RE: These rats are responsible for the torture...

RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 5:22:24 PM)
Well, technically it is not the average grunt on the ground doing the interogating. Most interogation is conducted by the Intel (aka SPOOKS) guys who tell the guards to leave the room and go have a gallon of coffee. It is also the Intel guys who give any and all orders pertaining to the treatment of prisoners. Now granted, following orders that are illegal under the UCMJ can get you in a lot of hot water, not following orders from some guy who has no rank on his uniform and colonels refer to as SIR, can also land you in a lot of hot water. Now, while the Intel guys gather intelligence that just might save the life of some grunt humping a ruck in indian country, I doubt very seriously if anyone is going to step up and say, "I am sorry, but that treatment of the prisoners is illegal." Personally, if I am on the ground in Indian country, I dont give a rat's ass how the intel was gained, as long as it is accurate and going to keep me from ending up in a body bag. And I am sure that DA and any flyboys flying combat sorties over the same hostile ground would not give a rat's ass where the intel came from that detailed anti air assets in a target area. For those who really need a clarification on anti air assets, I give you the adage, "Thou shalt maintain thy airspeed and the intrigity of thy aircraft lest the ground come up and smite thee or thee is forced to eject and find thyself in the hands of those who wish to do thee harm, at which point, thy ass is grass and I shalt not be able to haul your balls out of the ringer." anonymous combat flight instructor.

farglebargle -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 5:24:31 PM)
Dude, turns out the FBI guys sent to observe needed to be pulled out because of the clearly criminal acts they were witness to...

DomAviator -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 5:27:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Can any of the pro-torture types here, explain why the military doesn`t want torture to be legal/acceptable? Why did West Point Military Academy have Kiefer Sutherland,the very symbol of torture as Jack Bauer,speak there against the use of torture. LOL Two words - WINDOW DRESSING. Gee they invited Jack Bauer to tell a bunch of cadets that its wrong. However they operate this place : https://www.benning.army.mil/whinsec/index.asp the newly renamed "School of the Americas" . Google them sometime and see what they do.... http://www.faso.navy.mil/sere.html and this place... http://www.training.sfahq.com/survival_training.htm Take a look at that one and see if the photos remind you of anyplace [:D] Do a google search and find the link between SERE and Abu Graib.. Yes, they had jack bauer say no... Then they have the advanced "how to" course.... [:D]

Owner59 -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 5:33:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator Fuck the moral high ground. I dont want the moral high ground I want a body count and bomb damage assessments. Yup,... Neo-cons got us in a race to the bottom. Pretty soon,`morally,we`ll be on the same level as the soviets. Great... Failure to acknowledge, understand and correctly use the concepts and feeling such as DA has expressed will lead to a single conclusion: The quiet destruction of the US. Firm Sure, doom and gloom,if we don`t torture people.... Problem is with legalizing it,is it goes from torturing a hand full is bin-laden`s men in Guantanamo,...... to torturing an Iraqi cab-driver for being in the wrong place at the wrong time in Mosel.Or any slob who got caught up in the early dragnets. Great PR ,btw.... You make it legal in any form,and some ass will drive a truck through the loophole and give us more Abu-Ghraibs. As Ron Paul eloquently stated,we can fight the war on terror and keep our laws and dignity intact. We can fight them while preserving 200 plus plus years of jurist prudence and civil progress. We can keep the moral high ground and need to,if we`re going to keep our friends in the world, in the fight against terror. I truely doubt that you pro-torture guys want legal torture, to prevent attacks. You guys just want to torture,period. All this and that about the good reasons and excuses, is a cover. You guys just want to punish someone.And any guy with an Arab sounding name will do....

jlf1961 -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 6:28:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Dude, turns out the FBI guys sent to observe needed to be pulled out because of the clearly criminal acts they were witness to... If this is the case, and the FBI has the legal authority to invistigate, question and detain military personnel on a military reservation, of which, Gitmo is clearly a military reservation, then, WHY THE HELL DIDNT THEY MAKE ANY ARRESTS AT THE TIME THEY OBSERVED SAID ILLEGAL ACTS? It would have been their sworn duty to do so, immediatly and without reservation.

