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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:18:18 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Not only are you completely wrong, you're way out of order, mate.

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:21:32 AM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		Well the quick scan reading I did specifies that it is an individual right it spends a large amount of text clarifying this aspect that has always been left untouched by previous courts. We finally have a ruleing in the question of Individual vs Collective Right.

As such I can see the potential for most bans on handgun ownership and keeping them in the house being overturned.


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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:28:19 AM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		On the idea of if a resident alien having the right to speak on the idea being good or bad. Well the Court also has previously ruled on this as well. Resident aliens have the right to freedom of speach, religion, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, all those same constitutional rights that a citizen has, while on US soil.  Which BTW might be an unintended consequence of this ruling that they even have the right to keep and bear arms. Personally I agree with this ruleing as well.
If you can't defend your opinion with anything stronger than the Go Home argument you're standing on really weak ground.

kittensol and I have battled on many occassions over alot of things but the idea that she should shut up because she's not a citizen but rather a resident alien is totally crap. (assuming that the citizenship status remains resident alien)

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:30:19 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Well the quick scan reading I did specifies that it is an individual right it spends a large amount of text clarifying this aspect that has always been left untouched by previous courts. We finally have a ruleing in the question of Individual vs Collective Right.

As such I can see the potential for most bans on handgun ownership and keeping them in the house being overturned.

I'm sorry but I don't see it. If the right can be taken away by a judge then it can certainly be limited by a legislature. It even makes clear that what type of firearms are allowed is still under the purview of the legislatures.

I still can't find the majority opinion posted anywhere so I have no idea if the syllabus corresponds to the opinion but if it does as seems likely then this is simply the firast round of what will likely be decades of rulings on this.

The syllabus really is the silliest piece of writing on a Constitutional issue I've ever read come out of SCOTUS. Can anyone imagine a SCOTUS ruling to the effect that a state law prohibiting the exercise of free speech of convicted but released felons was constititutional? Or a state law designating the required religion of anyone a court deems mentally ill?

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:31:42 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

On the idea of if a resident alien having the right to speak on the idea being good or bad. Well the Court also has previously ruled on this as well. Resident aliens have the right to freedom of speach, religion, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, all those same constitutional rights that a citizen has, while on US soil.  Which BTW might be an unintended consequence of this ruling that they even have the right to keep and bear arms. Personally I agree with this ruleing as well.
If you can't defend your opinion with anything stronger than the Go Home argument you're standing on really weak ground.

kittensol and I have battled on many occassions over alot of things but the idea that she should shut up because she's not a citizen but rather a resident alien is totally crap. (assuming that the citizenship status remains resident alien)


Amen

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:35:20 AM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		DomKen they have done so for voting rights for decades.
Conviction of a felony removes some rights. hell it removes the right of freedom to move around for awhile.
I'm not saying it's genious level writting by any means. But to worry on the idea that it opns the door for rights to be removed by the findings of courts is closing the door many decades after the horse has left the barn.

< Message edited by Archer -- 6/26/2008 10:37:36 AM >

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:36:44 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

kittensol and I have battled on many occassions over alot of things but the idea that she should shut up because she's not a citizen but rather a resident alien is totally crap. (assuming that the citizenship status remains resident alien)



I appreciate your being able to leave personal disagreements aside in order to defend such a fundamental right, Archer. Thank you.

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:46:45 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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Status: offline 		I'm expecting the DC government to drag their feet on the ruling.  I'm also expecting them to try and manipulate the law.  Chicago and New York both have strict gun laws, and you can bet someone will challenge them now.  The ruling is only the beginning.  Now the lower courts are going to have to interrpret if rules in certain places are acceptable under the ruling. 

I am glad the Supreme Court finally looked at the 2nd Amendment and defined what it means.  Now there is no argument.  The government can't infringe on a citizen's right to own a firearm. 

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 6/26/2008 10:51:37 AM >

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:50:52 AM   
Daddystouch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

But it does make me think of a question. We've had a lot of gun rights threads on here and I have noticed that it is often the case that people who are not Americans are sometimes the most vocal. I'm not asking this to be snarky but what is it about our gun laws that make people who don't live here and never have to deal with them firsthand care so much about them?


