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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 9:51:24 PM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

Under Your hypotheticals the South African Government while maintaining aparthied somehow allows blacks to have guns in which to overthrow aparthied...Then we have Tianaman Square where You would have us picture the young man staring down the tank with what ...a bazooka...would the world have been so moved if he had one...Personally the courage demonstrated by the one young man in that quintsential photograph, is Tianaman Square...put a gun in his hands and the message isn't as moving or telling ...


The courage demonstrated was indeed a stirring moment in history.  However, what became of that moment?  Did anything change?

How about another example.

When the Soviet army rolled into Afghanistan, the rebels that fought against them initially were using Martini Henry rifles and .303 enfields that were British Issue to the Indian Army.  The .303's were bolt action, and the Martini Henry's were single shot rifles.  Yet with weapons that had been obsolete since the first world war, these people fought against one of the most mechanized military forces in the world.

Are you saying that these men and boys attacking armoured convoys with these types of weapons did not make a statement?  What was the result?  The Soviet Union was forced to withdraw.

There was the Czech resistance to the Soviet invasion, which failed, but still, young men and women standing up to tanks with little more than hunting rifles and malatov cocktails also makes a statement.

Yes, the young man was couragous, however, if his act of defiance had spurred a general armed uprising against the communist regime, it is doubtful that China would still be communist.

Do you remember what the British were marching toward Lexington and Concord to do?  They had orders to seize every gun in the two towns.  The privately owned weapons in Boston had already been seized. 

Lexington and Concord were the two towns everyone remembers, but there were others, in all the colonies, the british were ordered to seize weapons.

The fact that those poorly trained militiamen stood fast against the best military force in the western world at the time is one of the greatest moments in American and World history.  It did not happen because those weapons were owned by the state, it happened because those weapons were owned by individuals.

The weapons that won the war of independence were brown bess muskets, kentucky long rifles, blue ridge rifles, Green mountain rifles and other locally manufactored rifles.  Every man that answered the call was pouring lead to make his own rounds because few of the weapons fired the same calibre. 

The only thing in common was flint and powder.


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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 9:51:43 PM   
Hanable


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From: BFE ohio
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wow... i skimed some of the comments but i have to say wow.. this is realy a hot topic.

personaly i agree with letting a person own a hand gun for self defence and such. banning guns of any kind only put the law abiding citizens at a disadvantage becuz the people you have to worry about having guns do not care if they are banned or not. true a lot of gun inguries or deaths r caused by people acting stupid and hurting themselves.. but with proper training i would hope that number would decrease drasticly.

on the other topic. i find it slightly annoying when some one who does not live in america and will not be harmed in any way, shape or form by what happenes in america starts bitching and ranting about a law or a case or whatever. im not saying i dont wanna hear ur opinions.. hell thats a freedom here.. i jsut dont wanna get in a fight about it when it has no effect on u one way or the other.

H >:)

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 9:52:45 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The NRA says they are now going to challange handgun laws in Chicago and San Francisco.

A major arguement in the gun control lobby was that gun ownership was NOT a constitutional right. They argued that the 2nd amendment only protects a state's right to assemble a militia. The Supreme Court decision today struck down that arguement and Scalia made it clear that the people do have an individual freedom to have a firearm in their homes. That shoots a gigantic hole in the gun control lobby's arguement.


Is there a handgun ban in those cities? If not,the NRA is fucked...

That the NRA is going to challange any gun law,any where,even reasonable ones,is a given.

That`s what they do.They are the prime lobbyists for arming criminals in the US and are wayyy off of the normal scale.

The NRA ,the extremists on the right-wing side of the debate,got their asses kicked today.

The court said cities like SF and C-town could keep the their laws,constitutionally.

Sleep tight and don`t keep it under the pillow.


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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 9:57:59 PM   
cyberdude611


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Yes...Chicago has a handgun ban in place since 1982. And so does San Francisco.

In fact, the NRA filed a lawsuit in Illinois minutes after the Supreme Court decision.

http://cbs2chicago.com/local/supreme.court.handguns.2.757471.html

quote:


CHICAGO (CBS) ― A U.S. Supreme Court decision has been the talk of the nation on Thursday. A handgun ban in Washington, D.C. has been struck down by the high court.