jlf1961 -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 6:53:06 PM)
quote: You make it legal in any form,and some ass will drive a truck through the loophole and give us more Abu-Ghraibs. Legal or not, is going to happen. quote: As Ron Paul eloquently stated,we can fight the war on terror and keep our laws and dignity intact. Uh, one question, what about the simple fact the US Government ignores its own laws when it comes to certain minority American citizens? quote: We can fight them while preserving 200 plus plus years of jurist prudence and civil progress. Nice statement, even if it is blatantly false. The United States supreme court declared the Indian relocation that led to the trail of tears unconstitutional, President Jackson ordered it to be carried out, in direct violation of the Supreme Court ruling. The United States Supreme Court still refuses to hear any case pertaining to the 500+ treaties between the US Government and the Native American nations, and broke by the US Government. This is in direct contradiction to a Supreme Court Ruling that made it clear that the government can be sued, and held accountable for any agreement between the government of the United States and any other party entering said agreement in good faith. quote: We can keep the moral high ground and need to,if we`re going to keep our friends in the world, in the fight against terror. Your so-called moral high ground includes the executive order to eliminate threats to the United States, (admitted to by Former President Clinton) orders to attack targets in response to terrorist attacks without the declaration of war, which in view of international law is an act of war, period. quote: I truely doubt that you pro-torture guys want legal torture, to prevent attacks. I personally dont care what action is taken if it prevents terrorist attacks on citizens of the United States, be it wire taps, satellite eavesdropping, tarot cards, crystal ball reading etc. quote: You guys just want to torture,period. Does not some of the aspects of the BDSM lifestyle fall under the definition of torture? quote: All this and that about the good reasons and excuses, is a cover. Actually, I am merely and repeatedly pointing out that it has gone on in the past, probably from the first day of the existence of the United States and will continue long after we are gone, unless of course someone actually comes up with a workable world peace. quote: You guys just want to punish someone.And any guy with an Arab sounding name will do.... Actually, considering I am 1/4 native american, someone with the name Grant, Sheriden, Sherman, Cooke, and a few others, well, as long as they were direct descendants of the Generals of those names and the one president, all of whom declared the only good Indian is a dead Indian. But then I am also Scot/Irish, and as such am prone to holding grudges for an obscenely long time.

FirmhandKY -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 7:09:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Sure, doom and gloom,if we don`t torture people.... Problem is with legalizing it,is it goes from torturing a hand full is bin-laden`s men in Guantanamo,...... You totally misunderstand my point. I'm not talking about torture at all. I'm talking about the martial spirit. Open your mind a bit wider, Owner. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 7:13:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: Ok, now, this is just too fucked up. I have FirmhandKY commenting about how he misses the immediacy of our correspondence. That aside... [:D] It seems like you weren't the only one who found the statement objectionable. Sorry, FB. You misunderstand. I'm not objecting or offended by the statement at all. In fact, I took it as a compliment, and was just commenting on its unexpected source. quote: quote: There really are 2 sets of laws in "These United States". Those for the Loyal Bushies, and those for the rest of us. Wait ... I thought it was "laws for the rich, and laws for the rest of us". Or was it "laws for the Clinton's, and laws for the rest of us". Wasn't Clinton impeached for a trivial offense? quote: Or was it "laws for the celebrities, and laws for the rest of us". Martha Stewart did a year for fibbing about something which, in itself wasn't a criminal act. The FIB to a Fed WHILE NOT UNDER OATH got her sent to prison -- so, no. quote: Or was it "laws for the faithful, and laws for the rest of us". Only if they're Evangelical kooks. Then they get hired into the DOJ. quote: Or was it "laws for the blacks, and laws for the rest of us". To the "Loyal Bushies", we're all just Nigras -- except see below... quote: Or was it "laws for the Jews, and laws for the rest of us". To the "Loyal Bushie", the Jew is lower than the Nigras. See, to the "Loyal Bushie", Nigras is ANIMALS. They can't help themselves... But Jews is the Devil. Don't blame me. That's what the Loyal Bushies espouse. I'm a Jew, myself, and it's nice to know the Bush Grandkids don't fall very from from their Nazi Loving Grandparents. At least they're upfront about their attitudes. quote: Or was it "laws for the politically correct, and laws for the rest of us". Or do you even get my point? Not really. Can you provide some EXAMPLES to support your counter-argument? It seems like everything you brought up actually supports the claim that the Loyal Bushies have their own Private Law. quote: You original links to the politically-motivated inquisition by Congress point out nothing about "the laws for Bushie's and the laws for the rest of us." What they point out is the incompetence, lack of intelligence, and bankrupt morality of the questioners. Really? I'd say that providing the moral foundation permitting Torture to occur is as bad as torture. I examined that in more detail earlier, and expect there's a response pending... quote: Might I recommend that while the US system is flawed, the basic concept is good (the Constitution), but many of the changes since it's inception have been less than conducive for our continued freedoms. How do you remedy the simple flaw, that the Constitution simply isn't obeyed by Loyal Bushies, and the DOJ which should be laying out prosecutions for those violations has had "The Few Good Men" unlawfully fired, and "Loyal Bushies" hand picked for their political reliability and religious fundamentalism hired into those positions? The Loyal Bushies have brought this flaw to the forefront. Now, I'd say the solution is to simply enforce the law equally for everyone. Think of Scooter Libby. *A JURY CONVICTED HIM OF CRIMES AND HE WAS SENTENCED IN ACCORDANCE WITH FEDERAL SENTENCING GUIDELINES* Didn't see a fucking day in jail. Martha Stewart went to jail when she got convicted. And the B.S. she was convicted of was to me much worse than Libby's crime. So Martha Stewart is more of a Man than these Loyal Bushies. Wow... Just Wow... Wow ... Just Wow is right. Your inability to see beyond your own straight jacket of ideology doesn't even allow you to see when someone is agreeing with you. You've done it twice now, with me, in this very thread. I'm going to return you to my "skim-don't-read" category of posters, now Firm

