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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

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The PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES said its ok and thats good enough for me.

We hanged Nazis at Nuremberg who said "The PRESIDENT OF GERMANY said it's ok, and that's good enough for me"

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A military persons job is to OBEY.

You forgot the part about LAWFUL ORDERS.

So, despite your avoidance of a direct answer, I think *everyone* here has sufficient evidence of your possession or lack of Honor.

Some would say, that anyone one without Honor is unfit to serve this nation, and their 'wrapping themselves in the flag' is the ultimate disrespect of those who HONORABLY sacrificed on the nation's behalf.

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And before you give me the bullshit about Nuremberg, only the losers ever face War Crimes Tribunals.

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ORIGINAL: DomAviator

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: DomAviator

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife


Well, let's contemplate this.  Since we have ignored the Geneva Conventions and twisted the meaning of torture into what suits us, doesn't this open up our soldiers to torture by other governments if they happen to be captured?

They already are... Everything taught at SERE is stuff that has ALREADY been done to our military personell. What is going on at Gitmo / Abu Graib / the so called "Black Sites" is straight out of the SERE class. The curriculum of te SERE class is set by what the enemy does to us... The problem with the Geneva Conventions is that nobody except us and Nazi Germany ever followed them. Japan certainly didnt - death march on bataan, burma road, Unit 731 etc... North Korea? Nope, very bad... Vietnam? Well ask McCain or Dieter Dengler about them. Iraq in 1991? Well Jeff Zahn was tortured on TV and each and its a little known fact that every POW, male or female, was sexually assaulted. Our people have ALWAYS been tortured, thats why we have SERE training. The only difference here is we said "no more Mr Nice Guy".  

The point being when our soldiers were tortured in the past we did not respond in kind.  Which allowed our government to retain a moral high ground that gave us the oppurtunity to exert diplomatic and political pressure on those foreign governments that torture, both during and after the fact.  Read McCain's account of his experiences and how the changing political climate in the U.S. affected how he was treated by his captors. 

If we can't be above that, or at least claim we are, then how can we possibly give any sort of protection to our own soldiers from it?  

Fuck the moral high ground. I dont want the moral high ground I want a body count and bomb damage assessments. I want our enemies to be so fucking terrified to torture one of our men that they dont dare do it because doing so will unleash the wrath of God.

The moral high ground doesnt protect our men, punishing unacceptable behavior by creating an unacceptable body count does. Do you think it is accidental that the night they aired the torture of Jeff Zahn on Iraqi TV that the first President Bush, a Naval Aviator himself, authorized an alpha strike (everyhing that flies) at  "targets of opportunity"??? Essentially we were pissed off, loaded to the balls, and went up for payback and by the time the sun rose there were thousands of civilians dead, not a working TV station left in Iraq and only 4% of the country had electric power... (Guess there wont be any more telecasts of the American Air Pirate huh?)  Do you think its an accident that the Air Force put a bunker buster into a civilian air raid shelter or ya think maybe they were avenging their Navy brother??? We bombed dams, we bombed water supplies, we bombed waste water treatment plants so there would be pestilence and disease, we even bombed supermarkets so the fuckers wouldnt have food to eat.

War comes when diplomacy fails, war is the continuation of politics by other means. McCains treatment improved when we had enough and we started the unrestricted bombing of military and civilian targets in North Vietnam. Thats when they cut back on the bullshit against our POW's when the bombs started falling on Hanoi instead of on three trees at the intersection of a goat path. Thats when they knew we were pissed off and done playing games with them.

The way we can provide protection to our men is to be such a fearsome force that Satan himself is afraid to piss us off. As far as I am concerned, Lt Calley should have been given the medal of honor, been promoted to 0-6 and been put in command of the Special Forces. The only way to combat force and brutality is with greater force and brutality. Roosevelt said "Speak softly and carry a big stick" and our enemies should know that we will use that stick to bash their skulls in if they so much as look at us crosseyed. That is how you protect our men.

Holding the moral high ground has long history of not working.... As far back as WW2, our men have been subjected to everything up to and including vivisection in Unit 731. We sat back and said "no come on boys thats not nice we dont like that. Play nice we wouldnt do that to you. Remember the Golden Rule." and they laughed at us and kept right at it.  Bush tried a new approach and I applaud it. I say get the embedded journalists out, so that we can really start tuning up those who may be harboring insurgents.

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Yes, well you're are truly a fucking badass and i'm suitably impressed.  What are you going to say to the 19-year old who gets captured and and has Haji's knife to his throat?

