RE: These rats are responsible for the torture...

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farglebargle -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 7:16:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Come on FB ... get off mod 11's bad side! [:D] Ok, now, this is just too fucked up. I have FirmhandKY commenting about how he misses the immediacy of our correspondence. That aside... quote: Here is another quote I found that strikes a cord: *** Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself. Mark Twain *** Firm Just because they're idiots in Congress doesn't mean that they don't know that Torture is Bad, or that they're wrong to drag the scum who came up with the idea into the spotlight. Wasn't it Steve Allen who wrote about the power of Public Hating? It is, of course, the only 'even-close-to-legal-sanctions' the loyal bushies will ever see... And Marion Jones did a year in Federal Prison... There really are 2 sets of laws in "These United States". Those for the Loyal Bushies, and those for the rest of us.

DomAviator -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 10:04:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Well, let's contemplate this. Since we have ignored the Geneva Conventions and twisted the meaning of torture into what suits us, doesn't this open up our soldiers to torture by other governments if they happen to be captured? They already are... Everything taught at SERE is stuff that has ALREADY been done to our military personell. What is going on at Gitmo / Abu Graib / the so called "Black Sites" is straight out of the SERE class. The curriculum of te SERE class is set by what the enemy does to us... The problem with the Geneva Conventions is that nobody except us and Nazi Germany ever followed them. Japan certainly didnt - death march on bataan, burma road, Unit 731 etc... North Korea? Nope, very bad... Vietnam? Well ask McCain or Dieter Dengler about them. Iraq in 1991? Well Jeff Zahn was tortured on TV and each and its a little known fact that every POW, male or female, was sexually assaulted. Our people have ALWAYS been tortured, thats why we have SERE training. The only difference here is we said "no more Mr Nice Guy". The point being when our soldiers were tortured in the past we did not respond in kind. Which allowed our government to retain a moral high ground that gave us the oppurtunity to exert diplomatic and political pressure on those foreign governments that torture, both during and after the fact. Read McCain's account of his experiences and how the changing political climate in the U.S. affected how he was treated by his captors. If we can't be above that, or at least claim we are, then how can we possibly give any sort of protection to our own soldiers from it? Fuck the moral high ground. I dont want the moral high ground I want a body count and bomb damage assessments. I want our enemies to be so fucking terrified to torture one of our men that they dont dare do it because doing so will unleash the wrath of God. The moral high ground doesnt protect our men, punishing unacceptable behavior by creating an unacceptable body count does. Do you think it is accidental that the night they aired the torture of Jeff Zahn on Iraqi TV that the first President Bush, a Naval Aviator himself, authorized an alpha strike (everyhing that flies) at "targets of opportunity"??? Essentially we were pissed off, loaded to the balls, and went up for payback and by the time the sun rose there were thousands of civilians dead, not a working TV station left in Iraq and only 4% of the country had electric power... (Guess there wont be any more telecasts of the American Air Pirate huh?) Do you think its an accident that the Air Force put a bunker buster into a civilian air raid shelter or ya think maybe they were avenging their Navy brother??? We bombed dams, we bombed water supplies, we bombed waste water treatment plants so there would be pestilence and disease, we even bombed supermarkets so the fuckers wouldnt have food to eat. War comes when diplomacy fails, war is the continuation of politics by other means. McCains treatment improved when we had enough and we started the unrestricted bombing of military and civilian targets in North Vietnam. Thats when they cut back on the bullshit against our POW's when the bombs started falling on Hanoi instead of on three trees at the intersection of a goat path. Thats when they knew we were pissed off and done playing games with them. The way we can provide protection to our men is to be such a fearsome force that Satan himself is afraid to piss us off. As far as I am concerned, Lt Calley should have been given the medal of honor, been promoted to 0-6 and been put in command of the Special Forces. The only way to combat force and brutality is with greater force and brutality. Roosevelt said "Speak softly and carry a big stick" and our enemies should know that we will use that stick to bash their skulls in if they so much as look at us crosseyed. That is how you protect our men. Holding the moral high ground has long history of not working.... As far back as WW2, our men have been subjected to everything up to and including vivisection in Unit 731. We sat back and said "no come on boys thats not nice we dont like that. Play nice we wouldnt do that to you. Remember the Golden Rule." and they laughed at us and kept right at it. Bush tried a new approach and I applaud it. I say get the embedded journalists out, so that we can really start tuning up those who may be harboring insurgents.

popeye1250 -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 10:11:04 AM)
I'll Second that.

kittinSol -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 10:31:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol No, didn't see it, I don't get British telly. Which channel was it on? It's not British it's HBO. "Conspiracy" is the title. Well, colouredin is in England and she just confirmed she watched it on the BBC, so I'm not sure you're referring to the same program as she did.

