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RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 5:45:55 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
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quote:

leader

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Well, I'm probably somewhere over on the OP's clump of "people who don't get it". Yes, I base my M/s relationship on love and really don't see how I could do it any other way... FOR ME.

In addition, It's pretty obvious that a fair number of the "M/s" relationships based on kink don't make it in the longhaul.

What that leaves out are the "non love" (for want of a better term) M/s relationships that DO make it over time (and about which I would LOVE to know a lot more) and those for whom making a relationship last over time isn't a priority (not my place to judge what goals someone has).

Was that drama?

Nah, it's a great question.

I think it's fair to say LOTS of relationships don't make it over the long haul; I don't think the presence (or lack) of love is an indication of the likelihood of success. I think the fact that there are mutually compatible goals, in any relationship, speaks far more about the potential to survive than anything else; if a mutual goal is to have a relationship based on a love of cars, then when you take the cars away, there's not going to be much left.

Lots of marriages endure, long after the fires of romance and love die down, because there remains a friendship and mutual goals of maintaining the structure of family; kids, a house, etc.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 21

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 5:54:49 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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Please see the following post.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 6/24/2008 5:57:23 PM >

_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to charlotteS)

Post #: 22

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 5:56:38 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Softness

Just because love isn't the basis of a particular type of relationship, doesn't mean it is there - just means it came after the foundations were laid.

I had to quote this, too, since it is very much the way I feel about the subject.

If anyone wanted to take the time and trouble to research My posts from about nine months ago, (which I don't want to, btw) they would see that I very specifically stated that I did not "love" My submissive. Just like as stated above, our dynamic wasn't based on that. It was based on his wanting to submit to Me, and My wanting to accept his submission.

That being said, it doesn't mean that a love, though not a romantic one, didn't grow from that root. It was something that came along later. I consider it to be a benefit of the dynamic, but not a mandatory component. Had there not been a type of love found, it would not have been a negative to the relationship.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to charlotteS)

Post #: 23

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 6:28:29 PM

Cuffkinks

Posts: 1780
Joined: 5/5/2004
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I met a submissive. I tested a submissive. I claimed a submissive.
I fell in love with a woman. The fact that she happens to be My submissive is sheer fate. I came into My present relationship not thinking I was ever going to fall in love again in My life. The bottom line is...You can't help who you fall for. Love doesn't know logic, or common sense. It just happens.
Personally, I do believe you can have a BDSM relationship without love. In fact, I was planning on it. I think it can be a very fulfilling one. I also understand the point Steel made about how love can make a BDSM relationship more difficult because the "obey or leave" element is gone if you're in love with somone. But, with a deep emotional bond, I find I can go deeper into My girl's mind because there is that bond, and with it...trust.
I'm not sure all this makes sense to anyone other than Myself...But, what the hell.

_____________________________

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"I love you, Sir. You make my heart sing and my panties wet. What more could a girl ask for?" - hejira92

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(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 24

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 6:31:14 PM

SimplyMichael

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Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Stephann,

We all know how love works, at least on some level. I can easily see how a loveless part time relationship can work, that is how I do poly when I choose to. However, I think you were speaking of long term primary partner real world relationships? So...

What exactly is the connection in a loveless D/s relationship?
What exactly forms the basis of the commitment?
Do either seek love outside of the relationship?
If they don't want love, why not or what replaces or surplants it?

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 25

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 6:31:59 PM

Shadow-tiger

Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/8/2008
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

softness has been making a few posts about M/s dynamics that aren't love fueled. She's gotten a lot of flak for it. I realize that most people hinge their D/s relationships on the love and emotional connection. A small segment of our community does it differently; in our case, I love my slave, but our M/s dynamic doesn't hinge on our emotional connection. We aren't Master and slave because I love her, we are Master and slave, because she serves me well as a slave. If she ceases to function as an adequate slave, it would require a very different type of relationship (though, I suspect, that would mean we have to become someone we're not.)

As someone who is very prone to becoming emotionally involved I have to say that the dynamic between yourself and softness has taken me a bit of time to wrap my head around. This is a really great way of laying things out, yet I can say it never would have occured to me in such a straightforward way.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 26

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 6:33:19 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

I think that as a monogamous person, I feel a non love based relationship simply couldn't satisfy all my needs. Now for someone in a love relationship who also has a d/s relationship, it could work.

But long term, most emotionally healthy people need to be loved. If the only relationship you have doesn't fill that need, then how do you get it filled?

_____________________________

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(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 27

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 6:38:42 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

My issue tends to be whenever someone tries to disenfranchise another.

