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RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 11:48:05 PM

oblige

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This topic is so timely for me. For the first time in my life I am beginning a potential relationship with clearer perameters which suit us as we negotiate and get to know one another, and that is the foundation of a D/s relationship dynamic. I desire to serve, he desires to Dominate and be served and that dynamic one another's needs. If love grows after or as this relationship is developed, great. Iif not, we will still potentially have a D/s or M/s relationship based on power exchange, mutual repect and many other things we are discovering which meet both our needs.

It is fascinating to be exploring this beginning a relationship minus the flames or warm fuzzies of love which fueled my past relationships in their beginnings. In many ways I feel safer opening up and being more genuinely myself early on minus love. I just feel this using my head at first and not so much my emotions is being a very good thing for me as a newly realized sub in mid life.

As to why some judge either love based or non love based relationships--who knows? It seems people tend to filter what we see through our own beliefs and experiences. Perhaps it is just human to boost one's own beliefs and comfort zones by seeing the "other" as deficient--when really, they are just different and neither way has more or less merit as a relatioonship model. To me, they are each viable ways to proceed. Probably this is similar to the "your kink is not my kink" arguments that crop up here a lot.. Thanks everyone for this good discussion. Be well, ~oblige

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RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/24/2008 11:55:29 PM

Leatherist

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Very good, starting without infatuation as a basis for attraction is very clear headed. And it does steady things out and let you see farther ahead. I think one of the main reasons that these things fizzle so quickly is that they are pretty much based on an emotional and physical intensity addiction that just cannot be sustained long term. Even worse, it comes with an expectation of that addiction being instantly gratified. Total lack of grounding in anything resembling reality.

And once the "new relationship" magic wears off, people lose interest, and begin picking at little things as an excuse to go find more-with someone else new. It's really rather childish-it's nice to see that some folks can still approach it from a more adult perspective.

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RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/25/2008 2:57:11 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
So, this is an attempt to discuss D/s relationship dynamics that aren't emotion/love oriented. Why do so many people feel that such relationships are somehow deficient or inferior?

Stephan

Why does anyone think anything is deficient or inferior? Because of fear - lack of comprehending anothers choices - because people would like others to conform to their own ethics.

But Ds or Ms relationships do not have to revolve around love anymore than any other relationship does. But bashing a relationship based on love occurs just as much as non love based relationships. Personally I like pink fluffy cuffs and can even be sometimes heard to go 'awwww' when I see them - I definately don't hate them. That would be overkill to me. I don't own a pair so it's all cool but more power to those who do and wear them openly.

In another thread I mentioned my belief that people notice what they are sensitive to. I totally stand by that.

the.dark.

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RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/25/2008 3:56:17 AM

MsMillgrove

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I checked thru the thread to see if others made a certain point and a few have done so, however I wish to repeat it in a personal way.

There are different kinds of love--you do not love a child, a spouse, a lover, a friend, a god in the same way. Each can be loved--but each is loved differently.
My slave/sub is loved by me, but not in the same way I love any of the above.

I did not have any love or lust for the slave when I collared her. She accepted my collar because we had a friendship, we'd spoken on many topics. We knew we matched in attitude and beliefs. The number of obstacles we had to overcome -- huge. Barely spoke the same language for starters. List of negatives was long. Didn't match in experiences with kink, had different limits. Reason why we started out together was based on our mutual understanding of d/s...we defined it in same way.. our responsilbities to one another.

Every week I spank the slave to re-affirm our relationship. We are mistress and slave. Period. She repeats that she is being spanked to remind her that I am not her friend or lover, I am her mistress. I own her.

And that is why I came to love her, because I own her, because she is the most valuable possession i have in the world. She is to me the equivelant of the Hope Diamond. She loves me too, because I value her. I tell her she is my treasure and engraved "tresor" on her collar so she remembers her value. I understand her, believe in her and make her behave, to be her best self. She admires me, cheers me and submits to whatever it occurs to me to do to her.
Our love is the one that is not pink fluffy--it is the love of the possesor and the possessed.

This is our version of "love". It lies in the power exchange. She gave me the gift of herself. I value it and treat it with respect. Years ago, I had a hard time understanding slavery, of treating another person as a possession. Now I don't. I own the Hope Diamond of slaves.

< Message edited by MsMillgrove -- 6/25/2008 4:34:17 AM >

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RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/25/2008 4:34:55 AM

lovepuppy

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it's interesting to me that within this conversation, the word love is thrown around without being sliced and diced first. Love, like blast-radius and possible anal leakage means too much --is too varied, to fit nicely into a conversation with any sort of expected conclusion. You can't define love by a number...you can't really say 11.5 miligrams of love...you can say bunches of love...you can't ask for 3 yards of love..but you can get a heap of it. The slave-master dynamic though is more or less an absolute defined within each diferent relationship.

the only decent definition of love I've ever found to be useful is 'do you think more of the person you are in love with that you do about yourself'.... so if you are spending thirty hours building a suspension frame for your slave but only take 2 minutes to shower, well then maybe it's love, if you just drop a neck and wing into the gimp's cage as you are on your way to bed, wel then probably not.