FirmhandKY -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 12:20:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Come on FB ... get off mod 11's bad side! [:D] Ok, now, this is just too fucked up. I have FirmhandKY commenting about how he misses the immediacy of our correspondence. That aside... [:D] It seems like you weren't the only one who found the statement objectionable. Sorry, FB. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY There really are 2 sets of laws in "These United States". Those for the Loyal Bushies, and those for the rest of us. Wait ... I thought it was "laws for the rich, and laws for the rest of us". Or was it "laws for the Clinton's, and laws for the rest of us". Or was it "laws for the celebrities, and laws for the rest of us". Or was it "laws for the faithful, and laws for the rest of us". Or was it "laws for the blacks, and laws for the rest of us". Or was it "laws for the Jews, and laws for the rest of us". Or was it "laws for the politically correct, and laws for the rest of us". Or do you even get my point? You original links to the politically-motivated inquisition by Congress point out nothing about "the laws for Bushie's and the laws for the rest of us." What they point out is the incompetence, lack of intelligence, and bankrupt morality of the questioners. Which, in the case of the links you provided, happened to be Democratic Congressmen. Instead of railing against the preceived cabal of "Bushie's" what you should be railing against is the political system that brings such people into public office. Might I recommend that while the US system is flawed, the basic concept is good (the Constitution), but many of the changes since it's inception have been less than conducive for our continued freedoms. And ... after all ... is that one of your main points, whenever you post? By constantly going after the "Bushies" (or whatever group happens to be in power), aren't you distracted from the real areas and actions that might better serve your stated overarching desires? Piss your time and energy on the "political group of the day", while letting the system that brings them to power go un-commented on seems ... less than helpful, in the long run. Firm

jlf1961 -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 12:58:34 PM)
First of all, even if the United States did not torture prisoners, it would not protect our servicemen from being tortured if captured, especially in countries where they torture their own citizens. If you believe otherwise, then you are obviously not seeing the real world, so take off the rose colored glasses. I will suggest you research what happened in the following places, Melmedy, Bataan, Wake Island, The Hanoi Hilton. Perhaps you would like it if the prisoners of war were given more rights as the victims of war, kinda like the way our court system works, the victims of crime have less rights than the criminals.

Termyn8or -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 1:03:12 PM)
"I want our enemies to be so fucking terrified to torture one of our men that they dont dare do it because doing so will unleash the wrath of God. " True colors, you think we are the hand of God ? Well if we are he is indeed a vengeful and wrathful God as warned about in the Bible. Go sit with the children and Jesus, and instead of like the rest of us, taking your punishment like a Man, you can whine about it to people who don't posess half your intelligence. We are the hand of God ? Have you ever read any of the Bible at all, or did preachers do it for you ? Yes, we are all fucked up and the world is OK, if you really believe that, the time is running out on that property in Belin. Better hurry. T

DomAviator -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 2:03:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "I want our enemies to be so fucking terrified to torture one of our men that they dont dare do it because doing so will unleash the wrath of God. " True colors, you think we are the hand of God ? Well if we are he is indeed a vengeful and wrathful God as warned about in the Bible. Go sit with the children and Jesus, and instead of like the rest of us, taking your punishment like a Man, you can whine about it to people who don't posess half your intelligence. We are the hand of God ? Have you ever read any of the Bible at all, or did preachers do it for you ? Yes, we are all fucked up and the world is OK, if you really believe that, the time is running out on that property in Belin. Better hurry. T Term - First of all Im agnostic but why dont you take a look at these two patches and then you tell me who I was the instrument of... [:D] http://members.aol.com/A6E/akron196.jpg and http://members.aol.com/A6E/akron145.jpg The first patch is "Main Battery" and the second is "The Swordsmen" - Our motto was "Live By The Sword. Die By The Swordsmen" God himself isnt vengeful or wrathful, but we sure as hell were and we made damn sure that anyone who needed to go to hell got there before the sun came up - because The Swordsmen Own The Night!

