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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 8:39:01 AM   
fluffyswitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

I believe that cutting parts of your body off doesn't necessarily indicate a disturbed mind any more that suicide indicates a coward. What it does indicate is a person who may have different values and mind sets to mine. 



very well put! this is exactly my stance on this situation. you do as you please as long as it doesn't hurt me. it's not my cup of tea but as long as you're not trying to cut anything off of me, and it's not going to harm anyone other than yourself, more power to you. it may show signs of mental illness but if it's occuring when they can make the decision somewhat logically (as in not during a manic or major depressive episode, they're able to tell the difference between reality and unreality whatever that may be) it's not my place to judge. IF and only IF i felt that it was a decision made when they really shouldn't be making decisions would i say something.

that being said this is something that i've never had to encounter in r/l so i'm not sure what i would do if faced with the situation.


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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 9:02:42 AM   
Amaros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

I believe that cutting parts of your body off doesn't necessarily indicate a disturbed mind any more that suicide indicates a coward. What it does indicate is a person who may have different values and mind sets to mine. I know jJapanese folk who have cut fingers off as a form of self punishment for failing in something whicvh was important to them and thus honour was involved. Damned every mercinary I know or who has worked for me, would tell you straight up that if they are injured and can't be removed safely from a hot zone they expect the kindness of a bullet on the head from their comrads or if that is unavailable the chance to do it themselves. In other cases it is unreasonable to expect anyone who suffers severs chronic pain and for whom prescribed medication does not aleviate the pain day after bloody day to be expected to suck it up because it is cowardly to embrace death. My family know this and if in my own case it comes to this, I have a .44 magnum hollow point with my iname on it. A warrior has the right to chose his time and method of death....

Iron Bear
(Incorrigible, irrepressible and irreverent)
Master of Bruin Cottage
(A Victorian Lifestyle poly home)

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

Omar Khayyam 1048 CE to 1123 CE (Persian Mathematician, Scientist, Astronomer, Philosopher & Poet).

I'm sorry, still no comparison to suicide in order to avoid worse and a healthy and otherwise sound adult cutting themselves to peices to please her cyber boyfriend - and I think the issue is less here, what sort of personality disorder she is suffering from - and she is suffereing from one - and what personality disorder he is suffering from to encourage her to do it.

The question here is really, not whether you would cut off a body part or kill yourself to please someone, but whether you would encourage someone else to do it because you can't get over yourself - no matter whose idea it was inititially.

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 9:30:22 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros


The question here is really, not whether you would cut off a body part or kill yourself to please someone, but whether you would encourage someone else to do it because you can't get over yourself - no matter whose idea it was inititially.



Well, I don't think that's the question at all, but, no, I wouldn't even encourage someone to endure a flogging if I had to do so coming from that sort of head space.

I think the point which has gotten lost here is that people have different lines as to when something becomes unhealthy for them. I understand that it's more comfortable to make something a universal rule, but when it comes to humans, we just don't fit into those kind of molds and, I do agree that if coercive methods are used to goad someone into doing something which is unhealthy for them, that crosses a line. That said, personal responsibility and accountability shouldn't be tossed out of the window to appease some sort of universal moralistic sensibility because, flat out, there is no such animal.

In my opinion, this thread has done it's job. The OP can take the various answers and draw conclusions to satisfy the desire for knowledge and draw whatever lines need to be drawn for personal bliss. Beating dead horses isn't my thing, so, OP, thanks for the great thread. I'll leave ya'll to it now.



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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 9:45:18 AM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
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Status: offline 		It takes two to tango - if you approve of her doing it, you by extension approve of him encouraging it.

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 11:40:22 AM   
variation30


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Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

I'm sorry, in fact I don't know how old she is or was, but typically, your psychology is quite a bit different before you reach full maturity, usually around 21 or or so, for one thing the brain itself is not fully grown, nor the immune system fully developed, you aren't always rational - maybe you don't remember or have kids yourself to remind you.


so until our 'psychology' reaches what you call 'full maturity' we should not be allowed to excersize complete control of our bodies because our actions are not always 'rational'.