As expected, strong reaction has been pouring in on both sides of this emotional issue.

Gun control advocates like Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley were outraged, while gun rights activists have already sued to overturn a similar ban in Chicago.

The 5-4 ruling specifically struck down a ban on handguns in Washington, D.C. The court ruled that the District of Columbia's 32-year-old ban on handguns is incompatible with gun rights under the Second Amendment.

The decision goes further than even the Bush administration wanted, and leaves most gun laws intact, but could invalidate Chicago's.


< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 6/26/2008 10:00:00 PM >

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:01:09 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Have you read the ruling?


Read it and understood that there was no ignoring of the prefatory clause, but instead, a thorough and rational explanation, that debunked the tortured meanings that some people had ascribed to it.

Rest assured that anyone who tries to pass off the notion  that stare decisis means that the USSC has no right to review case law is in no position to lecture anyone on 'what it means'.

As far as the 'only applies to DC' notion , how exactly do you get that out of "The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home "???

As far as ammunition goes, the ruling also quite clearly says that any restrictions which make a weapon inoperable  for home defense are unconstitutional.....perhaps you have a magic gun that can defend people without bullets?

And ignoring the already posted etymology of the word 'arms' to mean anything from bullets on up, used to make war, (ala pretending that 'the people' didn't mean the people, and that militia mean the Army), still isn't going to do a thing to alter the reality.  You lost, all people have a right to armed self defense in their homes.

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:01:19 PM   
Thadius


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Actually they commented on the fact that they expected to see many of the laws brought before them in the near future.   Scalia was quite clear that they were only ruling on the case in front of them and that they were setting precidence with their position that the 2nd Amendment was an individual right.

The upcoming battles are definitely going to make for some good discussion. 

As a side note, Daley doesn't have a clue about what defending ones home is about, he lived on the same block as the 9th precinct police and firehouse, had an unmarked police car parked in front on the street and one in back in the alley, even before he became mayor of Chicago.

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:03:04 PM   
Owner59


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I hope the ban ends in those cities.

Is that it?As far as municipalities go?

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:06:27 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Have you read the ruling?


Read it and understood that there was no ignoring of the prefatory clause, but instead, a thorough and rational explanation, that debunked the tortured meanings that some people had ascribed to it.

Rest assured that anyone who tries to pass off the notion  that stare decisis means that the USSC has no right to review case law is in no position to lecture anyone on 'what it means'.

As far as the 'only applies to DC' notion , how exactly do you get that out of "The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home "???

By reading the entire decision including where he specifically states that the right isn't universal and that all sorts of infringements are allowed and by the clear statement that only the D.C. ban and not all handgun bans were affected by the ruling.

Maybe you missed the part where I said the ruling was internally contradictory?
Try reading it again:
quote:

Now I was never in favor of an absolute ban and thought D.C. was too restrictive but I have read lots of SCOTUS majority opinions, all the major ones of the 20th century as well as many others, and this is a particularly strange ruling. It is internally contradictory and poorly reasoned. Scalia apparently is of the opinion that equal protection doesn't apply to all constitutionally granted rights. He also went out of his way to say that the right to keep and bear arms can be infringed. He even listed a number of such infringements that he, and presumably the rest of the majority, view as acceptable. Ultimately this ruling does not settle the matter and seemingly wasn't meant to do so no matter how much you may wish it did.

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:14:38 PM   
cyberdude611


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The issue on the table at this point and with this case is not gun regulation but gun ownership...Scalia made it clear in the ruling that cities have the ability to use tools to combat gun violence. HOWEVER, he says that "one such tool could not be the absolute, total prohibition of handguns used for self-defense in the home."

The problem with Chicago's law? It calls for prohibition of handguns for self-defense in the home. So although Chicago city officials say the ruling doesn't effect them. A lot of legal experts say an absolute ban is very unlikely to survive in court. Chicago would have to change it's laws in some way to allow people to own a handgun in their homes. And that's something Mayor Daley has said he strongly opposes. So he's got a problem.