jlf1961 -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 2:55:30 PM)
For those who may not understand the meaning, in military terms. In military jargon, the "wrath of god" simply means,. "Give your soul to god because when we finish with you, you will not have an ass, or anything else." It does not mean that we, as military personel, feel that we are god's instrument on this planet. However, as creations of god, he made us into EXACTLY what he intended us to be. To some, god gives the gift of 'the word' meaning he makes them preachers etc, to others, he gives the gift of healing hands, still others he will make scholars. However, some of us, god gives us skills that are only suited for the military. You cannot take the average joe and turn him into a perfect soldier, contrary to what some may wish to believe. You cannot take the average pilot and turn him into the perfect military aviator. Each of those professions require some sort of intuition, that sixth sense that allows us to survive in the environment we are best suited to fight in. In that respect, we can be called instruments of god, for he gave us those skills. He also gave us the wisdom to know when a target is worthy of attack, and when it is not. I doubt very seriously if DomAviator would attack a completely unarmed column of refugees fleeing a warzone, just like I know he would not attack a completely unarmed hospital that is clearly marked with the red cross or red crescent, not becuase orders prevent it, but becuase he has some belief that to do so would make him no greater than those who would massacre the wounded and refugees. The military does give any person the chance to explain his or her actions if they do not engage a target. Granted, they had better have the evidence to back up their decision. Just like a 'target of oppurtunity' had better be justified and a legal target under the rules of engagement. Each correct judgement call a military perosn makes earns him or her, one more judgement call, the first wrong one will end his or her career, and could possibly land them in prison. Other than that, we, who have served have to answer for our actions in due time, either here or on the day of judgement. As for who owns the night, that is a matter of perspective, DA. The swordsmen may have owned the night skies, but who owned the ground in that darkness, hmmmm?

FirmhandKY -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 3:58:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 As for who owns the night, that is a matter of perspective, DA. The swordsmen may have owned the night skies, but who owned the ground in that darkness, hmmmm? The US Army Rangers. Firm

Thadius -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 4:03:59 PM)
Is this where I nominate Marine Recon or the Seals? [;)]

Alumbrado -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 4:29:45 PM)
Tssssk, tsssk, tssssk.... I can't believe you guys don't know that famous line... It was "They say that Charlie owns the night, but dat ain' so....because Boudreaux owns the night".

farglebargle -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 4:35:52 PM)
quote: The moral high ground doesnt protect our men But it does protect our souls. Evil is as Evil does.

Owner59 -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 4:46:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator Fuck the moral high ground. I dont want the moral high ground I want a body count and bomb damage assessments. Yup,... Neo-cons got us in a race to the bottom. Pretty soon,`morally,we`ll be on the same level as the soviets. Great...

farglebargle -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 4:50:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: Ok, now, this is just too fucked up. I have FirmhandKY commenting about how he misses the immediacy of our correspondence. That aside... [:D] It seems like you weren't the only one who found the statement objectionable. Sorry, FB. You misunderstand. I'm not objecting or offended by the statement at all. In fact, I took it as a compliment, and was just commenting on its unexpected source. quote: quote: There really are 2 sets of laws in "These United States". Those for the Loyal Bushies, and those for the rest of us. Wait ... I thought it was "laws for the rich, and laws for the rest of us". Or was it "laws for the Clinton's, and laws for the rest of us". Wasn't Clinton impeached for a trivial offense? quote: Or was it "laws for the celebrities, and laws for the rest of us". Martha Stewart did a year for fibbing about something which, in itself wasn't a criminal act. The FIB to a Fed WHILE NOT UNDER OATH got her sent to prison -- so, no. quote: Or was it "laws for the faithful, and laws for the rest of us". Only if they're Evangelical kooks. Then they get hired into the DOJ. quote: Or was it "laws for the blacks, and laws for the rest of us". To the "Loyal Bushies", we're all just Nigras -- except see below... quote: Or was it "laws for the Jews, and laws for the rest of us". To the "Loyal Bushie", the Jew is lower than the Nigras. See, to the "Loyal Bushie", Nigras is ANIMALS. They can't help themselves... But Jews is the Devil. Don't blame me. That's what the Loyal Bushies espouse. I'm a Jew, myself, and it's nice to know the Bush Grandkids don't fall very from from their Nazi Loving Grandparents. At least they're upfront about their attitudes. quote: Or was it "laws for the politically correct, and laws for the rest of us". Or do you even get my point? Not really. Can you provide some EXAMPLES to support your counter-argument? It seems like everything you brought up actually supports the claim that the Loyal Bushies have their own Private Law. quote: You original links to the politically-motivated inquisition by Congress point out nothing about "the laws for Bushie's and the laws for the rest of us." What they point out is the incompetence, lack of intelligence, and bankrupt morality of the questioners. Really? I'd say that providing the moral foundation permitting Torture to occur is as bad as torture. I examined that in more detail earlier, and expect there's a response pending... quote: Might I recommend that while the US system is flawed, the basic concept is good (the Constitution), but many of the changes since it's inception have been less than conducive for our continued freedoms. How do you remedy the simple flaw, that the Constitution simply isn't obeyed by Loyal Bushies, and the DOJ which should be laying out prosecutions for those violations has had "The Few Good Men" unlawfully fired, and "Loyal Bushies" hand picked for their political reliability and religious fundamentalism hired into those positions? The Loyal Bushies have brought this flaw to the forefront. Now, I'd say the solution is to simply enforce the law equally for everyone. Think of Scooter Libby. *A JURY CONVICTED HIM OF CRIMES AND HE WAS SENTENCED IN ACCORDANCE WITH FEDERAL SENTENCING GUIDELINES* Didn't see a fucking day in jail. Martha Stewart went to jail when she got convicted. And the B.S. she was convicted of was to me much worse than Libby's crime. So Martha Stewart is more of a Man than these Loyal Bushies. Wow... Just Wow...