It's not about what you love or don't love- beyond your own relationship who the hell cares?

It's respecting and truly encouraging everyone to seek what they love for themselves. That's what people have problems with.

And I see no difference here- I see lots of "down with pink handcuffs!" vibes, and that's just as bad as anything.

If anything, I see just as much love bashing in the Ms dynamics as I do dynamic bashing in the love dynamics.

I happen to be someone who embraces both for myself. But again, who the hell cares? I do what works for me and I support everyone to do exactly the same.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 28

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 6:47:01 PM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

It would be just fabulous if all the cold, unloving people could have lip tattoos or something, so that they could be clearly identified, and hook up with each other. Think of the time saved!

I have done both kinds of relationships, and both have worked. People are astoundingly complex, as anyone who has been on these boards more than a day and a half could figure out. As long as you know what you need and want, and pursue that, rather than compromising your most basic needs for the sake of someone else's reality, what is wrong with love, or non-love?

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 29

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 7:02:44 PM

DarkVictory

Posts: 247
Joined: 8/7/2004
Status: offline

I think its relatively straightforward. I believe that people, wrongly, attach significance to love. Specifically, I think that people believe that love will foster a longer lasting relationship than anything else will. That's a huge mistake. I believe that a well negotiated M/s relationship based on common likes / dislikes, interests, etc can at least potentially have a stronger base than a relationship based on ephemeral brain chemistry.

I love my slaves, I always will. But the love comes after the slavery.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 30

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 7:14:00 PM

summersprite

Posts: 101
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

leader

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Well, I'm probably somewhere over on the OP's clump of "people who don't get it". Yes, I base my M/s relationship on love and really don't see how I could do it any other way... FOR ME.

In addition, It's pretty obvious that a fair number of the "M/s" relationships based on kink don't make it in the longhaul.

What that leaves out are the "non love" (for want of a better term) M/s relationships that DO make it over time (and about which I would LOVE to know a lot more) and those for whom making a relationship last over time isn't a priority (not my place to judge what goals someone has).

Was that drama?

Nah, it's a great question.

I think it's fair to say LOTS of relationships don't make it over the long haul; I don't think the presence (or lack) of love is an indication of the likelihood of success. I think the fact that there are mutually compatible goals, in any relationship, speaks far more about the potential to survive than anything else; if a mutual goal is to have a relationship based on a love of cars, then when you take the cars away, there's not going to be much left.

Lots of marriages endure, long after the fires of romance and love die down, because there remains a friendship and mutual goals of maintaining the structure of family; kids, a house, etc.

Stephan

And therein lies the problem for me (see above in pink).... "to endure".... to bear patiently, to tolerate or put up with, to last for a long time.
Yes, I know you probably meant the last part of that definition ;-) ... but with my marriage I found at the end of the day.... friendship and mutual goals were not enough and were making me feel hollow inside. For some reason, I'm one of those who likes a little love and passion with my relationships. Not knocking those that can do it without love. Just saying that I find any kind of sexual connection often leads to emotional connection and invariably if I'm that involved then over a period of time... there will be some love too.

And I do know that the OP's point was about having a M/s or D/s relationhip without love.... but like someone else pointed out on this thread - love allowed her to go deeper into the relationship..... and I think I'd have to agree with that.

< Message edited by summersprite -- 6/24/2008 7:35:08 PM >

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 31

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 7:45:23 PM

charlotteS

Posts: 203
Joined: 3/9/2008
Status: offline

Ok I'm home from work and had a little more time to think on this. I admit I might have a bit of an unfair advantage in that I know the OP rather well

but I don't think that the topic was supposed to be about "loveless" relationships.

Personally I see Master and I having a relationship full of love. But the Master/slave dynamic we share is not based entirely on love. Master just told this story in another thread but I feel it relates to this topic. Earlier this month Master removed my collar. I was having a really hard time with slavery, was faced with feeling that my family and friends no longer understood me and in a breakdown of frustration told Master that I didn't know if I could be his slave. He removed my collar and I was lost, confused, hurt and left pretty much gasping for air. He asked me how I was feeling and I told him I was afraid of losing him. He explained then that I wasn't losing him. He needed me to re-evaluate what it was I wanted and needed out of our relationship. He assured me that if I had come to a point where I didn't feel I could serve him as his slave any longer that he still loved me and wanted me in his life. He was willing to re-evaluate our relationship and see if maybe we could work as Dominant/submissive or boyfriend/girlfriend. However he wasn't willing to own a slave on any terms other than his own.

