stella41b
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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
The difference between poor people and trashy people doesn't lie in material things, or practical skills. It is purely about outlook on life and living. It is about personal responsibility, and a well-intentioned system that fostered a total lack of it.
This is where the main problem lies. Social stigma. Social stigma is when you pick on someone due to some aspect about them and regard them as inferior as a result. This isn't about race, it isn't about culture, it's about social stigma.
There's three types of social stigma (1) identity or appearance based social stigma which could be for example a disability, a deformity, obesity, (2) social stigma through lifestyle or behaviour here we have numerous examples, criminals, welfare claimants, gays, the homeless, transsexuals and (3) tribal social stigma which affects a whole group of people who share the same trait seen as negative, a different skin colour, a specific religion.
There's a process of social stigma, which is expressing social disapproval of someone for such negative traits, and it starts by differentiation, labelling,. stereotyping, and creating simplified either or categories e.g. heterosexual and gay, white and black, or in the above example poor people and 'trashy' people. This is so as to create two groups 'us' and ;them' based usually on generalizations and half-baked assumptions to justify such prejudice. This leads to status loss, discrimination and social exclusion.
The problem is the people in the 'us' group feel a sense of entitlement to hold such views and express such feelings through passive hostility, resentment, or even in more extreme cases verbal or physical attacks. Another problem is that the people who are subjected to social stigma from others take on that social stigma and internalize it, and it demotivates them, and as a reaction they may in turn adopt the same tactics in retaliation.
Let's just see how the OP makes such judgments and forms such an opinion:
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It is purely about outlook on life and living. It is about personal responsibility
Really? On what basis? Observation? Or by comparison with someone in the 'us' group? Further...
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And my tax dollars are paying the rent.
Is this another assumption? Has the OP been informed by someone that his tax dollars will be going specifically to paying someone's welfare or housing costs? By who? Notice also the clever ploy employed by the OP making himself out to be a victim of such people by claiming they are costing me personally money
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It is about the destruction of good places to live, by total ignorant assholes with the best of intentions.
Again further judgment by the OP.
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It's about replacing one failure of liberalism with another that is even worse.
Since when did this become a political argument? But you see the same way of thinking, liberals (generalization) are wrong, I am not a liberal, I am right. An excellent example of attaching a label to a group of people by way of tribal social stigma. Liberals are assholes.
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"Puzzling." That's a neat word to describe it when the facts prove the theory completely wrong.
Not to me it isn't. From what I read in the article the projects were based on the same type of thinking as the OP. The same labelling, stereotyping, attaching the social stigma.
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Make sure they are always the victims of any story we tell.
Notice here how 'victims' is used with heavy irony and derision.
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We are the baa-aaad ones.
Well you are if you choose to take it that way. I don't see it that way. I prefer to look at things a little more objectively. This has got everything to do with social issues, and not really much to do with people. More on this later.
And oh, I nearly missed this one. The 'get a job you lazy bum' strategic answer to solving complex social issues:
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Skill level in industry??? Around here, the skill requirements came down to show up with a work ethic and speak English. They waived speak English, while the parking lot at the satellite welfare office grew onto the street.
You know I'm tempted to start another thread here asking the question 'Just how easy is it to find a job?' Maybe there are some of you out there who are currently looking for work who may care to enlighten the OP just how easy it is to actually find a job. I don't know how it is in the States. Here in the UK unless you know someone or have something arranged it's almost impossible to just walk into a job. You've either got to go through an agency, or submit a CV, references, a passport, documents, proof of ID, sometimes even have a CRB (criminal record check) done, submit applications - it's challenging even if you're educated, experienced, and a shining example of social respectability. The problem is when you have someone with a issues such as gaps in employment history, illnesses, periods of being on welfare, drug/alcohol issues, criminal records, it actually starts to look unrealistic and the whole 'get a job you lazy bum' argument simply doesn't stand up.
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A whole lot more complicated than the do-gooders "with all the answers" are willing to admit, even as their unintended consequences destroy the quality of life for more and more hard-working people.
Oh and not forgetting..
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Oh, the theorists are right. My departure opened up a house that was rented by drug dealers. The spiral of their victimhood continued but they, not my wife and I, were the victims. We are the baa-aaad ones. I should have stayed, had my house robbed a few times, and my car vandalized afterward for "snitching." That was my role in the grand experiment. Increased crime would be acceptable if the plan worked?!?!?! Not to me, thank you very much. Fuck that. Fuck them.
Now I'm writing as someone who as been street homeless, on welfare, I've worked my way up through the system to create a theatre and a charity dealing specifically with these issues, for which I am working on at this moment in time two projects here in London - one involving the homeless, and another to work towards racial harmony - I could find the above rather offensive. But I won't.