For myself I like when I'm in love with the slave I'm with, I seem to do a better job with things and while that may violate the above mentioned definition and just be another way of obtaining self satisfaction it feels more natural to me, your milage may differ.

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RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/25/2008 6:32:06 AM

DominantJenny

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Could I have a non-romantic-love based relationship? Yep. Could it be fulfilling? Yep. Would it fulfill my personal need for a romantic-love-based relationship? Well, no. Duh. If I have that need (and I do), then I need another relationship to fulfill it.
Some people don't (apparently) want/need a romantic-love based relationship. If they were raised in modern Western society, I would probably be a tad concerned about whether they had some psychological/emotional issues that made this the case, as it seems that virtually all emotionally/psychologically healthy people in this type of society do want that sort of relationship. However, I am certainly open to the possibility that they just aren't wired that way. It could happen.
Some people don't want a romantic-love based relationship that is also a D/s or SM relationship. These people generally need more than one relationship to fulfill their needs, generally a non-romantic-love based D/s/SM relationship and a romantic-love-based vanilla relationship. This is particularly hard for monogamous people to understand. As I am not monogamous, I can easily understand it.
People come in practically infinite variety.
What matters is that everyone involved in any relationship is content, fulfilled, satisfied. (Even if they are satisfied by being unsatisfied. Human beings are complex creatures.)

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RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/25/2008 6:55:51 AM

leadership527

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Lovepuppy: Here's a cool definition of love I got from another Dom. "That condition in which the happiness of another person becomes essential to your own."

And, while I'm trotting out my way cool relationship definitions (*laughs*), this one is a great definition of a friend hot off of time magazine... "A friend is a person with whom you want to "catch up" no matter how long it's been since you last spoke, minutes or years"

And to everyone else, thanks for this discussion. I will definitely be chewing over this for days/weeks. I'm always fascinated when I get some insights into something truly different from my own way of thinking. I'm going to have to cop to the attitude that says "you can't build a relationship on anything other than love and expect it to go decades". This thread has given me some interesting viewpoints disagreeing with that attitude which means it's up for re-evaluation. Being more into love than sex myself, that thought has all the earmarks of a self-serving and provincial line of reasoning -- I need love, ergo everyone must. *sighs* don't you hate it when you find that sort of idiocy lying around in your own thoughts?

~Jeff, YAD
yet another dom
(*laughs* sorry, I couldn't resist. Yes, many of my random tag lines indicated some sort of estrangement from this community. To be fair, coming here both from the vanilla world and as as a person more interested in love than sex is definitly a stranger in a strange land sort of experience.)

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RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/25/2008 7:24:14 AM

KatyLied

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quote:

I'm going to have to cop to the attitude that says "you can't build a relationship on anything other than love and expect it to go decades". This thread has given me some interesting viewpoints disagreeing with that attitude which means it's up for re-evaluation

Love is wonderful. But it is certainly no garantee that a relationship will last decades, regardless of lifestyle choice. I think people should do what works for them and not have to defend their relationship. I was in a relationship that wasn't traditional, and I felt like I was always having to explain it to people who could not think beyond what works for them or even conceive that there are different types of relationships. I gave up trying to explain it. It was much easier that way.

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RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/25/2008 7:33:30 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

I need love, ergo everyone must. *sighs* don't you hate it when you find that sort of idiocy lying around in your own thoughts?

I find that the basis for most "idiocy" is when the reader and the writer use different definitions for the same word, in this case 'love'. All the definitions are correct but when communicating, especially in writing, the one true definition is as elusive as the one true way. You have to be careful regarding what word you use, and be sure that in the context used its meaning is clear.

Love conjures up romantic images of 'Romeo & Juliet' but is also used in phrases like; "I love chocolate" or "I love my pet hamster". Same meaning?

People have debated about the need for love in order to enjoy sex and/or a scene. I don't think that the 'Romeo & Juliet' reference is always in mind; sometimes its 'hamster love'. I'd say that at minimum for me to have any desire there doesn't have to be love, but there has to be emotions and an emotional connection with the participant. It is emotion that flavors the sauce; love is one, but there are is a wide range of spice to choose.

Ask if love is necessary and you'll get endless debate. Ask about emotions and you may come to realize that any disagreement about love was a matter of semantics.