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:18:09 PM   
Alumbrado


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Cherry picking words from one section and pretending they apply somewhere else may work fine in your imagination... but not in the real world.  Nowhere did the ruling say that self defense was not a universal right, they said that gun possession could be subject to some limited restrictions outside of private ownership in the home... giving the examples of felons and the mentally ill being barred.

This is just more of your 'no showers in the Navy' pretzel logic.

Have fun with it.

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Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:22:23 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Cherry picking words from one section and pretending they apply somewhere else may work fine in your imagination... but not in the real world.  Nowhere did the ruling say that self defense was not a universal right, they said that gun possession could be subject to some limited restrictions outside of private ownership in the home... giving the examples of felons and the mentally ill being barred.

So some classes of people do not have the right to defend themselves in theri homes. And legislatures can define those classes. That isn't a right.

quote:

This is just more of your 'no showers in the Navy' pretzel logic.

What are you claiming I said this time? Link or retraction please

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/27/2008 4:00:16 AM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
And now you trot out more thoroughly discredited bits of agit prop about guns being turned on family members, and threaten a tidal wave of dead children?


Did you read my whole post, or did you knee-jerk after the first paragraph? 

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/27/2008 4:10:50 AM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Maybe one of the contributing reasons why they are not used more for home defense is because there is this insane theory that you must keep your guns locked away. Not only do they recommend you lock them away, they recommend you also keep a trigger lock on them and keep them unloaded and store the ammunition and the keys to your trigger lock and gun safe in seperate locations. So maybe more guns would be used for home defense if they were just a bit more accessible.


The law enforcement official who I heard interviewed said that unlocked, loaded guns kept in a home were rarely used for self defense and often end up hurting or killing someone in the home.  

quote:

  
Kids today find the gun in Mommy and Daddy's closet or nightstand drawer and they have never even seen one before...let alone been educated about it in any way. Now THAT is a recipe for disaster.


Yep, it sure is, which is why I like the idea of PSAs.

quote:

  
Gun bans don't work and all one has to do is look at the numbers.


I'm pretty sure that I didn't say anything that would have indicated that I support bans.

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Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/27/2008 4:15:25 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
And now you trot out more thoroughly discredited bits of agit prop about guns being turned on family members, and threaten a tidal wave of dead children?


Did you read my whole post, or did you knee-jerk after the first paragraph? 


Just at the parts that were untrue. Like the Kellerman hoax, and your earlier claim that 'the people' in the 2nd amendment only means the government of the states, not individuals. 

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/27/2008 4:25:27 AM >

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/27/2008 4:47:35 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Cherry picking words from one section and pretending they apply somewhere else may work fine in your imagination... but not in the real world.  Nowhere did the ruling say that self defense was not a universal right, they said that gun possession could be subject to some limited restrictions outside of private ownership in the home... giving the examples of felons and the mentally ill being barred.

So some classes of people do not have the right to defend themselves in theri homes. And legislatures can define those classes. That isn't a right.

quote:

This is just more of your 'no showers in the Navy' pretzel logic.

What are you claiming I said this time? Link or retraction please


Claiming?  That you got laughed out of the McCain/GI Bill thread where you implied someone was lying about being a veteran based on your assertion that there were no private showers in the Navy... memory going out on you?

If you want to believe all these fictions about the 2nd amendment only applying inside of DC, or that Georgia is part of Virginia, or the Navy howler,  feel free...
you can even dress them up with pretzel logic if you like.

I'll leave you with the thought that reality remains unchanged by your lack of belief in it.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/27/2008 4:57:27 AM >

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/27/2008 5:47:06 AM   
HandSolo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs


The law enforcement official who I heard interviewed said that unlocked, loaded guns kept in a home were rarely used for self defense and often end up hurting or killing someone in the home.



There are something like 700 accidental handgun deaths in the US (population 300 million) in a typical year. The statistics do not specify whether the guns are legally owned or not. The interviewee was either ignorant, lying, or using an unusual definition of "often."