I did my pilot project over six months in 2006 in a hostel for the homeless involving 15 participants running theatre workshops. All had been street homeless, all were on welfare, 4 had long term alcohol issues, 5 had major drug issues, 3 were mentally ill, 1 was illiterate, 3 had criminal records for violent crimes, and 1 victim of domestic violence. A follow up in 2007 revealed that of the 15 only 2 are still awaiting rehousing, 1 still has drug issues and is homeless and on welfare, 1 has alcohol issues the rest have no issues, have been rehoused, resettled, and are gainfully employed.
People are people - everybody is somebody. Even the 'trashy' people some of who are literally reduced to the state of trash, human trash sleeping on the streets night in night out by a society which no longer cares or wants to help them. A society and a system, which is far from well-intentioned, blames them for their own misfortune.
Call me a do-gooder if you like, I don't care, I've been called much worse. People are people, and yes, some of them make very bad life choices, some of them make incredibly stupid life choices, self-destructive life choices, and life choices which lead directly to their own deaths - but this doesn't change the fact that they're still people. But you know some have had traumatic childhoods, difficult pasts, some have had their livelihoods taken away, gone through divorces, some have never had a proper education, never had the opportunity, there are as many reasons as there are social problems.
I agree with the OP on one issue - the projects were doomed to fail from the start. How would I describe the thinking that went behind the projects? Clueless. Totally clueless. You see crime has got nothing to do with people, housing, backgrounds, and it's got everything to do with motivation, opportunity and risk calculation.
My own roots are very poor, I too was brought up in social housing, nice to know I'm a 'trashy' person. Kind of blows the OP's argument right out of the water, doesn't it?
But do you know what, I give the people credit for trying to solve the social problems. Five posts on his own OP and I have yet to see the OP come up with anything other than invective, generalizations and half-baked assumptions. Sure, it's always someone else's fault. I'm decent, I'm hardworking, I pay my taxes. Good for you OP, and I sincerely cross my fingers for you and hope you don't have to suffer the same dramatic change of circumstances as I have and many other people have had to live through.
These are complex social problems and I could go on and on here, but they do actually have causes:
1. Technological advances which have revolutionized the way we work, live, even conduct relationships, which s transfrmed society and shrunk the employment market.
2. The trickle down theory of capitalism based on the premise that the only measure of success is making profit, making money, where people are conditioned to compete against one another and are judged on the basis of their usefulness and profitability to the rest of society.
3. Thanks to 1. and 2. a shift in emphasis from family, community and culture to an emphasis on the workplace, longer working hours, a need for both parents to work to be able to adequately provide for a family.
4. Mass media control over culture, commercialization of the music and entertainment industries, misuse of the role of television, mass marketing and consumerism, a celebrity culture promoting negative stereotypes and role models.
5. An almost complete and total abdication of responsibility by governments and society as a whole with a passive aggressive strategy on welfare and social benefits.
Yes I do have a theory. Yes the theory works. Do I have all the answers? No, I don't. But I do knowe that I am not the only one with a good theory, there are many others, not least here in London and a consensus forming that maybe society needs to be rebuilt from the bottom up.
Almost a quarter of a century has passed but from what I can see nothing really constructive has come about to address these social issues other than leaving it to 'every man for himself'. What a brilliant way to prevent crime, I must say.
My suggestion is that seeing as it is so hard to find employment, especially for such people, then maybe we should be looking more towards finding meaningful occupation. Is finding a job the only answer? No, it isn't. What about self-employment? Setting up local community sporting, cultural and entertainment projects?
I think we need to find a more proactive approach to people on welfare. Giving people welfare just for being unemployed doesn't solve anything, some are motivated, others aren't. Something for nothing. I say have two levels of welfare for unemployed people - starvation rates for those who want to sit at home and do nothing and higher rates for those who get involved in community, voluntary or similar type work. There needs to be a greater emphasis on education, training, developing adequate skills.
Everybody is somebody, people have knowledge, skills, interests, talents, usually if you invest in people you get a return. I bet if the local welfare office provided loans to the unemployed for say musical instruments so they could set up bands I bet you there would be a rush on guitar, singing and drumming lessons and two or three years later the States would have a brilliant music industry. Occupying people is a very good way of removing their need or motivation to commit crimes.
There also needs to be an effective criminal justice system and tougher penalties. This might lengthen the odds when it comes to risk assessment.
But the most important thing which would eliminate many social problems today is to eliminate the social stigma. We need to get away from believing that there's 'untermenschen' or an underclass. We need to welcome the socially excluded back into society.
Oh, and lastly, you do need a government who works with the people, not against them.
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