farglebargle -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 7:51:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Dude, turns out the FBI guys sent to observe needed to be pulled out because of the clearly criminal acts they were witness to... If this is the case, and the FBI has the legal authority to invistigate, question and detain military personnel on a military reservation, of which, Gitmo is clearly a military reservation, then, WHY THE HELL DIDNT THEY MAKE ANY ARRESTS AT THE TIME THEY OBSERVED SAID ILLEGAL ACTS? It would have been their sworn duty to do so, immediatly and without reservation. Yeah, it's funny that way. Two sets of laws.. One for the Loyal Bushies, where the FBI goes back and writes a memo and doesn't get any invites, and another for all the rest of us -------. Hey, they had this memo from Yoo and Addington saying it was OK to do it, so it's all ok, right?

farglebargle -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/28/2008 7:52:54 PM)
Answer this first. quote: How do you remedy the simple flaw, that the Constitution simply isn't obeyed by Loyal Bushies, and the DOJ which should be laying out prosecutions for those violations has had "The Few Good Men" unlawfully fired, and "Loyal Bushies" hand picked for their political reliability and religious fundamentalism hired into those positions?

DomAviator -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/29/2008 4:19:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: First of all, even if the United States did not torture prisoners, it would not protect our servicemen from being tortured if captured, especially in countries where they torture their own citizens. That's never been the point. The point is: You can't COMPLAIN about your troops being tortured when taken prisoner, when you torture prisoners yourself. So... If you're going to go this route, you gotta shut up about how bad your troops are treated. ACCEPTING your troops being tortured is the price you pay when you choose to torture. That's all. Oh, and if, in the heat of the moment you feel that someone needs to be tortured, if you got any HONOR or sense of DUTY then wouldn't you turn yourself in for prosecution of the crime you chose to commit? Well, if you weren't the kind of coward who tortures a prisoner tied to a chair -- that is... Sure we can still complain - just like they complain and whine and bitch and carry on. They complain plenty, even though they cut heads off on al jazeera. No need to stop complaining, but its time to have a little payback and to take the gloves off and get nasty.... We're finally doing it., We accepted long ago that our people were being tortured, thats why we opened up a school to teach them resistance to it. Hence SERE - Survival Evasion RESISTANCE and Escape. As for turning our selves in - nawwwwwww, just make sure nobody tells the tale. You think the idiots from Abu Graib went to prison for torture? They went to prison for embarassing the army. There are plenty of boots in the background of those pictures. Boots on the feet of spooks, (intel guys) , CIA, FBI, etc who were smart enough to stay out of the pictures and who were calling the shots. Notice no officers were convicted? No intel people? No special operations people? Just the band of morons who let the cat out of the bag..... PS - CLINTON STARTED THE EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION PROGRAM. CLINTON, NOT BUSH. So the torture started as a democrat thing under Comrade Clinton. :D

farglebargle -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/29/2008 5:32:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator As for turning our selves in - nawwwwwww, just make sure nobody tells the tale. Fidelity to one's oaths is the hallmark of Personal Honor, isn't it? Do you believe you possess any measure of Personal Honor, given your apparent contempt for your oath to the Constitution and Laws of the United States?

