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Transparency and Sadists - 6/26/2008 9:37:45 PM

fairerthanshe

Posts: 3035
Joined: 1/18/2007
Status: offline

Greetings all,

For those of us in a Master / slave dynamic who have committed to the concept of transparency and who happen to serve sadists, how do you deal with the desire to withhold information which might get you an unwanted outcome?

Let me give an example, SJ is an extreme sadist, I am not a masochist. We are fairly active in the local scene and one evening after a public event, I commented on a particular Dom's unattractiveness. SJ told me not to make those kinds of comments about people in the scene or he would arrange to give me to them for a night. I understand that his desire was that I not say unkind things about others. So in this case I have been told not to be transparent - make sense?

In another scenario though, we talk about sexual fantasies all the time and I am to recount to him dreams I have, especially those he suggests through hypnosis. Oftentimes he will ask, "Is this just a fantasy or something you wish to make a reality?" and the question quite frankly scares the bejeezus out of me. Some of my dreams are horrifying in nature and I would never want them to become reality. So while I have the obligation to answer honestly and not withhold anything from him, my gut reaction is to lie my ass off and say "Oh yeah - that is so hot! I would love to do that!" because my feeling is that he would never make it happen simply because I wanted it so badly.

So do other people go through this same thing of not wanting to share all with the sadist who will do just the opposite or have you relinquished that part of your will to the point where it is no longer even an issue because the transparency is so embedded?

For those of you who might want to respond with "just negotiate for what you want", please understand that is not an option. Negotiation is not part of our dynamic - being transparent at all times is.

Notice too that I have not withheld to this point, just wondering how others experience this.

well wishes ~ fairer than she

_____________________________

The Nuclear Bomb of Awesome, rockin' the MoFo Hawk, still a bad-ass with a bouncy attitude, and spreading joy as a predator in Hello Kitty panties

Recently honored with membership in the West Coast Assholes

Post #: 1

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/26/2008 9:55:18 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

Well, it's a bit different for me because I do enjoy pain. Ultimately, it's important that Himself be informed prior to making decisions so it's a no brainer for me to just answer as honestly as I can when he thinks my opinions will be valuable to his decision making process. To that end, even if he has already made a decision, but perhaps lacked some pertinent piece of information, I'll share that without him asking. I have learned to be careful what I wish for though. It's rare that I get exactly what I want as I most often get what he wants to give me and that can be either good or bad. ::chuckles::

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to fairerthanshe)

Post #: 2

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/26/2008 9:58:24 PM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

For us Fox is a masochist and Angel is not. Angel knows he doesnt have to worry about what he says to me, transparent or not, becaue impact play is just simply not part of our repertoire. Fox enjoys the pain, ost of the time, and I dont get much out of it unless it is during playtime, so his hiding things from me or not doesnt impact that. I am going to play the way I want to regardless of how he has acted. My sadism is about my enjoyment, not his behavior.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 3

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/26/2008 10:00:58 PM

Shawn1066

Posts: 987
Joined: 10/7/2007
Status: offline

We're transparent at all times, and this is something I'm perfectly alright with. Of course, my sadist is different from your sadist. That's really all I can add to this discussion. While similar on the surface, our dynamics seem to be very different.

DV's Fox

(in reply to fairerthanshe)

Post #: 4

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/26/2008 10:13:13 PM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline

For those of you who might want to respond with "just negotiate for what you want", please understand that is not an option. Negotiation is not part of our dynamic - being transparent at all times is.

well .. the answer is partly there, if the expectation is to be transparent, then be transparent.

Consider this, SJ probably enjoys watching the mental/emotional conflict where you decide how transparent to be I know DV adores to watch me conflicted in this way. He does however always expect me to answer with the whole truth if He gives me a direct question. In fact, if I am honest if anyone asks me a direct question I cannot lie (even when quite skillful at it normally) i just give myself away.

If you initially negotiated to take what comes from SJ ... then take what comes. He is a responsible, honest Owner right? Then He knows where the line is for you and that pushing you beyond that will have consequences (you leaving him, hating him, being damaged, being too frightened to play with him, dropping poison is his morning coffee) that he has to deal with. Everything up to that line, you consented to.

