about submissive responsibility and, like it or not, there comes those times when...for whatever reason...the submissive does not choose to submit because they "don't like" they way the dominant is leading and they get it into their head that he is supposed to lead them differently. The frustrating part of this is they "won't try to top from the bottom" and tell the dominant just how that is but the way the dominant is doing it is not it. Which begs the question...is that not topping from the bottom when you have made a determination that the dominance you have been following is, for some reason, not right today? Here is where I have a difference in opinion. Isn't this example more a direct miscommunication between the people involved? I mean, we subs do have to communicate our wants/desires/needs to the dom. Granted when we are playing with our dim and the scene isn't going well, the sub needs to rely this info to their dom, I fail to see how this can be misconstrued as topping from the bottom, it's simply using communication to express a dissatisfaction or opinion knowing that it may or may not be used yet we still hope that it will be taken into consideration. How I see my responsibility in a d/s relationship is I have to communicate my feelings/thoughts/opinions etc to my dom, I have to do my best to hold up my end of the relationship to him and for him. He needs to do the same for me but from his end of the spectrum. I find it is logical especially looking at this from a different angle, the fact that yes in many ways my dom wants to ensure I am happy for the most part and I have to do the same for my dom. In this it is a two way avenue and is non negotiable to assist in having a sound and stable relationship. I am not naive to believe that all my wants/needs/desires will be satisfied all the time/when I want them to be satisfied. That is the nature of life and of willingly being in a d/s relationship. To be blatantly honest, I do not wish to have all my desires/needs fulfilled.