DomAviator -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/29/2008 12:00:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator As for turning our selves in - nawwwwwww, just make sure nobody tells the tale. Fidelity to one's oaths is the hallmark of Personal Honor, isn't it? Do you believe you possess any measure of Personal Honor, given your apparent contempt for your oath to the Constitution and Laws of the United States? The oath that I took said: I, (state your full name), do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. That oath says NOTHING about coddling terrorist filth, treating them nicely, obeying the Geneva Conventions, or the UN, or the sensitivities of liberals, any other such dribble.... The PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES said its ok and thats good enough for me. Doing what he said to do is "well and faithfully discharging the duties of my office". If the President of the United states said to load up with nukes and to kill every man, woman, child, and camel in Iraq I would salute the old man, roar off into the night sky and perform my assigned mission with glee. My job was flying an airplane and blowing shit up, not interrogating people - however the use of "agressive interrogation techniques" was authorized by the President, the Attorney General, the Secretary of Defense, and the Directorate of Central Intelligence. Therefore, those who do follow those instructions are "well and faithfully discharging the duties of the office" and they are "Defending the Constitution against all enemies". A military persons job is to OBEY. I dont want free thinkers, I dont want questions of conscience.... It wasnt my job to decide if what we were doing was morally right, or if the targets were picked properly, or if the strike was the best way to solve the issue at hand. My job was to get in that fucking aircraft they assigned, take it where they told me to go, and drop what they told me to drip on who they told me to. I knew what to do, I knew how to do it, they told me when and where, and why is above my fucking paygrade and hence not my problem. And before you give me the bullshit about Nuremberg, only the losers ever face War Crimes Tribunals. If Hitler would have won, Patton would have been tried and Geuhring would have been a war hero getting ticker tape parades. There are no points for second place, so if you dont want to face a war crimes tribunal - MAKE SURE YOU WIN! Whatever that takes, just WIN at all costs.

Owner59 -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/29/2008 12:12:35 PM)
Just because a dope or two cut the head off of someone w/ a handsaw,doesn`t mean we get to abandon human rights or the law. That kind of thing has been happening since the beginning of time and it didn`t stop us from raising the standards and leaving barbarism behind. Why is it all of a sudden is it ok to climb back down into that pit? What changed? They haven`t changed an iota or become more civilized. We don`t need to stand on the moral low ground,like the soviets did, to fight the war on terror.

DomKen -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/29/2008 12:17:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator The oath that I took said: I, (state your full name), do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. That oath says NOTHING about coddling terrorist filth, treating them nicely, obeying the Geneva Conventions, or the UN, or the sensitivities of liberals, any other such dribble.... Actually that oath does say exactly that. Article VI of the US Constitution: quote: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land Therefore that oath you and I took does require that we uphold the Geneva Conventions.

farglebargle -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/29/2008 12:55:48 PM)
quote: The oath that I took said: 1) That's not what you were asked. quote: Do you believe you possess any measure of Personal Honor, given your apparent contempt for your oath to the Constitution and Laws of the United States? A simple yes or no is sufficient, I think. But then you go on to say: quote: The PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES said its ok and thats good enough for me. We hanged Nazis at Nuremberg who said "The PRESIDENT OF GERMANY said it's ok, and that's good enough for me" quote: A military persons job is to OBEY. You forgot the part about LAWFUL ORDERS. So, despite your avoidance of a direct answer, I think everyone here has sufficient evidence of your possession or lack of Honor. Some would say, that anyone one without Honor is unfit to serve this nation, and their 'wrapping themselves in the flag' is the ultimate disrespect of those who HONORABLY sacrificed on the nation's behalf.

