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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 8:23:30 PM

fluffyswitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

quote:

and only his definition of healthy. :)

Thats a lie. I asked you to provide any definition of healthy that covers this, even your own (which you have failed to do). Please stop trying to twist my words and intentions.

welcome to the boards. unfortunately there are days where this is how the game is played...

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Post #: 221

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 8:23:59 PM

RedMagic1

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Lucky Albatross did at the very beginning. I give up a kidney to save someone's life. Love and even (gasp) sex might be involved. Annabelle isn't the one unable to read here.

Human beings are incredibly beautiful. They are capable of tremendous sacrifice. It's a shame you are unable to see that health is so much more than a sixpack.

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Post #: 222

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 8:24:08 PM

Amaros

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

she didn't voluntarily cut off all those body parts and mail them to him, at least as it's been presented in this thread, because she knew she would be gassed, tortured, or shot anyway if she didn't, and there weren't a lot of people around her being gassed, tortured, and shot at the same time, in the same situation; she wasn't at risk of watching her family be gassed, tortured, and shot; and your blatant assumption that the jews just went quietly to the gas chambers so that's somehow relevant is downright disgusting - or i could just quote all my previous posts for you as well :)

a'ishah.

Wha?

My point is, a cosmetic body modification however sensible or insensible it might seem, is distinctly different than convincing someone to kill themselves so you can eat them - body modification this not, nowhere near, it's not even close to a direct comparison. What you're getting at here, I haven't a clue.

Everybody seems convinced she thought of all of this on her own, that doesn't seem to me as being at all the case, and the whole thing strikes me as very similar to a number of psychosexual pathologies documented during the holocaust - it's a form of trophy taking, common practice among serial killers, and I'm way more worried about him than I am about her.

And as for the Jews enough did go quietly to take the point under consideration, and I think you're probobly taking Szaz egregiously out of context.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 6/30/2008 8:26:32 PM >

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 223

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 8:24:21 PM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack
I'm sorry, you responded to part of my ideas and ignored the rest, then tried to talk about a bunch of things not even related to the discussion. Then when I asked you a specific question, you back out by trying to reference this whole thread? I dont think you are reading this thread very closely to be honest.

Now, name 1 context, or admit your not having the same conversation please.

edit: you seem to be very defensive about topics not even being raised here, you also just ignored the rest of the highly relavant questions I aked you a second ago. I would be willing to agree to disagree, if you would be willing to have a specific conversation and take a specific stance.

the only "highly relevant question" you seemed interested in was whether i consider cutting off one's genitals or finger and allowing someone else to eat it healthy or unhealthy. i said it depends - because it does. i do not consider it an inherently unhealthy act. is that specific enough for you? :)

yes, i am pretty defensive when it comes to issues of consent, given that i belong to a segment of the population in general whose right to consent is often disregarded and a segment of collarme often labeled insane/nutty/lying, or as madrabbit once said in another epic thread, the worse kind of slave to own ;) and yes, when i first joined the thread, almost all of the posts i had read in the thread were in some way related to consent - because the definition of something as healthy or unhealthy and whether these people could even be defined as "willing participants" (as they were in the op) hinges on consent.

and since you are stuck on the "healthy-unhealthy" label, i resist defining things as ultimately or inherently healthy or unhealthy for a LOT of reasons, mainly because most of what i do is probably considered unhealthy by those who DO enjoy projecting such absolute definitions.

respectfully,
a'ishah.

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Post #: 224

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 8:25:40 PM

variation30

Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

Please listen more closely, we are trying to define if these acts are healthy or not. Not trying to say what is ok to do. I specifically stated that on my point summary just a few posts ago, so why are you even asking me this?

I'm just curious why it matters whether or not an act is 'healthy' or 'unhealthy'.

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Post #: 225

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 8:26:14 PM

fluffyswitch

Posts: 1108
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From: Buffalo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

quote:

and only his definition of healthy. :)

Thats a lie. I asked you to provide any definition of healthy that covers this, even your own (which you have failed to do). Please stop trying to twist my words and intentions. When ANYONE provides such a definition, I will be happy to discuss and even consider the situation by its values and not just my own .

the only thing that i can even possibly think of is taking out of the context of western society. i'm not an anthropologist but as other people have said there have been societies where it goes beyond even health but goes into ritualistic and mystical regions. of course it seems out of wack by our standards, but then we're forcing our values onto a system structured in a completely manner. it (cannabalism in any form) may not be healthy to us but it may be completely healthy to them, and if their society is functioning, so be it.

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Post #: 226

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 8:28:01 PM

Amaros

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Actually, a lot of cannibalistic societies have perished due to prion disease, or have stopped doing it.

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Post #: 227

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 8:28:42 PM

hisannabelle

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From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

Please listen more closely, we are trying to define if these acts are healthy or not. Not trying to say what is ok to do. I specifically stated that on my point summary just a few posts ago, so why are you even asking me this?