Owner4SexSlave -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 10:19:59 AM)
I see the whole topping from the bottom vs. communicating needs, wants, wishes and desires debate getting dragged into the middle of things. I'm simply amazed to the theory levels that get ripped about down to the atomic levels at times. Enough to drive anybody friggen insane at times. A lot of this crap is not more topping from the bottom, compared to somebody asking for a glass of water, or to go to the bathroom. I mean come on here, let's get real. A submissive or slave is still a human being that is still at some form of human functioning level. How the hell, are things such as a sub/slave sharing true and honest emotions, thoughts, feelings, desires or wants anywhere near topping from the bottom. So what if a Dom/Master grants a request. Thought was part of the reason for a sub/slave to ask for permission of things anyways. So what's the big friggen difference between asking "Master, may I please have a glass of water", compared to "Master, I enjoy having my ass spanked, would you do it?". I mean Le De Da... so what if you grant a friggen request for anything? Does this mean they are topping you from the bottom. Geeeshh. I you are DOM/Master you should be aware that you are in control of the Power to say YES/NO. Just because you say YES, does not mean they are topping you from the bottom. It's only that why if you have some form of Passive Agressive behavior. Where you say YES while really meaning NO. La De Da... I believe this is a element anytime you are in charge of anybody or anything. The power of Yes/No. Remember there's a reason why somebody asks something of you. Because you have the power to Grant or Deny. You can always ask about thier motivation for asking. I come from the school of thoughts, that's is wise and best to know what is going on inside your partners mind. To know what makes them tick. What they desire or not at times. To permit for clear lines of communication. In regards to topping from the bottom. Everybody has friggen buttons or Triggers. The key in anybody who's a DOM/Master is to be aware of your own buttons and triggers. If anybody pulls on over on you, it's a sign of your own personal weakness. Learn from people pushing your buttons, become more in tun with yourself. This way you have control if somebody (anybody) attempts to hit or push your Button or Trigger. There are times when I share with somebody exactly what my buttons/triggers are, along with a Guideline of when they should or should not attempt to hit those buttons. There are moments when I might need somebody around to HIT one of my buttons. Gasp! I just said that. Now Let me Express a real world, or real life example of this to my OWN Life. Not some made up theoritical Bull shit. If I'm in a stress out or feeling on the edge about something going on in life. It happens to everybody at some point in time. I want to make certain the sub/slave has a clear understanding in regards to how interact with me. Something besides having them run off and hide in some corner of the house because I'm in a foul mood. Personally, I don't like being a stressed out mood. I know a few things that will relax me. However, I'm a little stubborn. About like having a headache and not wanting to push for taking a pill. I wait until it gets so bad. Anyways, this is not a good thing to do with stress. Anyways, somebody can calm me down the moment... they pull out a pen or marker and offer to draw on my back. Somebody offering to rub my shoulders or back. Perhaps suggest different types of music to listen to. All as per my standing orders for "Buttons they should attempt to push". Yes, I will give somebody standing orders to push buttons, to help reel my ass back into where I should be. I am human, I know myself. I want to make certain the sub/slave knows exactly what to do, how to cope and interact with me. Now, just because they pull out a pen or marker and offer to draw on my back, or offer massage services does not mean, I will accept it. However, it reminds me very quickly that I gave them standing orders to attempt to push my buttons. It reminds me, that they are precieving a moment when I should take a deep breath and get a grip. Now this is what I call Service! The sub/slave is performing a useful function and service in my life. Being something more, beside a coffee fetcher, fuck machine, or fetish chew toy. In my opinion Weak willed Doms/Masters that are out of touch with themselves are the ones that wind up truely getting TOPPED from the BOTTOM. Big deal, there is a prospective threat of being TOPPED from the BOTTOM. You should worry if somebody not in the lifestyle can top your ass or not. If you have Mastered how to not Let every Tom, Dick, Harry and Jane control you in ways you don't want in the Real world. How the Hell is your sub/slave going to be able to do it to as well? Dugh!!! Wack Wack Wack.... I just want to slap my forehead senseless at this crazy debates that go at times here. In my book it's only topping from the bottom, if they can pull one over on your ass. If they do, you should explore the reasons why it happened. If you the type of Dom that says YES when you honestly wanted to say NO, and you have a major issue with it afterwards. Time for you to Haul your own ass in front of a fucking mirror and take some time to explore yourself a little more. First and foremost, control of yourself and your own abilities to say YES/NO and communicate with other people around you. Not just your sub/slave partner in life, but everybody around your ass. These type of issues in lifestyle relationships, tend to extend and manifest themselves with interacting with other people outside of "the lifestyle" relationship. I know I'm coming off with a bit of a rant here. It's just my perspective on this whole friggen topping from the bottom debates I see going online here at times. Come on here folks, if you are gonna be a bitching wusssy over somebody asking for something, or blow a gasket at somebody trying to push your buttons. This is crazy. If somebody tries to push a botton or top you from the bottom, and it does not work. Trust me, they will simply give up trying. You don't even have to punish them for it. Just don't fall victim to it. People will only Top your ass, and keep on doing it again, if you let them. Again, you don't even have to punish them for trying. You don't even have to bitch. You can be totally calm about it to boot. You know you are doing a great job of it, when somebody expresses how much they enjoy the fact you're not a "Push Over". It's a bit like having Kids too. If you constantly give into begging and pleading and let them wear you down time and time again. Where they do not respect the word "NO", it's because they know if they work on you long enough you'll break down and say "YES". If you are consistent and say what you honestly mean, stick to your guns and explain yourself. Listen to them as well, acknowledge their feelings are hurt as well. Well, that goes a long way when you say "NO". These concepts apply to dealing with anybody, not just limited to BDSM or "the lifestyle". Perhaps, I'm missing something here, I don't think I am. I'm starting to stick my neck out into what is naturally or not so naturally Dominant now. Think how one conducts themselves in day to day life says a lot about a person. Control aspects and such. In fact, I would hope any submissive/slave was good at knowing and dealing with the Control games people attempt to pull off in day to day. If they are lacking the skills at dealing with it, I'd be of the mindset to help her realize this bullshit. After all, I would not want some total stranger trying to control her ass. She should be able to be a reflection of me to a certain degree as well. But oh Hell.. I'm just another pervy wanker of a DOM, that's been spending a little too much time on a twisted BDSM website like this.