farglebargle -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 4:53:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator Fuck the moral high ground. I dont want the moral high ground I want a body count and bomb damage assessments. Yup,... Neo-cons got us in a race to the bottom. Pretty soon,`morally,we`ll be on the same level as the soviets. Great... We're ALREADY at the same level as the Nazi, when the Government his having lackeys say that Torturing Prisoners is A-OK, and then having the troops carry out orders based on that lie. Torture is wrong. If you simply feel the need to torture a prisoner, then go ahead and do what you feel necessary to get the job done, and THEN GO DO YOUR PRISON TIME FOR CHOOSING TO BREAK THE LAW. "Just doing my job" got Nazis hung at Nuremburg, to prove the point that it wasn't a good answer. I hope we can stop this before the Loyal Bushies start 'sending people East'.

farglebargle -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 4:58:15 PM)
quote: First of all, even if the United States did not torture prisoners, it would not protect our servicemen from being tortured if captured, especially in countries where they torture their own citizens. That's never been the point. The point is: You can't COMPLAIN about your troops being tortured when taken prisoner, when you torture prisoners yourself. So... If you're going to go this route, you gotta shut up about how bad your troops are treated. ACCEPTING your troops being tortured is the price you pay when you choose to torture. That's all. Oh, and if, in the heat of the moment you feel that someone needs to be tortured, if you got any HONOR or sense of DUTY then wouldn't you turn yourself in for prosecution of the crime you chose to commit? Well, if you weren't the kind of coward who tortures a prisoner tied to a chair -- that is...

FirmhandKY -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 5:02:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator Fuck the moral high ground. I dont want the moral high ground I want a body count and bomb damage assessments. Yup,... Neo-cons got us in a race to the bottom. Pretty soon,`morally,we`ll be on the same level as the soviets. Great... Failure to acknowledge, understand and correctly use the concepts and feeling such as DA has expressed will lead to a single conclusion: The quiet destruction of the US. Firm

Owner59 -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 5:09:18 PM)
Can any of the pro-torture types here, explain why the military doesn`t want torture to be legal/acceptable? Can any of you explain why the military wants to keep the Geneva convention? Shouldn`t the military,the guys who actually do the fighting and dying,have a say in this? http://www.hollywood.com/news/US_Army_Invites_Sutherland_to_Give_Anti_Torture_Speech/3662740 http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/3799 http://www.24headquarters.com/2007/02/26/kiefer-sutherland-to-give-anti-torture-talk-at-west-point/ Why did West Point Military Academy have Kiefer Sutherland,the very symbol of torture as Jack Bauer,speak there against the use of torture. Shouldn`t we let the guys who`s necks and testicles are literally on the line, decide on whether to abandon Geneva?

farglebargle -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 5:11:11 PM)
quote: Failure to acknowledge, understand and correctly use the concepts and feeling such as DA has expressed will lead to a single conclusion: The quiet destruction of the US. Since you're torturing prisoners, I'd say you're in denial that the US you're 'trying to protect' even EXISTS anymore.

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