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ORIGINAL: DomAviator

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Yes, well you're are truly a fucking badass and i'm suitably impressed.  What are you going to say to the 19-year old who gets captured and and has Haji's knife to his throat?

I will say "Sorry son, but your fucked." I will say follow the Code of Conduct - to wit:

ARTICLE I.
I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.
ARTICLE II.
I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.
ARTICLE III.
If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.
ARTICLE IV.
If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.
ARTICLE V.
When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.
ARTICLE VI.
I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
I would also say, "We will keep the faith, and make every effort to rescue you -but rest assurred if your beheading winds up on Al Jazeera - You will be avenged!" That "19 year old with the knife at his throat is now, always has been, and always will be fucked. He has been fucked  whether he was a Confederate soldier held in the infamous camp in Illinois, or if he was an American on the Death March on Bataan or strapped to a table in Unit 731 being dissected alive, or if he was in the hands of the VC or the Khmer Rouge, or if he was just sitting on a TWA flight and the hijackers found a Military ID card, or he was pulled out of a crashed Helo in Somalia, or a wrecked truck in Iraq...  They have always been treated poorly, and all we are doing now i returning the courtesy to our enemies... It used to be they could torture and murder our men with impunity, but now they will be avenged....

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ORIGINAL: DomAviator

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

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The PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES said its ok and thats good enough for me.

We hanged Nazis at Nuremberg who said "The PRESIDENT OF GERMANY said it's ok, and that's good enough for me"

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A military persons job is to OBEY.

You forgot the part about LAWFUL ORDERS.

So, despite your avoidance of a direct answer, I think *everyone* here has sufficient evidence of your possession or lack of Honor.

Some would say, that anyone one without Honor is unfit to serve this nation, and their 'wrapping themselves in the flag' is the ultimate disrespect of those who HONORABLY sacrificed on the nation's behalf.

Nice try on the Nuremberg reference but I had already said:

And before you give me the bullshit about Nuremberg, only the losers ever face War Crimes Tribunals. If Hitler would have won, Patton would have been tried and Geuhring would have been a war hero getting ticker tape parades. There are no points for second place, so if you dont want to face a war crimes tribunal - MAKE SURE YOU WIN! Whatever that takes, just WIN at all costs.   
 
Those who hanged at Nuremberg were good soldiers who served their country well and to the best of their abilities. They were good men who happened to be on the losing side. I do not support the Nazi regieme or the things they did - but they were soldiers and they did their duty for their country, they served the fatherland, and the Reich and they lost so they faced justice at the hands of the victor. Simply because someone wore a Nazi uniform doesnt mean they should be villified, they were soldiers too. For christs sake the fucking Pope wore a Nazi uniform. Don't try to call me a Nazi or an antisemite either, as I was married to a Jewish woman! The men who hanged at Nuremberg hanged because they lost. If we had lost, Patton and Eisenhower would have been at those gallows... In fact, the Nazis were a hell of a lot better to allied POW's than the Japaneese!
 
As for defending my personal honor, I dont need to do so. I owe you nothing, not even an explanation. I did my duty over the skies of Iraq, over Somalia, over Iraq again and then yet once again over Iraq. In between, I took brand spanking new freshly commissioned Ensigns and I made Naval Aviators out of them and I took brand new Naval Aviators and I honed them into a weapon that can and will project lethal air power anytime anyplace when called upon to do so by their President. I was one of a long and proud line, and I left a legacy that will endure and I have no regrets and no remorse. I dont need a proclamation of approval from you, the people who matter have gold wings on their chest and are following the orders and policies set forth by our President. Whether you like it or not, until 1/20/2009 that man is George W. Bush!    

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Yes, there have been abuses by our enemies in the past, but largely, the Geneva Conventions have been abided by and respected by all countries.  What you are calling for is a free-for-all that will harm our troops far more than benefit them.

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ORIGINAL: DomAviator

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Yes, there have been abuses by our enemies in the past, but largely, the Geneva Conventions have been abided by and respected by all countries.  What you are calling for is a free-for-all that will harm our troops far more than benefit them.

Rule, with the exception of Nazi Germany - name one single enemy that treated our prisoners in accordance with the Geneva Conventions?

Japan? They have a history of abuses that is too long to even list. Just a few of the highlights - the death march on Bataan, the Burma Road, Unit 731, and the fact that Allied POW's in Japaneese custody had a greater than 80% mortality rate...

North Korea / China - Yep, bastions of human rights there... We need not even address them.