wwwkevinww -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 10:51:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- Do not fight for control if you choose to give it away. It is a common mistake I see when a slave/sub starts losing the feeling of being controlled and does not examine their own responsibility for the change as well as Masters. I believe this happens when a slave doesn’t take responsibility for the fact that it is was their choice to surrender in the first place. They feel "captured" and “held in place” by Master’s actions more than their own choices. A Master’s actions can only serve remind a slave of their place. Forced seduction and capture are a common romantic slave fantasy but, when the lines between the reality of their choices and their fantasy collide, they need to deal with it and hold their place with the Master. Neither surrendering nor choosing that Master were forced. A slave/sub needs to stand accountable for their choices. Misplacing either the blame or credit for surrender is emotionally abusive. It has long been my contention that in a collaring ritual, a Master should hand the slave the collar and make her put it on herself to keep the reality of her choice in place. -Kalon Eric Just saying… (part of my random BDSM philosophy for the masses) Being a slave and property doesn't mean losing your interest in survival. If the actions of the master make the slave question her survival, it needs to make choices to stop being a slave.....stop being an "it" sadism & masochism are slippery slopes, and its one thing to live out a fantasy, but another thing to set reasonable limits and abide by them. Control is the one aspect of mastery that most don't get. Its impossible to master/control every aspect of your own person, yet alone another. You do not need perfect control/mastery of yourself, you certainly shouldn't need or want perfect mastery/control of another. If a slave can decide to move a pinky, no matter how tied up she is, she still has some control, no matter how small. Its her pinky, she decided to lift it. With regard to what you said, be accountable.....do that, be accountable for your choice to master......you have an obligation to make sure whoever your with is safe.......no matter what your doing....... If anyone questions how much they can trust you, then perhaps you never built trust to begin with..... The symbolic collar is just that. Its a symbol, a pretty obvious one. If everything is consensual, then the collar can be removed, even by the slave. Once things go beyond consensual, your heading into dangerous territory.....the slave accountable for slave's choice to surrender the slave's consensual freedom, perhaps the slave is. But it was based in a certain reality of trust and expectations. You start breaking trust and expectations, and the slave should have the obligation to start breaking the bonds of slavedom......

chey -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 10:53:38 AM)
I'm not sure I have anything helpful to add but did have a question. Could it be possible that in many real time M/s relationships, the slave/sub and Master at times each become relaxed in their roles? As it was already pointed out somewhere in this thread, real life can beat us down and maybe we briefly lose sight of our dynamic. Best case scenario would be that it does not happen to both parties at the same time. I can't speak for Master but I realize when I am being less than the submissive I promised to be, sometimes after the fact but there are times I realize it as it is happening. I am probably much harder on myself than he could ever be. (Well....um..I'll leave that one alone for now) His staying consistent always brings me back. In turn when he is going through down times, maybe not leading as much as I have come to rely upon, I have to force myself to remember who I am, who we are. If I stay consistently serving...because lets face it, as time goes by without being told I know what he likes, how he wants things....he comes back as well. For me it is about being realistic. Not only taking responsibility for my own choice to submit but also being sympathetic to him. When he does the same we balance each other out. In other words, it is not in my best interest when he has let his guard down to say "screw this, I'm not doing it. He won't notice anyway." Instead keep serving. Am I not doing the serving part for him anyway? Ahhh, this was the hardest part for me. I read somewhere: Serve & expect nothing in return, in doing so you will receive all you desire. I wish I could remember where it came from. When I am a good girl and serve him whether he is being his most dominant or his least dominant, I win every time. I am rewarded by feeling good about myself, knowing I've made him happy or made his life easier somehow, he is most always appreciative and gives me praise, and whether on a conscious level or not he sees me as his slave in a good light, as very valuable to him. So yes, I win! And when he remains constant even when I am not, it pulls me back and helps me remember why we each chose to live as Master and slave.

Leatherist -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 11:01:59 AM)
fr I think this all comes down to the issue of a sub wanting to feel controlled-but wanting to feel controlled HER way. Which in reality, is not allowing an individual to excercise Dominance. It's about having a facillitator of fantasy instead. Try a role playing service top in that case-you will both be much happier.