"I love spanking!" Emotion-less? Does attaching a piece of leather to a fan and backing into it appeal to you, or do you require the emotional connection of another person. Even in that example, the act takes on an emotional context if your Dom/Master ordered you to do so. Sure that may come under some folks definition of 'love' but it doesn't have to be there to generate an emotional response.

BTW- I can say I "love" fuzzy pink handcuffs. I've given out a few as gag gifts over the years. They serve as a 'tell' if integrated into a Halloween costume, and I've gone up to a few people displaying them and asked "costume prop or lifestyle?". They also make for a nice decoration hung from a wall in a home dungeon. I would never use them, or any handcuff, in a scene; but, in context, I could say "I love them"; or as least have a positive emotion regarding them.

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RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/25/2008 8:30:34 AM

Maya2001

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quote:

So, this is an attempt to discuss D/s relationship dynamics that aren't emotion/love oriented. Why do so many people feel that such relationships are somehow deficient or inferior?

I believe this is because we are conditioned right from childhood to believe that love will bring happiness, contentment and forever after eg Cinderella, Snow White, Rapunzel, Lady and the Tramp etc, and especially books directed to women such as Harlequin Romance and that sexual involvement is tied to love

Yet we can have long term friendships with people we grow up with and find contentment and happiness when with them and yet not be in love with them based usually and care, respect and being supportive.. rarely with sexual involvement because of our conditioning and therefore we believe it would mean the relationship would have to change to one of love if sex becomes part of.

The hard part for most of us is crossing that barrier we have been conditioned to believe, that sex and service can be combined with friendship without being in love at a romantic level and still provide a great deal of happiness and fulfillment.

Several months ago that idea totally repelled me when I was asked to submit in a 24/7 living together TPE relationship I was still in the mindset that love is a requirement/need inorder to be able to do... but during this period also had maintained a friendship with another Dom based on common interests not D/s or sexual and after took it to D/s for a brief visit during which time the emotional/love bit did get in the way something we both ended up acknowledging and have since done some online D/s occasionally working on keeping it platonic sticking to D/s dynamics only, the next month another visit is planned and this time we will be attempting M/s a 24/7 TPE during the length of his stay with acceptance because of the situation(borders/distance/careers) that there is no room for love to be in the relationship and I feel quite comfortable with that right now...but as of right now I would still find myself mentally struggling to accept a 24/7 TPE living together agreement without love but maybe after the visit that viewpoint may shift more to seeing as possible knowing there still is respect and caring in place ... In some ways I can see how a relationship that starts this way and loves follows afterward can actually be stronger relationship because more focus is on the foundation of the dynamics and needs rather than sidestepping issues due to raw emotions and feelings that infatuation/passions brings into a relationship. Though I could also see a major emotionally painful erosion occuring if one partner goes into a relationship hoping love will develop from in time and the other does not want it in the relationship ever.

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RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/25/2008 9:18:57 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied
Love is wonderful. But it is certainly no garantee that a relationship will last decades, regardless of lifestyle choice. I think people should do what works for them and not have to defend their relationship. I was in a relationship that wasn't traditional, and I felt like I was always having to explain it to people who could not think beyond what works for them or even conceive that there are different types of relationships. I gave up trying to explain it. It was much easier that way.

I really like what you said here, Katy. I was in a 20 year marriage in which we both claimed to dearly love each other, and yet misery was abound. Then again we had different definitions of love. However, you are absolutely correct - love is no guarantee that a relationship will be solid and/or happy. I loved my husband. I would have done anything for him, and I did - anything except die emotionally. I left right before that happened. Love does not mean the relationship is healthy, or that those in the relationship know how to be healthy or are willing to pursue that. Love is a nice, wonderful feeling, but does not a relationship make. And for me, a relationship based on love is a relationship based on a house of cards. Without a more solid foundation, love, no matter how strong, is not the glue that holds it all together.

I came to my Master because I needed to submit to someone strong and powerful. He took me in because he enjoyed the way I submitted, and pushed me to see how much he could get from me (which I loved about him). We are Master and slave because that is what we want from each other. We built our relationship on the fundamental rules we agreed on for a Master/slave relationship. Love came later, and was icing on a delicious cake.

And yeah, I agree about having to explain a relationship. We have even seen that here on the boards a lot lately and it's disappointing.

Thanks for your words. I felt they were important to this discussion.

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RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/25/2008 9:25:49 AM

KatyLied

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Thank you for the kind comments. It means a lot to me.

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RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/25/2008 9:27:45 AM

ownedgirlie

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RE: Fuzzy Pink Handcuffs - 6/25/2008 9:27:53 AM

gypsygrl

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quote:

that sex and service can be combined with friendship without being in love at a romantic level and still provide a great deal of happiness and fulfillment.

This says alot. :)

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