I don't even know where to begin.

should people only be allowed to make 'rational' choices regarding their lives? whose stardard of rationality are we using? since all human action is purposeful, then isn't all action 'rational' (though it may not be the same choice you'd make). if we only assume ownership of our lives once we reach a certain physiological state, do we lose ownership when we begin to age and lose this 'rationality'?

quote:

Still, it isn't "normal" behavior for mammals to eat members of their own population,  particularly while they are still alive, unless they under radical stress, and absent that stress, it just isn't normal, average, typical or whatever, and in most modern cases, clearly the result of some sort of brain damage given the circumstantial behaviors. Nor are these people members of a culture where it is considered normal, thus the entire argument is specious.


um...so the wiring for cannibalism exists in mammals (look at hamsters for a great example) but it is abnormal for that wiring to go off unless certain circumstances are met, correct? so you are arguing that there are objective standards to gauge how an individual creature reacts to stimuli? if they act in these ways without the present stimuli, they must have a defective brain, correct?

quote:

Puhleeze, he wasn't assisting her, he was goading her to do it, this denotes a lack of empathy, ergo, psychopathic, which is still very much on the list of mental dysfunctions.


so he was advertising this to her yet he did not force her into it. who cares? in the end, it was still her choice whether or not to listen to his 'goading'. the point is irrelevent. and calling people who, in your opinion, lack empathy people with a mental dysfunction is laughable.


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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 11:46:06 AM   
variation30


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From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I do agree that if coercive methods are used to goad someone into doing something which is unhealthy for them, that crosses a line.


I'm sorry, but what line is crossed?


_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 12:05:08 PM   
JillSpade


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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I do agree that if coercive methods are used to goad someone into doing something which is unhealthy for them, that crosses a line.


I'm sorry, but what line is crossed?


Is this a debate tactic, or are you seriously asking?


_____________________________

"How should we like it were stars to burn
With a passion for us we could not return?
If equal affection cannot be,
Let the more loving one be me."

-Excerpt from 'The more loving one', by W. H. Auden

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 12:07:16 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JillSpade
Is this a debate tactic, or are you seriously asking?



It doesn't much matter since she said she feels the thread has run its course and she has left it.

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 12:14:49 PM   
variation30


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Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JillSpade

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I do agree that if coercive methods are used to goad someone into doing something which is unhealthy for them, that crosses a line.


I'm sorry, but what line is crossed?


Is this a debate tactic, or are you seriously asking?



I'm seriously asking.

edit: she said that she respects the right of the woman to choose to do this to herself but thinks that for some reason her free will is comprimised if someone suggested it to her. this makes absolutely no sense to me.

I have a collarme profile that 'goads' (if you want to use such a loaded verb) women into a life as a 24/7 slave. is my suggestion forcing the will of another to do something they do not want to do? if a woman accepts, is her will comprimised because if I wouldn't have goaded her into it, she probably would not have came upon the idea?


< Message edited by variation30 -- 7/1/2008 12:21:32 PM >

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all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 12:22:06 PM   
JillSpade


Posts: 19
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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: JillSpade

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I do agree that if coercive methods are used to goad someone into doing something which is unhealthy for them, that crosses a line.


I'm sorry, but what line is crossed?


Is this a debate tactic, or are you seriously asking?



I'm seriously asking.


It implies manipulation, in my opinion.

Merriam-Webster

1 : to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried to coerce the irreligious — W. R. Inge>
2 : to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>
3 : to achieve by force or threat <coerce compliance>

YMMV

< Message edited by JillSpade -- 7/1/2008 12:23:08 PM >

_____________________________

"How should we like it were stars to burn
With a passion for us we could not return?
If equal affection cannot be,
Let the more loving one be me."

-Excerpt from 'The more loving one', by W. H. Auden

(in reply to variation30)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 12:23:49 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		The primary question of this thread is "When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive".

I think we can step back look at a given norm of society, and a given set of norms within the BDSM sub-culture itself.

Mind you, this is the effort to establish what a "Collective Norm" is as opposed to individual morals and etc.  