Because I'd like to be able to defend myself and, if I have one someday, my family. And beause I think it's wrong for government to prohibit victimless crimes like owning or carrying a gun. And because gun control is a bad thing that causes more crime.

But I think you meant people outside the US who hate gun-rights?

< Message edited by Daddystouch -- 6/26/2008 10:52:00 AM >

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:53:20 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Well the quick scan reading I did specifies that it is an individual right it spends a large amount of text clarifying this aspect that has always been left untouched by previous courts. We finally have a ruleing in the question of Individual vs Collective Right.

As such I can see the potential for most bans on handgun ownership and keeping them in the house being overturned.

I'm sorry but I don't see it. If the right can be taken away by a judge then it can certainly be limited by a legislature. It even makes clear that what type of firearms are allowed is still under the purview of the legislatures.

I still can't find the majority opinion posted anywhere so I have no idea if the syllabus corresponds to the opinion but if it does as seems likely then this is simply the firast round of what will likely be decades of rulings on this.

The syllabus really is the silliest piece of writing on a Constitutional issue I've ever read come out of SCOTUS. Can anyone imagine a SCOTUS ruling to the effect that a state law prohibiting the exercise of free speech of convicted but released felons was constititutional? Or a state law designating the required religion of anyone a court deems mentally ill?

I agree that there seems to be alot of wiggle room here,  in that it leaves room for bans on specific models or types of handguns.  The upcoming litigation should be fun to watch.

The Mayor of DC, even made a remark today that had me raising my eyebrows.  "First, all firearms must be registered with the Metropolitan Police Department’s Firearms Registration Section before they may be lawfully possessed.  Second, automatic and semiautomatic handguns generally remain illegal and may not be registered. Third, the Supreme Court’s ruling is limited to handguns in the home and does not entitle anyone to carry firearms outside his or her own home. In addition, although the Court struck the safe storage provision on the ground that it was too broadly written, firearms at home should be kept either unloaded and disassembled or else locked except for use in self-defense in emergencies."

So the only handguns that the Mayor thinks this applies to is revolvers?  Also, the last part of his statement would seem to go against the entire spirit of the ruling (self defense).  I can see the conversation now "Please Mr. Invader, allow me to reassemble and load my weapon, so I can defend myself".


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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:55:49 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I'm expecting the DC government to drag their feet on the ruling.  I'm also expecting them to try and manipulate the law.  Chicago and New York both have strict gun laws, and you can bet someone will challenge them now.  The ruling is only the beginning.  Now the lower courts are going to have to interrpret if rules in certain places are acceptable under the ruling. 

I am glad the Supreme Court finally looked at the 2nd Amendment and defined what it means.  Now there is no argument.  The government can't infringe on a citizen's right to own a firearm. 


Mayor Daley (Chicago), has already started his pre-emptive strike against those lawsuits.  I saw a newsflash not to long ago saying that the NRA is already preparing to attack the Chicago, San Fran, and other laws. 

It should make for some fun spectating, no matter what side of this issue you fall on.

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:57:09 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

So the only handguns that the Mayor thinks this applies to is revolvers?  Also, the last part of his statement would seem to go against the entire spirit of the ruling (self defense).  I can see the conversation now "Please Mr. Invader, allow me to reassemble and load my weapon, so I can defend myself".


Yep, I saw him saying that this morning too.  It's like I said, they are going to drag their feet on it.  I am expecting challenges to gun laws all over the country.  You have to get permission from the local police precinct to own a gun in NYC, and they are notorious about being stingy with those permission permits.  The ruling is only the beginning. 

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 10:57:09 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

DomKen they have done so for voting rights for decades.
Conviction of a felony removes some rights. hell it removes the right of freedom to move around for awhile.
I'm not saying it's genious level writting by any means. But to worry on the idea that it opns the door for rights to be removed by the findings of courts is closing the door many decades after the horse has left the barn.

The thing is there is no constitutionally protected right to vote or to free movement. There has been constitutional arguments against imprisonment based on free assemby grounds but that didn't go anywhere. Voting rights have been enforced on equal protection grounds and so far felons have failed to get those laws over turned on that basis although I think it is only a matter of time.