Vietnam / Cambodia / Laos - Wonder why John Mc Cain still has a permanent disability from his time with them? Why Dieter Dengler of VA-145 was the only one to make it out alive? OK IO think we can take Vietnam / Cambodia / Laos off of the "followed the GC" list.

Then we have the various cranky Muslims - Hezbolla, Hammas, Al Queda etc... Well lets just say that Navy diver on the TWA flight wasnt given his Red Cross care package was he? I believe the GC also says something about throwing wheelchair bound senior citizens over the side of a ship? Cutting heads off is rather frowmed upon too?? SO, I think we have established that the Muslim groups dont adhere to it...

Somalia - Hmmmmm dead pilots being dragged through the streets by their intestines. Micheal Durrant being tortured, need we go on???

oh and the Ever lovely Iraq - where a US Navy BN (Bombadier/Navigator) was tortured ON TELEVISION? Where every POW in the 1991 gulf war - male and female - was sexually assaulted? (Thats why the sexual assualt resistance training was added to SERE. FYI, and if you research it enough you will find this to be accurate, Saddam Hussein had male United States military officers orally and anally raped by specially trained dogs!) Then again what do you expect from a shithole that tortures its own olympic athletes for poor performance...

So tell me, you say theat the GC have been followed by all countries? Exactly WHICH of our enemies followed it? GRENADA perhaps? Yeah thats right I thing Grenada followed it during the war that went on for what 11 hours?

How can things possibly get any worse for our troops than they have been for the past 100 years or so? The way I see it, having them say "Holy shit we better not do this or the americans will start dropping willie peter on playgrounds and shipping us off to concentration camps" will give them a moment of pause. The days of wine and roses are over, now they get it worse then they give it and taht provides them a reason to try to stay on our good side. We wont file protests with the UN anymore, now we will ship your family to Gitmo and tune them up till they curse allah and all he stands for.... That makes things better, not worse.

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• Articles 1 and 2 cover which parties are bound by GCIII

• Article 2 specifies when the parties are bound by GCIII
  • That any armed conflict between two or more "High Contracting Parties" is covered by GCIII;
  • That it applies to occupations of a "High Contracting Party";
  • That the relationship between the "High Contracting Parties" and a non-signatory, the party will remain bound until the non-signatory no longer acts under the strictures of the convention. "...Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof."

• Article 3 describes minimal protections which must be adhered to by all individuals within a signatory's territory during an armed conflict not of an international character (regardless of citizenship or lack thereof): Noncombatants, combatants who have laid down their arms, and combatants who are hors de combat (out of the fight) due to wounds, detention, or any other cause shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, including prohibition of outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment. The passing of sentences must also be pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples. Article 3's protections exist even if one is not classified as a prisoner of war. Article 3 also states that parties to the internal conflict should endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of GCIII.

• Article 4 defines prisoners of war to include:
  • 4.1.1 Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict and members of militias of such armed forces
  • 4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:
    • that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
    • that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
    • that of carrying arms openly;
    • that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
    
    
  • 4.1.3 Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
  • 4.1.4 Civilians who have non-combat support roles with the military and who carry a valid identity card issued by the military they support.
  • 4.1.5 Merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
  • 4.1.6 Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
  • 4.3 makes explicit that Article 33 takes precedence for the treatment of medical personnel of the enemy and chaplains of the enemy.

• Article 5 specifies that prisoners of war (as defined in article 4) are protected from the time of their capture until their final repatriation. It also specifies that when there is any doubt whether a combatant belongs to the categories in article 4, they should be treated as such until their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

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3. In order to promote the protection of the civilian population from the effects of hostilities, combatants are obliged to distinguish themselves from the civilian population while they are engaged in an attack or in a military operation preparatory to an attack. Recognizing, however, that there are situations in armed conflicts where, owing to the nature of the hostilities an armed combatant cannot so distinguish himself, he shall retain his status as a combatant, provided that, in such situations, he carries his arms openly: ( a ) During each military engagement, and ( b ) During such time as he is visible to the adversary while he is engaged in a military deployment preceding the launching of an attack in which he is to participate. Acts which comply with the requirements of this paragraph shall not be considered as perfidious within the meaning of Article 37, paragraph 1 ( c ). 4. A combatant who falls into the power of an adverse Party while failing to meet the requirements set forth in the second sentence of paragraph 3 shall forfeit his right to be a prisoner of war, but he shall, nevertheless, be given protections equivalent in all respects to those accorded to prisoners of war by the Third Convention and by this Protocol. This protection includes protections equivalent to those accorded to prisoners of war by the Third Convention in the case where such a person is tried and punished for any offences he has committed.