wwwkevinww -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 11:05:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chey I'm not sure I have anything helpful to add but did have a question. Could it be possible that in many real time M/s relationships, the slave/sub and Master at times each become relaxed in their roles? As it was already pointed out somewhere in this thread, real life can beat us down and maybe we briefly lose sight of our dynamic. Best case scenario would be that it does not happen to both parties at the same time. I can't speak for Master but I realize when I am being less than the submissive I promised to be, sometimes after the fact but there are times I realize it as it is happening. I am probably much harder on myself than he could ever be. (Well....um..I'll leave that one alone for now) His staying consistent always brings me back. In turn when he is going through down times, maybe not leading as much as I have come to rely upon, I have to force myself to remember who I am, who we are. If I stay consistently serving...because lets face it, as time goes by without being told I know what he likes, how he wants things....he comes back as well. For me it is about being realistic. Not only taking responsibility for my own choice to submit but also being sympathetic to him. When he does the same we balance each other out. In other words, it is not in my best interest when he has let his guard down to say "screw this, I'm not doing it. He won't notice anyway." Instead keep serving. Am I not doing the serving part for him anyway? Ahhh, this was the hardest part for me. I read somewhere: Serve & expect nothing in return, in doing so you will receive all you desire. I wish I could remember where it came from. When I am a good girl and serve him whether he is being his most dominant or his least dominant, I win every time. I am rewarded by feeling good about myself, knowing I've made him happy or made his life easier somehow, he is most always appreciative and gives me praise, and whether on a conscious level or not he sees me as his slave in a good light, as very valuable to him. So yes, I win! And when he remains constant even when I am not, it pulls me back and helps me remember why we each chose to live as Master and slave. I think your giving examples of a healthy dynamic. Not all D/s Relationships are healthy...... I remember a story of a so-called master punching his slave dead in the mouth at a play party. The master & slave were fine with this behavior, it was the norm. The rest of the party wasn't though, and asked them to leave. As long as your in a healthy D/s relationship, more power to you. If your down a slippery slope of more pain, more pain, more pain, you'll never be masochistic enough, then its time to realize your in an unhealthy relationship. Some people are self-destructive by nature, and they need to be protected from their own natural impulses......or be handed a gun, one of the two (tongue in cheek)......

chey -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 11:10:50 AM)
I'm not sure how what I said meant I wanted to be controlled "my" way. If that is how it came across it is certainly not what I meant but I guess I do not always speak my mind clearly.

wwwkevinww -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 11:14:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chey I'm not sure how what I said meant I wanted to be controlled "my" way. If that is how it came across it is certainly not what I meant but I guess I do not always speak my mind clearly. you should actually quote who your refering to. I have no clue if your refering to me or someone else..... Usually when I do quote someone, I touch on what they said, and moved on....... The first sentence in what I quoted was about what you said being healthy, I moved on to unhealthy, the exact opposite. Nothing I said after the first sentence had anything to do with what you said..... I'm going to presume I'm wasting my time and your talking to someone else.....quote people your refering to......

Leatherist -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 11:15:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chey I'm not sure how what I said meant I wanted to be controlled "my" way. If that is how it came across it is certainly not what I meant but I guess I do not always speak my mind clearly. Fr-fast reply means "in general" . not to the one above