Personally I would always be honest and transparent with my Owner - I trust him to be who he said He would be, and behave towards me like He said He would. That means He would be a complete and total bastard, use information against me, twist my thoughts and words while they were still in my head, and find opportunities for emotional and sexual cruelty wherever possible.

yummy

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio

(in reply to Shawn1066)

Post #: 5

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/26/2008 10:48:56 PM

fairerthanshe

Posts: 3035
Joined: 1/18/2007
Status: offline

Greetings all,

Thanks for the responses so far - just one of those questions which was bubbling around tonight.

Greetings softness,

I really enjoyed the last sentence of your post. I can totally relate to being with that type of sadist. SJ is hardcore and will use whatever knowledge he has to mindfuck me and hurt me in ways I never thought possible. It works for us.

I do tell him the truth always, because he knows me so well, I don't think it would be possible to ever lie to him. When I get scared of an answer, he knows it. He does enjoy watching me suffer either physically or mentally or emotionally. Its a good thing to focus on.

Thanks again ~ fairer

_____________________________

The Nuclear Bomb of Awesome, rockin' the MoFo Hawk, still a bad-ass with a bouncy attitude, and spreading joy as a predator in Hello Kitty panties

Recently honored with membership in the West Coast Assholes

(in reply to softness)

Post #: 6

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/26/2008 11:38:00 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: softness
Consider this, SJ probably enjoys watching the mental/emotional conflict where you decide how transparent to be I know DV adores to watch me conflicted in this way. He does however always expect me to answer with the whole truth if He gives me a direct question.

Love softness' whole post, but especially this part. In fact, Mr. Wonderful will intentionally ask me questions he already knows my excruciatingly truthful answer to, just to watch me cringe as I answer.

Here's the deal with me - If I truthfully want something and even beg for it, assuming he chooses to give it to me, he will always do it with an unexpected, sadistic twist. The man is shockingly creative and never fails to surprise the hell out of me. It's always a case of "Careful what you ask for."

If I don't want something, do want something, fantasize about something, am appalled by something - whatever it is I think about something he asks me about - I am expected to, and do, tell the truth about it. Typically, though, if he wants to put me through something torturous, I end up wanting to go through it for him. Not because I'm a masochist - I'm not. But because I seem to love to struggle through challenges for him as much as he enjoys watching me.

I can't remember the last time I said I didn't want, or preferred not to experience something from him. But I do tell him when an idea scares me. I remember one particularly freaky thing he asked me about (freaky to me, anyway), and I said yes of course I would do it, but I would probably need therapy afterwards (I wasn't kidding). I'm expected to take the extra step when he asks me if I'd like something or not, and answer why, and how the idea makes me feel, and any other thoughts about it. That equips him with all he needs to know before deciding what to do.

And if you trust him, just like I trust my Master, no matter how difficult or horrible the situation is, you'll get through it. :)

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to softness)

Post #: 7

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/26/2008 11:40:28 PM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

fairerthanshe, may I ask a personal question with no disrespect intended?

If you are not maso, why did you accept a collar from an extreme sadist?

Seems to me from reading your Op that this is the real 'elephant in the living room'. I could be wrong and if so, I apologise.

Best wishes,

candystripper

(in reply to fairerthanshe)

Post #: 8

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/27/2008 5:45:18 AM

DominantJenny

Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline

*nods a lot at what softness and ownedgirlie said*
As a dominant who does this sort of thing, the reason transparency is so crucial is that I have to rely on what you tell me as I build the scene/event/whatever. If you tell me you are afraid of something, how I work with it is going to be VERY different than how I work with it if you tell me you're just dying to experience it, and the results if you lie are likely to be disastrous.
Dominants have to be able to trust their submissives just as much (sometimes even more so) than the submissives have to be able to trust the dominant. We are the ones shaping everything. We NEED accurate data to do that.

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 9

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/27/2008 6:06:51 AM

chamberqueen

Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline

Your post made me sad - having to choose between telling the truth and be "punished" for it or telling a lie to get what you really want. It sounds to me like what you really need is a heart to heart talk about what honesty means in your relationship. IMHO one should never be punished for telling the truth, though one can choose to tell the truth with tact.

_____________________________

(in reply to DominantJenny)

Post #: 10

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/27/2008 6:07:45 AM

fairerthanshe

Posts: 3035
Joined: 1/18/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

fairerthanshe, may I ask a personal question with no disrespect intended?

If you are not maso, why did you accept a collar from an extreme sadist?

Seems to me from reading your Op that this is the real 'elephant in the living room'. I could be wrong and if so, I apologise.