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

So, we should abandon the moral high ground as  have our recent "leaders" who have no concept of what they have subjected our troops to?  Two wrongs make a right? 

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Let me see if I understand this.  The butchers and murderers who were tried at Nuremberg were just wholesome, wonderful folks who were "good men following orders"?  You need many, many hours of intensive therapy and hopefully some very strong anti-psychotic drugs. 

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Furthermore, let me ask all of the anti torture people a simple question:

If torture results in information that will lead to the destruction of an insurgent cell or terrorist cell without harming Iraqi or Afghani civilians, would you prefer that over sending an Alpha strike into an area in order to get 25 people and having a collateral casualty rate of 1500 non combatant citizens dead? 

Take your choice, but personally, I would rather see 25 dead insurgents than one dead infant, wouldnt you?

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I will say "Sorry son, but your fucked." I will say follow the Code of Conduct - to wit:

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ORIGINAL: DomAviator

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

So, we should abandon the moral high ground as  have our recent "leaders" who have no concept of what they have subjected our troops to?  Two wrongs make a right? 

Absolutely! We should fight with an iron fist! Look at what the IDF does - lob a rocket we will bulldoze the whole neighborhood. Riot in the Jenin refugee camp, we will gas it. You kids throw rocks at our tanks, we will machine gun them down. Isreal has the experience in dealing with these "people" and we should follow their lead. The moral high ground didnt help the men who fell on the Burma Road or who were carved up screaming as their organs were pulled out as they were dissected without anesthesia in Unit 731, and it sure didnt help the Blackwater contractors in Iraq or the various humanitarian workers who have had their heads cut off on Al Jazeera. I would rather win than be morally right and I would rather our soldiers know that if they are maltreated, that insolence will be punished and they will be avenged. I would rather our enemies fear us, and act accordingly.

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Let me see if I understand this.  The butchers and murderers who were tried at Nuremberg were just wholesome, wonderful folks who were "good men following orders"?  You need many, many hours of intensive therapy and hopefully some very strong anti-psychotic drugs. 

The men who were tried and executed at Nuremberg were good soldiers who served their country with honor and pride. They happened to be on the losing side. The crews of the Enola Gay and Bock's Car killed over 100,000 civilians in just two strikes. Various allied pilots who firebombed Dresden incinerated so many civilians that the true body count will never be known. They faced no tribunal and got medals, rather than nooses. I myself bombed an air defense site colocated with an elementary school - do you think I give a fuck about those kids who Saddam ordered held in the school as human shields? No, I was after that target, which was a righteous strike per the mission briefing and the orders I got which were cleared above my paygrade, and the kids are "colatteral damage".  Their death is Saddams fault not mine. I also flew numerous strikes on the two "Highways of Death". We slaughtered the retreating Iraqi forces by the tens of thousands... Did I face a noose following a war crimes tribunal - no I got a Kuwaiti Liberation Medal and a few other ribbons and trinkets LOL! What  would have happened if we had lost? You think I would have gotten a medal or a firing squad?  I dont support the Nazis, but they were a worthy adversary and a well disciplined force that ran like clockwork. They did their duty for their country, and followed orders. As I have said again and again - the "war crimes" are defined by the victor. William Wallace was hanged drawn quartered and beheaded, with his body parts scattered across the empire because he was so popular with the Brits.. Yet he was a hero of Scotland.

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Do you really mean to equate "collateral damage" with the outright murder the Nazi's perpetrated?

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The question that should be asked is, what are the limits when it deals with national security?

Do you really think you would complain, cry foul, bemoan the mistreatment of detainees if information gathered prevented another 9/11?

The people of the United States should realize two things, somethings done in the interest of national security should remain unknown to the general public, and second, the general public could give a rats ass as long as what is done keeps them safe and allows them to continue living that life of blissful ignorance.

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

This admin perpetrated 9/11 and closed the books on a currently very successful cover-up as far as they are concerned, with the bogus 9/11 commission.

This admin. has been the most successful at keeping secrets and especially on 9/11 and wants us living blissfully in our ignorance and fear. (successfuly so far too)

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ORIGINAL: DomAviator

I not only support torture of the terrorists at Gitmo, I think it should be shown on cable as a premium channel! That would help fund the fight to preserve our liberties and would make a hell of a lot of families - such as the 9-11 firefighters - pretty damned happy. Nobody wound up at Gitmo for failing to sell enough girlscout cookies, These are dangerous animals who want us dead, ALL of us. I do not understand how anyone could feel bad for these monsters....