There are limitations to protected rights being used to directly cause harm, shouting 'fire' in a theater is the classic example, but that's mostly an application of one person's rights ending at another person's nose.

This ruling on the OTOH specifies that this constitutionally protected individual right can be taken away entirely and permanently simply by judgement of a court. That is nonsense.

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 11:00:19 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Really uncalled for,downright rude as a matter of fact.Considering this is a Country of immigrants stupid to say the least


This is a country of immigrants who became citizens, immigrants who have applied for a visa, and illegal immigrants. For a NON citizen who is here at the largess of the U.S. State Dept to criticize the way our government is run, and be called on it by a legal U.S. citizen is hardly rude, nor is it uncalled for.

If this decision, that bears no consequences on her citizenship, upsets her so much, that she feels it's a tragedy, she should be more than happy to return to her gun free utopia, which she left in the first place, rather than stay in this country.

One should look in the mirror when calling another stupid.
Never called you stupid,did question the intelligence of Your comment.Whether or not the Lady in question has been naturalizes matters not  ,her right to her opinion is sacrosant,and being told to go home because You don't like her opinion IS stupid...now maybe You go use that mirror Yourself

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 11:03:59 AM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I am glad the Supreme Court finally looked at the 2nd Amendment and defined what it means.  Now there is no argument.  The government can't infringe on a citizen's right to own a firearm. 

That is not what the syllabus says. It specifically says a legislature can ban a class of people from owning firearms of any sort and that a criminal or civil judge can issue a ruling putting a person into that class.

I'm really hoping the majority opinion is clearer but after carefully reading the syllabus it is quite clear that the court created a new kind of right with this ruling and that that 'right' is not what most people will think of when they think about our constitutionally protected rights.

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 11:04:18 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		The courts have stolen so much power for themselves that it would seem wise to forget most everything else and vote for whichever presidential candidate is most inclined to nominate judges who will rule in favor of our constitutional rights.

Without our constitutional rights nothing else can possibly stand.


quote:

This ruling on the OTOH specifies that this constitutionally protected individual right can be taken away entirely and permanently simply by judgement of a court. That is nonsense.


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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 11:07:01 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The courts have stolen so much power for themselves that it would seem wise to forget most everything else and vote for whichever presidential candidate is most inclined to nominate judges who will rule in favor of our constitutional rights.

Without our constitutional rights nothing else can possibly stand.


quote:

This ruling on the OTOH specifies that this constitutionally protected individual right can be taken away entirely and permanently simply by judgement of a court. That is nonsense.


Did you just change affiliations there?

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 11:13:43 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		The Conservative gods-slash-judges are the ones who are so generously allowing us to hold on to the perception that we still have at least a small part of the original right to bear arms... for the time being.

That is, so long as we beg for a license for them, don't ever try to buy them, or transport them, etc. They ruled that we can keep them in our homes so long as we meet certain conditions, but that was about it.

quote:

Did you just change affiliations there?


< Message edited by Sanity -- 6/26/2008 11:18:49 AM >

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 11:22:21 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

Cops confiscate guns, sure. He didn't say they didn't. He said "criminals" meaning the collective.

DC is known for being the district of crime and for having one of the highest murder rates in the country. What do you think the criminals there use? Dead fish?


Criminals getting guns is a whole other issue.

One of course, that righties care little about.

If fact,right-wing NRA types are doing everything in their power to make sure crimminals get the latest and most powerful weapons possible.

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RE: Supreme Court strikes down handgun ban - 6/26/2008 11:27:13 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

Cops confiscate guns, sure. He didn't say they didn't. He said "criminals" meaning the collective.

DC is known for being the district of crime and for having one of the highest murder rates in the country. What do you think the criminals there use? Dead fish?


Criminals getting guns is a whole other issue.

One of course, that righties care little about.

If fact,right-wing NRA types are doing everything in their power to make sure crimminals get the latest and most powerful weapons possible.



Did this ban or the bans in Chicago, bring down the murder rates, or in anyway prevent criminals from acquiring firearms?  Simple answer, NO.  Just as any other prohibition, the people that choose to work outside of the law will get their hands on whatever they wish to get.  Prohibitions only affect those that choose to remain within the restraints of the law.

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