Owner4SexSlave -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 11:18:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chey I'm not sure I have anything helpful to add but did have a question. Could it be possible that in many real time M/s relationships, the slave/sub and Master at times each become relaxed in their roles? As it was already pointed out somewhere in this thread, real life can beat us down and maybe we briefly lose sight of our dynamic. Best case scenario would be that it does not happen to both parties at the same time. I can't speak for Master but I realize when I am being less than the submissive I promised to be, sometimes after the fact but there are times I realize it as it is happening. I am probably much harder on myself than he could ever be. (Well....um..I'll leave that one alone for now) His staying consistent always brings me back. In turn when he is going through down times, maybe not leading as much as I have come to rely upon, I have to force myself to remember who I am, who we are. If I stay consistently serving...because lets face it, as time goes by without being told I know what he likes, how he wants things....he comes back as well. For me it is about being realistic. Not only taking responsibility for my own choice to submit but also being sympathetic to him. When he does the same we balance each other out. In other words, it is not in my best interest when he has let his guard down to say "screw this, I'm not doing it. He won't notice anyway." Instead keep serving. Am I not doing the serving part for him anyway? Ahhh, this was the hardest part for me. I read somewhere: Serve & expect nothing in return, in doing so you will receive all you desire. I wish I could remember where it came from. When I am a good girl and serve him whether he is being his most dominant or his least dominant, I win every time. I am rewarded by feeling good about myself, knowing I've made him happy or made his life easier somehow, he is most always appreciative and gives me praise, and whether on a conscious level or not he sees me as his slave in a good light, as very valuable to him. So yes, I win! And when he remains constant even when I am not, it pulls me back and helps me remember why we each chose to live as Master and slave. At times the roles become relaxed. Another reason why I started working with different protocol levels. I often refer to them a bit like Gears in a car too. It's extremely difficult to be in high gear 24/7 all year long. Even lower gears (almost vanilla) it's still M/s, just the transparency is if a little different. I totally understand about you taking things hard upon yourself. It's been my experience that submissive s-types will be kicking their own ass, often harder at times then I could dream of doing. I keep posting about that one, from time to time on the message boards. I really don't understand this whole bit about treating D/s or M/s likes it pulling anybody's teeth. It's something that really does not require a lot of extreme force. Save save the force of a good flogging now and then! LOL... If the desire to truely serve another human being is really and truely there, there really should not be some strange issues behind force. It's just a matter of tapping into it. The thing that many Doms/Master fail to understand is how frustrating it is for their sub/slaves to not be of great service or use. Basically, where the sub/slave feels neglected. Call it "Master does not use me, value my services, or has me doing enough for him" at time type of mindset. There's a difference between Owning a slave, and making use of slave! You see, it's a bit like anything else one has for property or owns. If you don't use it or do something with it, eventually it makes it way into the garage, basement or attic. Perhaps to be thrown out or sold at a Yard Sale later. Trust me, sub/slaves start to get the same sense that this will happen to them too. That is if they no longer feel of value or use. They start to worry about being shoved away into a corner, eventually to be gotten rid of. Some Dom/Master have this shut up I don't want to hear it attitude while they shove the sub/slave off to the side. Sends out a warning signals to the sub/slave. They start to no longer feel like prized or valued property. Tends to trigger fears that they might be tossed out during Spring Cleaning. Perhaps traded in for a different Make and Model. All kinds of not so fun thought start to enter the sub/slaves mind. I honestly think, if more D-types understood the s-type mindset or frame of mind, they would understand this without questioning shit so much. It's actually a pretty easy concept to grasp.

Leatherist -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 11:21:07 AM)
Fears are pretty simple. Take a moment to explain how you are feeling-or what you need to do.

chey -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 11:22:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wwwkevinww quote: ORIGINAL: chey I'm not sure how what I said meant I wanted to be controlled "my" way. If that is how it came across it is certainly not what I meant but I guess I do not always speak my mind clearly. you should actually quote who your refering to. I have no clue if your refering to me or someone else..... Usually when I do quote someone, I touch on what they said, and moved on....... The first sentence in what I quoted was about what you said being healthy, I moved on to unhealthy, the exact opposite. Nothing I said after the first sentence had anything to do with what you said..... I'm going to presume I'm wasting my time and your talking to someone else.....quote people your refering to...... I actually was not responding to you post. I apologize, I now know how to quote. Please forgive my lack of experience on the message boards. Our posts have nothing to do with each other, I realize what you are saying about healthy and unhealthy. Honestly I do not think I brought up the subject of healthy but will have to go re-read what I wrote now.

chey -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 11:23:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist quote: ORIGINAL: chey I'm not sure how what I said meant I wanted to be controlled "my" way. If that is how it came across it is certainly not what I meant but I guess I do not always speak my mind clearly. Fr-fast reply means "in general" . not to the one above Leatherist thank you. I did not know that.

wwwkevinww -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 11:31:30 AM)
not everyone uses fast reply, some people actually do reply to certain people.....