Termyn8or -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/29/2008 1:00:44 PM)
Y'know DA I am about to top you, I think you'll like it. And I jumped through most of this shit with all the incessant quoting and bullshit. I really wish they would remove that feature. You may want to see torture under color of law, but the law doesn't mean shit to me. If someone stole my noey or musical instruments that would be one thing. But I have this maked lady ashtray stand, and I know there are only five in existence in the whole world, it was made in the forties. If someone stole that, whoever brought them into my realm would be chained to a chair and tortured. And they are not getting released until I have my ashtray back. I don't care if they piss and shit themselves, they are not getting out. That would happen most likely when I walk in the door with a chainsaw. My posse would go retrieve my items, which would include my ashtray and anything else of value, and everybody there would be dead. Then my hostage would be killed. Torture is fine in my book, I just don't think it should be legal. No matter what we may do, we have to save face, we cannot condone it in any way. Those tortured should always be killed before they are released so that they keep their mouth shut. Let's face up to what we are. When they remade the Twilight Zone in the eighties I think, there was an episode entitled "A Small Talent For War". This alien showed up at the UN and told that they were going to terminate the human race because we have a small talent for war. That they were the ones who seeded the planet and the experiment was deemed a failure. The UN pleaded and got like 24 hours to fix it. So whatever they did, changed treaties, and in the case of the UN, their charter no doubt, sure enough in 24 hours the alien was back. They presented a book which contained the treaties and whatever and announced that they had achieved world peace. The alien started laughing. All the guys at the UN were laughing with the alien, or so they thought. Then the alien says something like "You misunderstand, you have a small talent for war means just that, too small a talent for us to use, you were bred to be soldiers. That's what I meant by small talent for war. But I must thank you for the best laugh I've had in some time. And looking at this, you have peace in your hearts. You are useless to us". So let's stop pretending. When Palestine was taken in 1948, they should have just killed them all. When the White Man settled in the US, all of the natives should have been killed. That is how you take a country. We cannot occupy and govern a country alongside the native who have more innate rights than we. They will never be content. Kill them all. Get our boys out of Iraq and send about a thousand neutron bombs over there. Case closed. If we stop pretending to be humanitarians maybe we can get something fucking done. Any other countries want to pipe up ? Well now that we and Isael have what used to be Iraq we won't spend our expensive neutron boms, just turn most of the middle east into a glass parking lot. Look at all the money we'll save on asphalt. Look at all the money we'll save on EVERYTHING. We are immoral, gutless, lawless war mongers. Take over the fucking world and be done with it. We are bullies with a big gun. Use it. Don't take any shit from anyone and stop calling it a democracy, it never was, it is and always has been a republic. Let our leaders do their job of taking over the world. And with neutron bombs we can solve overpopulation in the same fell swoop. Why don't we just do that instead of hiding behind a facade ? Is it because Russia and China might get pissed ? Nuke them too and fix the trade deficit as well. Fuckum, fuckum all. Do it. Quit pussyfooting around. The fact of the matter is, when you govern by force the people will never be happy, it follows that you cannot take over a country and live in peace with the indigenous people. So why try ? We re the only country in the world that has used nuclear weapons offensively. That is proof that we have them and have the balls to use them. Proven fact. Therefore we do whatever we want and everybody else does whatever we want. Don't like it ? BOOM. Case closed. T

Thadius -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/29/2008 1:08:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator The oath that I took said: I, (state your full name), do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. That oath says NOTHING about coddling terrorist filth, treating them nicely, obeying the Geneva Conventions, or the UN, or the sensitivities of liberals, any other such dribble.... Actually that oath does say exactly that. Article VI of the US Constitution: quote: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land Therefore that oath you and I took does require that we uphold the Geneva Conventions. Not only that. All recruits are given a course on the Geneva convention, and are required to sign an agreement... Also if you look at your military id card, if you still have it... There is an entire little section there stating how you are classified. The closest thing I can recall to an official sanctioning (in writing) were the old and not oft issued MAC-V id cards that pretty much stated the bearer was free to do just about anything, and that they were not to be detained, delayed, or obstructed. The bearer of the card was also supposed to destroy the card upon imminent (to lazy to spell check) capture or completion of the tour the card covered.