It should not be the purpose to judge those outside of the norm,  it's to establish what is unhealthy and destructive for the "collective norm".   In this case, the collective norm being the BDSM sub-culture.

Activitities resulting is death, I'm certain is pretty much the norm for our BDSM Sub-Culture.   I'm pretty certain that cannibalism is not part of the "norm" as well.  I'm talking about things from a group of people perspective here.

Sure we can it around and debate certain topics all day long.  Still we are talking about things that don't fall within the Group Norm of BDSM.   As much as people try to deny that any Norms for BDSM does not exist.   Still there are norms.  The things we have in common the most with one another.

In so many ways, we are all different.  Sure we all like to or want to stand out at times.  However, in many regards what are the normal things that most BDSM on a whole have in common. 

Clearly, there is a general idea of what is unhealthy or destructive in our own sub-culture.   Even people doing or engaging in certain activities know that they are not in the "Norm" of the BDSM sub-culture, let alone within the normal of over all society.

I do think and believe that group norms, have a very specific function.  Because if one steps out side the group norm, they are at risk of being taken down by the group itself.

We have seen time and time again, this effect on the message boards even.  Were one person will make start a thread, to only be ganged up by nearly everybody.  We all start to function together in taking down somebody as a group.

This is just the nature of "Social Group Behaviors".  People with things in common tend to function well together at times.

< Message edited by Owner4SexSlave -- 7/1/2008 12:25:18 PM >

(in reply to WhatUrSeeking)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 12:27:41 PM   
JillSpade


Posts: 19
Joined: 5/29/2008
Status: offline 		-fast reply-

Any BDSM activity, which will fuck me up to the point of no return is destructive and harmful to me, and I should stop. That's really the only thing I can say for sure on this topic.


_____________________________

"How should we like it were stars to burn
With a passion for us we could not return?
If equal affection cannot be,
Let the more loving one be me."

-Excerpt from 'The more loving one', by W. H. Auden

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)
Profile   Post #: 272
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 12:34:43 PM   
variation30


Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JillSpade


It implies manipulation, in my opinion.

Merriam-Webster

1 : to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried to coerce the irreligious — W. R. Inge>
2 : to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>
3 : to achieve by force or threat <coerce compliance>

YMMV


the first and third mention force. to be more specific, aggression - an individual  being forced into somthing against his or her will. the second, I think, is the most accurate definition of coercion. she may have been 'compelled' to act a certain way, but is that the same as being forced into something? many things compel me to act in certain ways, but that does not mean they negate my will. I may be compelled or pressured to not speed because of various bits of legilature or safety statistics, but in the end, I am not being *forced* to act in a certain way. the choice is still mine. so long as he was not aggressing against her (physically forcing her) to do these things, she is doing them of her own will.


_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 12:34:48 PM   
fluffyswitch


Posts: 1108
Joined: 9/29/2007
From: Buffalo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

The primary question of this thread is "When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive".

I think we can step back look at a given norm of society, and a given set of norms within the BDSM sub-culture itself.

Mind you, this is the effort to establish what a "Collective Norm" is as opposed to individual morals and etc.  

It should not be the purpose to judge those outside of the norm,  it's to establish what is unhealthy and destructive for the "collective norm".   In this case, the collective norm being the BDSM sub-culture.

Activitities resulting is death, I'm certain is pretty much the norm for our BDSM Sub-Culture.   I'm pretty certain that cannibalism is not part of the "norm" as well.  I'm talking about things from a group of people perspective here.

Sure we can it around and debate certain topics all day long.  Still we are talking about things that don't fall within the Group Norm of BDSM.   As much as people try to deny that any Norms for BDSM does not exist.   Still there are norms.  The things we have in common the most with one another.

In so many ways, we are all different.  Sure we all like to or want to stand out at times.  However, in many regards what are the normal things that most BDSM on a whole have in common. 

Clearly, there is a general idea of what is unhealthy or destructive in our own sub-culture.   Even people doing or engaging in certain activities know that they are not in the "Norm" of the BDSM sub-culture, let alone within the normal of over all society.