CreativeDominant -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 11:33:11 AM)
quote: "La De Da... I believe this is a element anytime you are in charge of anybody or anything. The power of Yes/No. Remember there's a reason why somebody asks something of you. Because you have the power to Grant or Deny. You can always ask about thier motivation for asking. " No one is denying this, Whip...and while I can't speak for the other dominants who have replied here, I can speak for myself. I am not denying it either. What is being spoken of specifically is those submissives who want you to dominate them in a way they see fit, even...and especially when...that way does not correlate to the style of dominance they agreed to in the beginning. As for asking them their motivation behind asking for something, I agree that in many cases, the information can be useful. Many times, it can become an exercise in frustration. quote: In my book it's only topping from the bottom, if they can pull one over on your ass. If they do, you should explore the reasons why it happened. If you the type of Dom that says YES when you honestly wanted to say NO, and you have a major issue with it afterwards. Time for you to Haul your own ass in front of a fucking mirror and take some time to explore yourself a little more. If they pull it over on you, then it is *successful* topping from the bottom. Attempting it is trying to top from the bottom...and I admit, I left out the "trying to" in my statement. I feel it occurs...perhaps you don't. A difference in opinion. quote: It's a bit like having Kids too. If you constantly give into begging and pleading and let them wear you down time and time again. Where they do not respect the word "NO", it's because they know if they work on you long enough you'll break down and say "YES". If you are consistent and say what you honestly mean, stick to your guns and explain yourself. Listen to them as well, acknowledge their feelings are hurt as well. Well, that goes a long way when you say "NO". These concepts apply to dealing with anybody, not just limited to BDSM or "the lifestyle". Perhaps, I'm missing something here, I don't think I am. The biggest difference though is that, in most instances, your kids are going to realize that they ARE your kids and not an adult and that it is not quite as easy for them to walk away when they don't like being told "no" when they want it to be "yes" nor are they going to decide that it is time to look for another set of parents because you are not parenting them "their way". I believe I addressed in my posts on this thread and posts I have made in the past the importance of acknowledging your submissive's wants and needs and desires, their emotional base, their feelings, their thoughts, their ideas, their input. I have done all of that in my past D/s dynamics and I see no reason for my failing to do that now. I have stated that I believe there is room for two partners in the relationship...with all that partnership in a D/s dynamic negotiated between the two of you and discussed in an ongoing manner means; that doesn't change the fact that I am of the belief that there is room for only one leader and it is not the submissive. And she knows that from the outset.

chey -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 11:33:58 AM)
Owner that makes complete sense to me. It has been some time now but there was a point when I was acting out. I could not put my finger on the reason but my behavior was hurting me and him because he cares so much, and I could not figure out why I was hurting. Until one night we sat down and really started talking about some things. What had happened was that his other slave lived there at that point. In all actuality he spent more quality time with me but it was not the time or even that she lived there that bothered me. I felt as if she cooked, cleaned, ran daily errands and I had no purpose. I kept saying I felt useless and he thought I meant unloved. We had this miscommunication until we were face to face and he could see the pain in my eyes. I explained further, then the light bulb went on for both of us. He had been wanting to use me to help with his business but had not asked. From that day on I became very involved with his business and those incidents stopped. (I am not saying it was proper of me to have the melt downs to begin with mind you, we all mess up sometimes). Communication is so important and yet often so difficult.

CreativeDominant -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 11:45:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant But, this thread is about submissive responsibility and, like it or not, there comes those times when...for whatever reason...the submissive does not choose to submit because they "don't like" they way the dominant is leading and they get it into their head that he is supposed to lead them differently. The frustrating part of this is they "won't try to top from the bottom" and tell the dominant just how that is but the way the dominant is doing it is not it. Which begs the question...is that not topping from the bottom when you have made a determination that the dominance you have been following is, for some reason, not right today? Here is where I have a difference in opinion. Isn't this example more a direct miscommunication between the people involved? I mean, we subs do have to communicate our wants/desires/needs to the dom. Granted when we are playing with our dim and the scene isn't going well, the sub needs to rely this info to their dom, I fail to see how this can be misconstrued as topping from the bottom, it's simply using communication to express a dissatisfaction or opinion knowing that it may or may not be used yet we still hope that it will be taken into consideration. How I see my responsibility in a d/s relationship is I have to communicate my feelings/thoughts/opinions etc to my dom, I have to do my best to hold up my end of the relationship to him and for him. He needs to do the same for me but from his end of the spectrum. I find it is logical especially looking at this from a different angle, the fact that yes in many ways my dom wants to ensure I am happy for the most part and I have to do the same for my dom. In this it is a two way avenue and is non negotiable to assist in having a sound and stable relationship. I am not naive to believe that all my wants/needs/desires will be satisfied all the time/when I want them to be satisfied. That is the nature of life and of willingly being in a d/s relationship. To be blatantly honest, I do not wish to have all my desires/needs fulfilled. You have a point bear and yes, it can be an example of miscommunication IF the submissive and dominant do try to communicate about the issue. But...I was referring to the times when the submissive does not communicate but rather decides that the dominant is "not doing it right" because his way...though it may have been going on for the entire balance of their relationship...is striking him/her in the wrong way today (for whatever reason) and tries to manipulate the dominant through no submission or grudging submission, then that submissive is *attempting (gotta get that word in)* to "top from the bottom" because they are trying to make it run "their" way, not the dominant's. Whether it is successful or not depends on the dominant's reaction but it is an attempt. Cmail me furred one, if you want to discuss further.