Best wishes,

candystripper

Greetings candy,

Thanks for asking the question. I am service oriented and obedience driven and these mesh very well with what SJ wants in his girl. In fact, he refers to it as service to him, never ownership, and I am instructed to do the same. If you read my profile it says "in service to Senor Jaime". That is the cornerstone of our relationship.

Our kinks may not align on paper as nicely as they do in person. He is truly an extreme sadist and as I stated, I am not a masochist. However, he doesn't want someone who will enjoy it, instead he wants someone who will suffer all that he does to them because it is He who is doing it. When I say suffer, I do not refer to "taking it" or "enduring it", no, I am to fully experience each sensation and give it to him through my tears, moans, whimpers, flinches, cries. The energy we create is incredible.

I'm very lucky in that he takes things I truly love and turns them into torture so that there is always the uncertainty of direction, will this be for my pleasure or is this about to be brutal?

Greetings ownedgirlie,

I love your statement about trust. I do trust him completely or I wouldn't be able to do the things we do and to the level we do them. Its not just about physical pain since a lot of our kink is centered around hypnosis. I not only trust him to take care of me physically in the sense of no permanent damage, I also expect him to care for my subconscious mind. I've written a good bit in my journal about some of our hypnotic experiences.

Greetings DominantJenny,

Yes, I understand he absolutely needs to know the information. It would not do to arm him falsely. Nor would I ever want to see the consequences of such a thing.

well wishes ~ fairer

_____________________________

The Nuclear Bomb of Awesome, rockin' the MoFo Hawk, still a bad-ass with a bouncy attitude, and spreading joy as a predator in Hello Kitty panties

Recently honored with membership in the West Coast Assholes

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 11

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/27/2008 6:33:15 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fairerthanshe
Let me give an example, SJ is an extreme sadist, I am not a masochist. We are fairly active in the local scene and one evening after a public event, I commented on a particular Dom's unattractiveness. SJ told me not to make those kinds of comments about people in the scene or he would arrange to give me to them for a night. I understand that his desire was that I not say unkind things about others. So in this case I have been told not to be transparent - make sense?

Have you or is He perhaps working to have you see the people behind the looks?

Personaly, whilst I would not have My girl make such comments in public where it could be seen as disrespect toward that individual, she is free to discuss with Me matters such as personal taste and aesthetics in private. I don't require her to be transparent with everyone, but I require that she is with Me.

quote:

In another scenario though, we talk about sexual fantasies all the time and I am to recount to him dreams I have, especially those he suggests through hypnosis. Oftentimes he will ask, "Is this just a fantasy or something you wish to make a reality?" and the question quite frankly scares the bejeezus out of me. Some of my dreams are horrifying in nature and I would never want them to become reality. So while I have the obligation to answer honestly and not withhold anything from him, my gut reaction is to lie my ass off and say "Oh yeah - that is so hot! I would love to do that!" because my feeling is that he would never make it happen simply because I wanted it so badly.

Be careful as He may call that bluff... it isn't about doing something BECAUSE you want it but rather information gathering that He can use to base His decisions from. If you are giving Him false information you run the risk of causing Him to make a misguided decision based on that incorrect information... leading to a potentialy unpleasent situation if He doesn't realise the information He was given is incorrect.

My girl knows this about Me and certainly would not lie... it would rather backfire (Probably not to the point of harm, which is My only limit... and thus the relationships only limit). I enjoy her reactions and sometimes I will use the information about her fantasys, twist that to My Own ends and go after the reactions I want using those fantasys.... If she has lied then she will likely not enjoy the experience. Ah diddums and lesson learned

But as I say, t'is not a mistake My girl is likely to make

quote:

Negotiation is not part of our dynamic - being transparent at all times is.

Same thing here and thus slightly non-plussed at the post... transparency is a requirement... it doesn't matter if you find it difficult, put the work in, get over it and BE transparent as He requires!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to fairerthanshe)

Post #: 12

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/27/2008 6:49:00 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

this slave is committed to sadist, yet doesn't have the desire to withhold information, especially to effect a particular outcome regarding the communication of that information, so it hasn't ever been, nor is it now, an issue.

(in reply to fairerthanshe)

Post #: 13

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/27/2008 6:50:36 AM

chamberqueen

Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline

To go along with the last comment, there is a difference between being honest and being rude. Some comments are best made only to the one that you trust.