I do think and believe that group norms, have a very specific function.  Because if one steps out side the group norm, they are at risk of being taken down by the group itself.

We have seen time and time again, this effect on the message boards even.  Were one person will make start a thread, to only be ganged up by nearly everybody.  We all start to function together in taking down somebody as a group.

This is just the nature of "Social Group Behaviors".  People with things in common tend to function well together at times.


i think that this is the best piece i've read written on group behavior and subcultural normative behavior i've read in awhile. i agree- a large part of what is being discussed here is not a matter of illness/health it's normative/deviant behavior, and the effect of social sanctions against those who are not engaging in the appropriate behavior. i agree that the thread is dying but i do think there are some interesting things coming out of it.


It should not be the purpose to judge those outside of the norm,  it's to establish what is unhealthy and destructive for the "collective norm".   In this case, the collective norm being the BDSM sub-culture.

however-- here i disagree or not so much disagree as have a slightly different perspective. i think that they are one in the same. in order to create a collective norm it's necessary to sanction against those who are different from the norm. in order to reinforce the behavior that is appropriate, safe, and healthy for the collective norm it's necessary to sanction against those who are doing otherwise-- often just to highlight what the group thinks works best for the group. there's nothing wrong with that, that is in essence how every group works. the methodology may be diffferent but the end result is the same- group cohesion.






_____________________________


“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” churchill

the first rule of fluff club is that you don't talk about fluff club!

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)
Profile   Post #: 274
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 12:41:57 PM   
JillSpade


Posts: 19
Joined: 5/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: JillSpade


It implies manipulation, in my opinion.

Merriam-Webster

1 : to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried to coerce the irreligious — W. R. Inge>
2 : to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>
3 : to achieve by force or threat <coerce compliance>

YMMV


the first and third mention force. to be more specific, aggression - an individual  being forced into somthing against his or her will. the second, I think, is the most accurate definition of coercion. she may have been 'compelled' to act a certain way, but is that the same as being forced into something? many things compel me to act in certain ways, but that does not mean they negate my will. I may be compelled or pressured to not speed because of various bits of legilature or safety statistics, but in the end, I am not being *forced* to act in a certain way. the choice is still mine. so long as he was not aggressing against her (physically forcing her) to do these things, she is doing them of her own will.


Right, I see your point, and there is a grey area. And when all is said and done we're responsible for our own choices. But in my own opinion anyone who gives a damn about me won't try to coerce me into something they know I really, really am uncomfortable doing. Talk about it with me; yes. Coerce me; no.


_____________________________

"How should we like it were stars to burn
With a passion for us we could not return?
If equal affection cannot be,
Let the more loving one be me."

-Excerpt from 'The more loving one', by W. H. Auden

(in reply to variation30)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 12:54:57 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JillSpade

-fast reply-

Any BDSM activity, which will fuck me up to the point of no return is destructive and harmful to me, and I should stop. That's really the only thing I can say for sure on this topic.



This is my own personal stance on the matter as well.   Your post actually made me think outside the box for a moment.  Applies to what is a healthy verses. unhealthy relationship.  The context of what can mentally and emotionally can fuck somebody up.  Everything is not all physical in nature.

It's ironic though, the things that we (as human beings) will endure or take from somebody we honestly love with all our hearts.  The damages that we are often willing to suffer through.   How it can slowly become a destructive force.

What's that expression "what does not kill you, will make you a stronger person."  however, I question at times "what does not kill you, can also make you a weaker person as much as it can make you stronger".

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 1:05:51 PM   
TiedDreams


Posts: 9
Joined: 6/30/2007
Status: offline 		The only norm here is that we seek to influence and/or be influenced by another. Aside from that all bets are off.  There is as much destructive aftermath here as there are minds that think of "new" ways to "push your limits."  Famous Zen quote; "It is not what one does that influences one's karmic debt; moreso it is how one deals with the consequences of those actions."


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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 1:22:19 PM   
StrangerinBlack


Posts: 44
Joined: 4/27/2008
Status: offline 		"I'll try to break it down more simply. "

Thank you, this post was must easier to understand, ill try to be as honest with I can in responding.