DomAviator -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/29/2008 1:19:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator The oath that I took said: I, (state your full name), do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. That oath says NOTHING about coddling terrorist filth, treating them nicely, obeying the Geneva Conventions, or the UN, or the sensitivities of liberals, any other such dribble.... Actually that oath does say exactly that. Article VI of the US Constitution: quote: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land Therefore that oath you and I took does require that we uphold the Geneva Conventions. It is within presidential powers to revoke a treaty or any part thereof, as per Goldwater v. Carter when Carter (a DEMOCRAT mind you) terminated the treaty with China. The Supreme Court was unable to reach a majority resulting in the suit being dismissed. Therefore, the precedent was set that the President can revoke or modify a treaty without the approval of congress or the senate. Ironically CLINTON started the torture and GORE supported it: "Clinton recapped the arguments on both sides for Gore: Lloyd says this. Dick says that. Gore laughed and said, 'That's a no-brainer. Of course it's a violation of international law, that's why it's a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass" Clinton, not Bush made it legal with PDD-39 http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/pdd39.htm Soooo, Bush used Carter's precedent and Clinton's directive on Extraordinary Rendition to put us in the open torture business. While I generally dont like Gore, I agree with him on this... Covert actions are outside of International Law. Fuck international law, all that matters is winning. Our very survival depends on it... As for the rest of it - if someone with silver oak leaves or better says so, thats good enough for me. Its quite fucking simple in my eyes.... I have gold oak leaves, if the person giving the orders has silver ones, or a silver eagle, or stars of any number - thats reason enough for me. I wasn't a fucking constitutional lawyer, I was the component necessary to complete the weapons system to which I was assigned. Its not my job to question policy, I was an instrument of that policy. Bush has simply continued and expanded upon the policy set by Clinton - which says we snatch terrorists and torture them. Good enough for me. If the new president says stop, them we shall stop... This one doesnt, and he is the CINC.

DomKen -> RE: These rats are responsible for the torture... (6/29/2008 2:46:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator The oath that I took said: I, (state your full name), do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. That oath says NOTHING about coddling terrorist filth, treating them nicely, obeying the Geneva Conventions, or the UN, or the sensitivities of liberals, any other such dribble.... Actually that oath does say exactly that. Article VI of the US Constitution: quote: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land Therefore that oath you and I took does require that we uphold the Geneva Conventions. It is within presidential powers to revoke a treaty or any part thereof, as per Goldwater v. Carter when Carter (a DEMOCRAT mind you) terminated the treaty with China. The Supreme Court was unable to reach a majority resulting in the suit being dismissed. Therefore, the precedent was set that the President can revoke or modify a treaty without the approval of congress or the senate. Ironically CLINTON started the torture and GORE supported it: "Clinton recapped the arguments on both sides for Gore: Lloyd says this. Dick says that. Gore laughed and said, 'That's a no-brainer. Of course it's a violation of international law, that's why it's a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass" Clinton, not Bush made it legal with PDD-39 http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/pdd39.htm Soooo, Bush used Carter's precedent and Clinton's directive on Extraordinary Rendition to put us in the open torture business. While I generally dont like Gore, I agree with him on this... Covert actions are outside of International Law. Fuck international law, all that matters is winning. Our very survival depends on it... As for the rest of it - if someone with silver oak leaves or better says so, thats good enough for me. Its quite fucking simple in my eyes.... I have gold oak leaves, if the person giving the orders has silver ones, or a silver eagle, or stars of any number - thats reason enough for me. I wasn't a fucking constitutional lawyer, I was the component necessary to complete the weapons system to which I was assigned. Its not my job to question policy, I was an instrument of that policy. Bush has simply continued and expanded upon the policy set by Clinton - which says we snatch terrorists and torture them. Good enough for me. If the new president says stop, them we shall stop... This one doesnt, and he is the CINC. Way to squirm but the document you cite does not indicate the president is withdrawing from any of the Geneva Conventions and no such document exists therefore you are obligated to obey the supreme law of the land which includes those Conventions. As to your obeying orders BS claim any order involving violating the Constitution is a de facto illegal order and you must not obey it. Ordering torture, since it is a violation of the Geneva Conventions and those Conventions remain in effect, is a clear cut illegal order. Your duty in that case is clear. Failure to refuse to obey that order makes you equivalent to the scum we executed at Nuremberg.

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