I felt much better after he told me that. There was love between us, and I could trust that it would stay. But the M/s dynamic isn't built on that love. No matter how much we love each other we will continue to maintain that dynamic based on structure, obedience, responsibility etc. Knowing that made me feel even more secure. I knew that I didn't have to be his slave because I loved him. I only had to be his slave if it was what I truly desired based on what I wanted out of a relationship, not on a need for love. Until that night I had never been quite sure if I wanted to be his slave because I wanted to maintain that dynamic or because I had fallen in love with the man and was playing whatever role he wanted me in order to keep him. It was a huge weight off my shoulders.

As I begged his collar the next morning I felt truly humbled as I realized that I had been allowing our love to let me get complacent and confused. I will always love Master but as he said, not "because" he his my Master, neither do I serve him because I love him. Thus our M/s dynamic isn't based on love but it is far from loveless.

charlotte

_____________________________

"When you are your freest self, who are you?" Jack Rinella

(in reply to summersprite)

Post #: 32

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 8:01:32 PM

Skully7000

Posts: 377
Joined: 7/22/2007
Status: offline

Very enjoyable post and following comments. It's helped me answer a few questions and raises a few more.

on a sidenote:
Don't diss the pink fuzzy!
I personally would love to own a pair of matte black handcuffs with Hot pink fuzzy lining...
I think it would be sexy as hell.
Cheers
Skully

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 33

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 8:09:36 PM

NeedingMore220

Posts: 615
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline

Charlotte, your explanation really moved me - thank you for sharing such a personal story. It illustrated the point perfectly.

(in reply to charlotteS)

Post #: 34

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 8:09:45 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

~ Fast Reply ~

I am wildly, madly, and crazy in love with him. I love that he lets me love him and express that love the way I have needed to love all along. I love that he accepts my submission in all the ways I need to express it to him. Whether he loves me in return or not (sometimes I am certain he does; sometimes I am certain he does not) is inconsequential to my incredible desire to add as much to his life as I can. He lets me be me, and accepts me for me - what else could I want??

Edited to add, our M/s dynamic was always based on Dominance and submission. I submitted to him before I ever loved him. My love for him came later, and has grown ever since. But if I did not submit to him, and if he did not Master me, this relationship would not continue.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 6/24/2008 8:12:53 PM >

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

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Post #: 35

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 8:10:06 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

I started off basing my dynamics without the aspect of an organic connection, because I didn't think I was capable of forming one with another person.

That's recently changed and is quickly turning out to be one of the most life-changing months of my life.

M/S and our expressions of our orientation provide a powerful gateway to intimacy, but if this continues to grow into a committed relationship, the dynamic itself still won't be based on that connection. It's based on obedience.

If there came a point in time when that dynamic couldn't be maintained, she would no longer be a slave to me. Whether or not, we had a different kind of dynamic would defend on my feelings at the time and how strong the connection is between us.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

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(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 36

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 8:15:04 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
BDSM is a form of self-expression. People on spiritual paths incorporate it into their spiritual journeys. People in love incorporate it into their lovemaking. People who are freaks use it to get their freak on. Sometimes one individual does all of those things at once. That triple combination is what I try to achieve. Other people will have different motivations.

I think is this probably one of the most important insights about BDSM, D/S, M/S, ESPN, or whatever that someone can learn.

All the things that we do are simply symbols and the meaning of those symbols is determined by the individuals involved.

It's why all the "(Insert Acronym Here) lifestyle is about (Insert love, spirituality, whatever here)" people annoy the hell out of me.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 37

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 8:16:19 PM

Racquelle

Posts: 600
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann So, this is an attempt to discuss D/s relationship dynamics that aren't emotion/love oriented. Why do so many people feel that such relationships are somehow deficient or inferior?

The D/s relationship that brings me the most pleasure is with the sub that I love (and yes, married.) I take play very seriously though, and enjoy my time with my less-serious play friends a great deal. I value emotional connection even if it is not deep or everlasting. For me, the type of D/s relationship devoid of love or affection would be inferior. However, it is not my place to project my personal preferences onto all others. Do what you may and harm none.

< Message edited by Racquelle -- 6/24/2008 8:17:05 PM >

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 38

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 8:37:59 PM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

For the same reasons people think that love-based relationships are inferior. We have been taught to run with a "we are right" and "they are wrong" attitude throughout life.

Master Fire

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The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 39

RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 8:56:08 PM

WhisperSupremacy

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/7/2008
Status: offline

I require love within my d/s relationships also, but if it's not nessessary for others, then so be it.... to each his own.

Pink fuzzy handcuffs are extremely gay though.

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 40

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