"I wrote a post, wondering where the line is drawn between what is considered "edgy" and what is considered mentally unhealthy.  I gave a few examples as to what I meant and asked what people think about that. "

Maybe I misunderstood what you were getting at. If so, I apologise ( I think that you might missed a lot of specific language here though "generally sick, may be inicative of an illness, ect). To address that directly, I would say that one becomes unhealthy when they are unable to stop themselves from doing things that will lead to lasting damage or duress. Now, I know these terms are subjective, and most people outside of an institution are able to do so, but there are obviously cases where people do in fact need help. Now, without calling anyone anything, I would suggest that most amature amputations are unhealthy in general (you seemed to think that I thought that having a body part removed and removing it yourself are somehow equal, I have only been talking about non-skilled removal here), because they are inherently dangerous and have a good chance of leading to permanent disability or death (I personally believe that is is also a major indicator of a mental illness, but if you don't, thats ok). I would also say, that the intent to remove your own sexual organs, preventing you from ever having an orgasm, or making love directly again, seems to fall into the category of unhealthy, in the sense that it would most likely later lead to disability and distress. ( I also do not find a sex change operation and cutting your willy off with a butcher knife have anything to do with each other, do you , really?)

"You replied, saying no one was talking about mental health issues. "

No, I said that no one was judging the sanity of another person. I think that the concept of mental health or unhealthy from a practical, daily life, perspective, has been valuable to explore here.

"I replied, showing you where people, yourself included, were indeed talking about mental health issues, and hoping you (or anyone else) might address the examples I wrote earlier. "

Just because I used the word psychosis, does not mean that I was calling anyone insane, which I thought was what you were telling me.

"What I understand about what you're getting at here, is that this subject is black and white to you, "

You really should read what I wrote. I have said again and again that these terms are not black and white, and that individuals can not be judged by us and several other things. You just don't want to believe me. We are talking about health in a context based discussion, my current challenge is for anyone to present a personal definition or context of mental health, which includes either of the two stories mentioned as healthy. So far no one has done so.

"although I don't know where you draw the line."

That's because I don't. Although if you look at individual examples, you can often see if a decision was constructive or destructive over the long run (I have personally done things I later wish I had not, I'm sure most people have.

"I have not projected a thing, nor have I judged.  "

You just misjudged me as trying to reduce this to a black and white issue.........

"I have, in fact, refrained from judgment and simply pondered a question.  "

No, that's not possible, but I do appreciate your thoughts and insights in the matter.

< Message edited by StrangerinBlack -- 7/1/2008 1:45:20 PM >

(in reply to JillSpade)
Profile   Post #: 278
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 1:35:53 PM   
StrangerinBlack


Posts: 44
Joined: 4/27/2008
Status: offline 		Let me flip this around and ask a simple question.

How many of you would feel comfortable being part of a scene (or with a friend joining), in which disfigurement, mutilation, and dismemberment were considered to be normal, healthy, activities, and where death in scene was common and was viewed as an "enlightened spiritual choice", with no accountablity or blame to the death dealing party?

Anyone who would not seems to share at least a partially shared set of values as far as what personally constitutes healthy to them.


Anyway, I need to head back home, but I look foward to discussing this later tonight.

< Message edited by StrangerinBlack -- 7/1/2008 1:46:56 PM >

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 1:47:36 PM   
phoenixrising43


Posts: 51
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline 		That is very true.  But sometimes you don't really know what kind of baggage someone is bringing into the relationship.  Especially if you don't live with them.   Eventually the cracks in the facade start showing though.  When you love someone, you try to stick it out for a bit and hope it gets better.  But when it doesn't.  You just have to walk away and cut all ties with that person.  That person becomes kind of toxic to you.  Doesn't really matter if it is a BDSM relationship or not.  Sometimes any relationship goes south for whatever reasons.  I think when someone's issues become emotionally draining on you....it's not healthy period for either person.

I understand that not every Ds or BDSM relationship is based on being in love with each other.

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