I'm just curious why it matters whether or not an act is 'healthy' or 'unhealthy'.

me too.

well, i recant. i suppose i missed the whole point of the damn thread then. i think the miscommunication centers around the fact that even if bdsm is unhealthy or destructive, as long as you don't object to my right to consent to it, i'll continue consenting to things that other people may define as unhealthy and destructive - since it works for me in my relationship. so, i'm sorry for anyone i offended in this miscommunication - the biggest problem appears to be (at least in my own posting) that i didn't realize defining "healthy" and "unhealthy" was such a big deal (i was more caught up on the earlier pages in the thread when people were attacking the people in the case in question's right to even consent to the activity), since they're also highly contextual definitions and quite honestly have no bearing on what i do in my own relationship (or how i respond to most things posted here about others' relationships).

respectfully,
a'ishah.

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 6/30/2008 8:30:37 PM >

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Post #: 228

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 8:29:14 PM

fluffyswitch

Posts: 1108
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From: Buffalo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

Actually, a lot of cannibalistic societies have perished due to prion disease, or have stopped doing it.

well that's why i said if it is functioning. like i said it's the wrong branch of social science but i have come across some stuff about it in terms of ritual magick and whatnot

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Post #: 229

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 8:33:53 PM

hisannabelle

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From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

ownedgirlie: We are not talking about what is sane or insane. That would be determined on a case by case basis, and the concept of sanity itself is questionable. We are talking about behaviors that are healthy, or unhealthy.

also, you did say in one of your posts very early on in the thread, and i quote:

quote:

That being said, people who cut off large parts of their body have a mental illness.

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Post #: 230

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 8:35:40 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

ownedgirlie: We are not talking about what is sane or insane. That would be determined on a case by case basis, and the concept of sanity itself is questionable.

First, who is "we?" I saw "beyond insane" and "extreme pathological pschyosis" and "not mentally healthy enough" and "stupid" "a danger to themselves and to the general public" mentioned of people who wish to participate in amputations. Perhaps you did not say them, but they were said. So yes, "we" are talking about what is sane or insane.

Further, to quote your own posts:

"If you would like to argue that someone consensually engaging an dangerous, permanently disabling, act which leads to their (predictable) death is not indicative of a mental disorder, more power to you."

"...someone who wanted his penis cut off and ate may have had a mental illness..."

"This is a complicated issue frequently addressed when talking about sexual behavior in the mentally ill."

"I agree that all behavior is a spectrum. One side is generally healthy, the other sick. If you want to you can draw a line down the middle. Now, I would place this kind of mutilation so far into the destructive side, that the light generated from the dividing line will take several years to reach it."

It seems to me you have indeed discussed what is sane and what is not. Having said that, I would be very interested to know what you think of what I laid out in my previous post.

quote:

We are talking about behaviors that are healthy, or unhealthy. That is, if left alone would the individual in question be able to take care of themselves without causing damage or distress. I would think that commiting a Frodo Baggins would qualify as damage, and could not imagine it not leading to eventual distress. I would think that the long term physical and psychological concequences of removing your own penis (assuming you lived), would be horrible beyond imagining.

Ask any female born in a male's body, who went through transformation surgery, and they'll likely tell you that removing their penis was the best thing they could have done for themselves. Removing your penis may be horrible for you, personally; this does not mean it is horrible for all who do it.

All I am saying is there are exceptions to your black and white presentation, which you do not seem open to even contemplating.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 6/30/2008 8:39:37 PM >

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Post #: 231

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 8:36:30 PM

Amaros

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle
and since you are stuck on the "healthy-unhealthy" label, i resist defining things as ultimately or inherently healthy or unhealthy for a LOT of reasons, mainly because most of what i do is probably considered unhealthy by those who DO enjoy projecting such absolute definitions.

respectfully,
a'ishah.

I don't enjoy it, but the fact remains that in evolutionary terms, this is a bit of an anomoly, I have never heard of another case where somebody consented to being eaten alive, and if there is any adaptive evolutionary value to it, I can't imagine what it might be - that's as close to "normal" as I'm generally willing to go.

Lets just say it isn't average, and until it's determined exactly to what extent it's "consensual", I see nothing particualry unreasonable about calling a time out, and giving these kids a chance to come to their senses.

Flat out, legally, you cannot consent to greivous bodily harm, or to be killed.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 6/30/2008 8:37:50 PM >

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 232

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 8:39:24 PM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros
and if there is any adaptive evolutionary value to it, I can't imagine what it might be - that's as close to "normal" as I'm generally willing to go.

last i checked, sadomasochism as a whole isn't exactly replete with adaptive evolutionary values. my relationship certainly isn't...so i'll reiterate: i'm coming from a perspective where the healthy/unhealthy issue isn't what matters to me; what works in my relationship is.

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Post #: 233

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 9:05:50 PM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Yeah. Not only is this getting really bad, I stand corrected about a certain poster not being a jackass. Wrong again.

There's a wonderful book, The Red Orchestra, that documents underground resistance to the Nazis. The Jews didn't go quietly to the gas chambers.

Once someone starts equating the topic of a thread to Nazi Germany, it's time to close up shop.

And I thought that guy in the Off Topic section who claimed that restricting of the 2nd Amendment would bring our country into the iron grips of evil Communism was going to be my "#1 Favorite Jackass of the Week"....