Owner4SexSlave -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 12:09:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chey Owner that makes complete sense to me. It has been some time now but there was a point when I was acting out. I could not put my finger on the reason but my behavior was hurting me and him because he cares so much, and I could not figure out why I was hurting. Until one night we sat down and really started talking about some things. What had happened was that his other slave lived there at that point. In all actuality he spent more quality time with me but it was not the time or even that she lived there that bothered me. I felt as if she cooked, cleaned, ran daily errands and I had no purpose. I kept saying I felt useless and he thought I meant unloved. We had this miscommunication until we were face to face and he could see the pain in my eyes. I explained further, then the light bulb went on for both of us. He had been wanting to use me to help with his business but had not asked. From that day on I became very involved with his business and those incidents stopped. (I am not saying it was proper of me to have the melt downs to begin with mind you, we all mess up sometimes). Communication is so important and yet often so difficult. I've had a number of those light bulb moments over the years. In fact this made me stop and realize the importance of getting inside my partners minds, exploring things with them, rephrasing questions. Even exploring what if situations ahead of time. When somebody expresses they don't feel valued or that they are feeling worthless, I tend to probe for other things besides there sense of being loved and cared for. There was a point in time, where I did not get it. Until I went through a "light bulb" moment. As Leatherist pointed out "Fears are pretty simple. Take a moment to explain how you are feeling-or what you need to do." Sub/slaves that tip toe around me like they are walking on egg shells, tend to make me uncomfortable and nervous. In fact anybody walking around me like this period, makes me feel the same way. I tend to make the hault whatever it is they are doing, think they are trying to do. I'll get to the point and ask questions. In short, I don't like being surrounded by uneasy people. If something is on your mind, my spidey senses tend to pick up on it. The thing is, that some s-types are lost in their own world fighting with themselves, over saying or not saying anything at times. You know, like if they do express what's on their mind, they have somehow violated some secret submissive code of conduct and somebody is going to revoke their membership for it.

chickpea -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/26/2008 12:16:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave quote: ORIGINAL: chey Owner that makes complete sense to me. It has been some time now but there was a point when I was acting out. I could not put my finger on the reason but my behavior was hurting me and him because he cares so much, and I could not figure out why I was hurting. Until one night we sat down and really started talking about some things. As Leatherist pointed out "Fears are pretty simple. Take a moment to explain how you are feeling-or what you need to do." Sub/slaves that tip toe around me like they are walking on egg shells, tend to make me uncomfortable and nervous. In fact anybody walking around me like this period, makes me feel the same way. I tend to make the hault whatever it is they are doing, think they are trying to do. I'll get to the point and ask questions. In short, I don't like being surrounded by uneasy people. If something is on your mind, my spidey senses tend to pick up on it. The thing is, that some s-types are lost in their own worlding fighting themselves, over saying or not saying anything at times. You know, like if they do express what's on their mind, they have somehow violated some secret submissive code of conduct and somebody is going to revoke their membership for it. Maybe the Dom needs to create an environment where he gets the proper reaction from the sub. Kinda like the open door policy of the boss... You can have an office that's tense yet gets the job done (by being a strict, ruthless, brutal boss that maybe intends well but doesn't come across that way since he doesn't proclaim AND re-inforce the "open door policy" or some other Kumbaya gimmick) OR you can have an office that is open, relaxed, fun, and gets the job done (by PROACTIVELY treating your subordinates in a way that brings the best out of them.... that's called PROACTIVE TOPPING)... And if that doesn't work, then it's not about the behavior and more about not being the right person.

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