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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/27/2008 6:30:32 AM   
mistoferin


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Of all of the accidental deaths in this country 39% of them are caused by motor vehicle accidents, falls cause 16% of them, medical "accidents" cause another 2.2% and gun accidents cause 0.6%....which is actually just slightly lower than the 0.7% caused by bicycles and tricycles (although I don't ever see people passionately arguing against all those tricycles and bicycles). It seems it's much safer to stay home (seated in a recliner on ground level), avoid doctors and shoot guns.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 6/27/2008 6:32:38 AM >


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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/27/2008 6:34:58 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Cherry picking words from one section and pretending they apply somewhere else may work fine in your imagination... but not in the real world.  Nowhere did the ruling say that self defense was not a universal right, they said that gun possession could be subject to some limited restrictions outside of private ownership in the home... giving the examples of felons and the mentally ill being barred.

So some classes of people do not have the right to defend themselves in theri homes. And legislatures can define those classes. That isn't a right.

quote:

This is just more of your 'no showers in the Navy' pretzel logic.

What are you claiming I said this time? Link or retraction please


Claiming?  That you got laughed out of the McCain/GI Bill thread where you implied someone was lying about being a veteran based on your assertion that there were no private showers in the Navy... memory going out on you?

If you want to believe all these fictions about the 2nd amendment only applying inside of DC, or that Georgia is part of Virginia, or the Navy howler,  feel free...
you can even dress them up with pretzel logic if you like.

I'll leave you with the thought that reality remains unchanged by your lack of belief in it.

So you admit to having lied in your original claim. Now go back and read that thread and stop trying to have me say things I didn't.

I also never said Georgia was in VA. I simply posted a link to show that peace officers in at least that state did require gun licenses.

You have a disturbing tendency to try and twist what someone said and then start calling people liars. You got caught in two lies right here and I expect your retractions and apology.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/27/2008 8:15:02 AM   
cloudboy


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There is little historical precedent to suggest that an established nation-state can overthrown by either armed groups or an armed populace to a positive end.

Your Czech "resistance" argument is a loser. All that post WWII cold war OP's shit was a failure --- and if anything only made the USSR more inclined to be a police state with an even tighter grip. This example seems about as à propos as citing the BAY OF PIGS as precedent.

The US revolutionary war involved colonial states. Ironically we've now picked up the fallen mantle of the British. Witness IRAQ and our occupation there. That highly armed populace might drive the US out of IRAQ, but it won't lead to liberty.

Afghanistan again is a colonial example of resistance against imperialism.

On the counter side to your armed populace arguments look at: Afghanistan now and Somalia. (Guns aren't helping much there.)

Look at the 1917 Russian Revolution (probably the closest example of an armed group of citizens overthrowing their own government.)

Look at Cambodia and Pol Pot.

Look at the Chinese revolution.

Attainment of national liberty is more about cultural-historical factors than it is about armed violence or resistance.



< Message edited by cloudboy -- 6/27/2008 8:18:29 AM >

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/27/2008 11:10:09 AM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

BTW kitten...

passports aside,

New Hampshire is one of the safest States in the Union. There are guns all over the place and you don't even need to register a hand gun in the "Live Free or Die" State. I bet you feel damn safe up there in New Hampshire don't ya?

Yet you would deny that same safe feeling to law abiding residence of Washington DC.

Strange.

Why would you deny the overwhelmingly law abiding population of Washington the same safe feeling of Lily White New Hampshire?

I guess you just don't trust those people.



FatDom, and right next door to N.H. is the most liberal state in the nation, Massachusetts who have overly restrictive gun laws and where the rate of house breaks is *Twenty Times* that of New Hampshire.
I lived in Hampton, N.H. right on the coast for 10 years.
I knew a few guys who had "collections" of over 200 guns.
In this state , South Carolina, you can cary a loaded gun in your vehicle, no "permit" needed.
That always amazed me, a "permit" to carry a gun!
Since when do you need a "permit" to vote or excercise any of your other rights?
Do I need to be "permitted" by a third party to excercise my rights?


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Profile   Post #: 200
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