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Post #: 234

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 9:07:23 PM

hisannabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Yeah. Not only is this getting really bad, I stand corrected about a certain poster not being a jackass. Wrong again.

There's a wonderful book, The Red Orchestra, that documents underground resistance to the Nazis. The Jews didn't go quietly to the gas chambers.

Once someone starts equating the topic of a thread to Nazi Germany, it's time to close up shop.

And I thought that guy in the Off Topic section who claimed that restricting of the 2nd Amendment would bring our country into the iron grips of evil Communism was going to be my "#1 Favorite Jackass of the Week"....

ooh, now i have a second favorite jackass! and here i was trying to avoid that thread like the plague...

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a'ishah (the artist formerly known as annabelle)
i have the kind of beauty that moves...

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Post #: 235

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 9:12:24 PM

StrangerinBlack

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Joined: 4/27/2008
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"I'm just curious why it matters whether or not an act is 'healthy' or 'unhealthy'. "

I'm not sure it matters, although I would think that in general, being healthy is a good value to have. That just happens to be the question that was asked in the start of all of this. I'm happy to talk about other aspects of this behavior, but first I wanted to communicate my relatively simple view on the manner without it being distorted by others.

""the only "highly relevant question" you seemed interested in was whether i consider cutting off one's genitals or finger and allowing someone else to eat it healthy or unhealthy. i said it depends - because it does. i do not consider it an inherently unhealthy act. is that specific enough for you? :) "

I didnt ask you to define the inherent properties of anything. Listen more closely, you said that the health of this act was context dependant. I challenged this by asking you to provide any context where this act would be considered so. You have yet to do so, so I do not yet agree that context is relevant here.

"yes, i am pretty defensive when it comes to issues of consent,"

That's great, this will be the third time that I directly stated to you that this was not a conversation involving what should or should not be allowed to do. Just what is ok/ not ok for long term health.

"given that i belong to a segment of the population in general whose right to consent is often disregarded and a segment of collarme often labeled insane/nutty/lying, or as madrabbit once said in another epic thread, the worse kind of slave to own ;)"

I respect where you are coming from but as I am no way disregarding you, and you are distorting what I am saying, I don't see how it applies.

"and yes, when i first joined the thread, almost all of the posts i had read in the thread were in some way related to consent - because the definition of something as healthy or unhealthy and whether these people could even be defined as "willing participants" (as they were in the op) hinges on consent. "

You responded to what I was saying. I was not talking about consent. Thus, all of those early posts (which largely agreed with your view anyhow), were in no way relevant to what you were saying to me.

"and since you are stuck on the "healthy-unhealthy" label, i resist defining things as ultimately or inherently healthy or unhealthy for a "

umm, were talking contextually healthy/unhealthy. I'm not sure at this point what I can do to make you understand this. Stop pushing this black and white garbage on me. It has nothing to do with my views.

"LOT of reasons, mainly because most of what i do is probably considered unhealthy by those who DO enjoy projecting such absolute definitions. "

Or maybe I just don't like to see others I care about hurt themselves in a way that they would later regret. Evil me.

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 236

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 9:15:23 PM

StrangerinBlack

Posts: 44
Joined: 4/27/2008
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ownedgirlie: You just projected so much onto me I don't even know how to respond. Let me only say again that never have I attempted to asses the sanity of any indivdual at any point. I think were going to have to agree that we use certain words in different ways, because I dont see me being able to make you understand what I'm getting at here (assuming you read everything I said and not just scanned through to find what you needed to feel judged)

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Post #: 237

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 9:15:29 PM

Amaros

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros
and if there is any adaptive evolutionary value to it, I can't imagine what it might be - that's as close to "normal" as I'm generally willing to go.

last i checked, sadomasochism as a whole isn't exactly replete with adaptive evolutionary values. my relationship certainly isn't...so i'll reiterate: i'm coming from a perspective where the healthy/unhealthy issue isn't what matters to me; what works in my relationship is.

A functional relationship has evolutionary value, even if it's only theoretical.

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 238

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 9:15:39 PM

MsArcEnCiel

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Joined: 6/29/2008
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i feel that no one can know for certainity that they truly are in control of their lives, or that their chosen path will lead them to healthy places. Sometimes the risk factors are there and visible, sometimes not. i do not know why some people get stuck with an addiction for alcohol or for drugs and some don't, for instance. From a more spiritual point i often think that it is only after passing away that we even have hopes of seeing this all with more clear eyes. Self-reflection and learning helps in the meanwhile, but my personal experiences have thaught me what masters of self-deception or denial we people can be.

heidi

< Message edited by MsArcEnCiel -- 6/30/2008 9:16:29 PM >

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Post #: 239

RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 6/30/2008 9:18:48 PM

Amaros

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As I often point out, many people vote republican and consider themselves sane - generally speaking however, acting predominantly in ones own self interest is a common enough facet of human behavior that we have based our political, economic and legal systems on it, the exceptions mainly serve to prove the rule.

(in reply to MsArcEnCiel)

Post #: 240

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