I was in a similar situation once, where I noticed that one person seemed to be particularly lazy. I mentioned this to the person in charge of them and was reprimanded by my mate for this. He explained that there are times when things are tolerated but it embarrasses both parties to have it said aloud; it would be better if I waited until the two of us were alone and then made the comment. There are always extenuating circumstances that you might not know about. One of life's hardest lessons for me has been when to keep my mouth shut. : )

_____________________________

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 14

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/27/2008 6:51:13 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

He asks for info to get into your mind and your response is to lie to him about not wanting something to happen because you expect him to be a mind reader and know that although you say you want to experience it, you actually don't. Weird.

I also don't see that not telling him someone is unattractive is lying/not being transparent. If he asked you if you were attracted to this guy, that would be the appropriate time to say no, his physical appearance is a turn off. He wasn't teaching you to lie, but to have good manners and think of positive things to say instead of cutting other people down.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 15

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/27/2008 7:13:51 AM

fairerthanshe

Posts: 3035
Joined: 1/18/2007
Status: offline

Greetings DesFIP,

I think you missed this last sentence: " Notice too that I have not withheld to this point, just wondering how others experience this."

I know not to lie to him and that was not the issue I asked about. My question concerns "does transparency become so embedded that a slave no longer even has those gut reaction moments?"

From reading celeste, softness, ownedgirlie and beth's replies, I can see that it does.

well wishes ~ fairer

_____________________________

The Nuclear Bomb of Awesome, rockin' the MoFo Hawk, still a bad-ass with a bouncy attitude, and spreading joy as a predator in Hello Kitty panties

Recently honored with membership in the West Coast Assholes

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 16

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/27/2008 8:54:02 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

With my partner it doesn't even have to be sadistic- it could be something he'd LOVE to do and has been DYING to do his entire life.

Mostly just keep talking. The first sentence out of your mouth is not the final word, or at least I'd hope it wouldn't be. It's not negotiating- it's getting the full response and understanding. THAT is what transparency is and you can't do it in just a sentence or two.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to fairerthanshe)

Post #: 17

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/27/2008 8:55:19 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper
fairerthanshe, may I ask a personal question with no disrespect intended?

If you are not maso, why did you accept a collar from an extreme sadist?

Seems to me from reading your Op that this is the real 'elephant in the living room'. I could be wrong and if so, I apologise.

Fairer simply recognizes that part of her service is in submitting to his pain. A service oriented non masochist is often the best partner for a sadist.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 18

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/28/2008 12:58:52 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fairerthanshe

SJ told me not to make those kinds of comments about people in the scene or he would arrange to give me to them for a night. I understand that his desire was that I not say unkind things about others. So in this case I have been told not to be transparent - make sense?

Sounds like you're expected to be transparent, so he can watch you squirm when he sees fit.......in keeping with his sadistic tendencies. 'Run of the mill.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to fairerthanshe)

Post #: 19

RE: Transparency and Sadists - 6/28/2008 1:17:19 AM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline

greetings fairer,

this is a really interesting topic...i've benefited a lot from your perspective and from the replies.

in terms of the scenarios you posed - given basically not being told to be transparent by not being told to talk about certain people in the way you were, i think the best thing to do is to take that and try to change your perspective on those people - you can still be transparent that you are going through this process and that it's something you are struggling with but working on, but in this case it doesn't amount to you hiding how you feel AND you would be putting his guidance to work, if that makes any sense.

it's a bit different for me as well because i'm something of a masochist. transparency is something that's required and that in many areas of our relationship is deeply embedded but that i've struggled with sometimes. it's an ongoing process for me/us so He knows it's a situation where i'm actively working to become as open as possible at all times. and in some ways it ends up being fun for both of us because my own resistance gives Him more opportunity to beat the hell out of me ;)

i think really transparency isn't just a static thing. it is a process. and if it's something you're obviously struggling with, sharing that struggle and the knowledge that you are actively trying to work to get to a place where you can serve him better because of it is not only being transparent in and of itself (which is a good thing) but also may bring you closer where this whole communication issue is concerned. in this case i don't look at it as negotiation by any means - just acknowledging that this is a situation where you are trying to be able to serve him better, if that makes any sense.

respectfully,
a'ishah.

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 6/28/2008 1:21:14 AM >

_____________________________

a'ishah (the artist formerly known as annabelle)
i have the kind of beauty that moves...

(in reply to fairerthanshe)

Post #: 20

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