RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (Full Version)

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hisannabelle -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 9:20:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

ownedgirlie: You just projected so much onto me I don't even know how to respond. Let me only say again that never have I attempted to asses the sanity of any indivdual at any point. I think were going to have to agree that we use certain words in different ways, because I dont see me being able to make you understand what I'm getting at here (assuming you read everything I said and not just scanned through to find what you needed to feel judged)


you were the one talking sanity and mental health/illness for the first four pages of this thread! the quotes she posted were things you have said. how is that projecting?




Amaros -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 9:29:19 PM)

The fact remains, that people can be often be convinced, for a variety of reasons, to act against their own self interest - PT Barnum was not the first, only the most famous to observe this: usually because they are fed incomplete or false information - thus the standard of informed consent, which applies in law, if not always in politics, religion, or the media in general.

And yes, the list of people who consider me normal is short one indeed.




variation30 -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 9:53:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Yeah.  Not only is this getting really bad, I stand corrected about a certain poster not being a jackass.  Wrong again.

There's a wonderful book, The Red Orchestra, that documents underground resistance to the Nazis.  The Jews didn't go quietly to the gas chambers.

Once someone starts equating the topic of a thread to Nazi Germany, it's time to close up shop.



And I thought that guy in the Off Topic section who claimed that restricting of the 2nd Amendment would bring our country into the iron grips of evil Communism was going to be my "#1 Favorite Jackass of the Week"....


communism, doubtful.

totalitarianism and even more of a police state...well...




variation30 -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 10:03:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

I'm not sure it matters, although I would think that in general, being healthy is a good value to have. That just happens to be the question that was asked in the start of all of this. I'm happy to talk about other aspects of this behavior, but first I wanted to communicate my relatively simple view on the manner without it being distorted by others.


the topic that should be discussed is what value being healthy really has. as we all should know, all values are subjective to the individual. now I'm not speaking about mere aesthetics, I'm speaking about everything. I have a value on my health. I may or may not value it more than smoking regularly. I may or may not value it more than jumping out of an airplane. I may or may not value it enough to buy a more expensive, but safer car. I also have a value on my body. for instance, one of my kidney's has a price, as does one of my testicles, as does my blood, etc. these values are, of course, not limited to currency. I may, for instance, value a life of hard drinking over my liver, listening to loud music over my eardrums, or I may even value an experience of having my body consumed by another person over keeping that body part on my person, as it were.

the issue at hand is whether or not we think individuals can do with their mind and body what they will. to this question you either answer yes or no. there are no other answers.

if yes, then you(plural) should have no problem letting another individual engage in unhealthy (and perhaps unwise) decisions as it is their body and their life and they should be free to do with them what they desire.

if you answer no, then that logic will lead to some rather interesting ends - because if you do not own your mind and body, who does?




Amaros -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 10:11:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Yeah.  Not only is this getting really bad, I stand corrected about a certain poster not being a jackass.  Wrong again.

There's a wonderful book, The Red Orchestra, that documents underground resistance to the Nazis.  The Jews didn't go quietly to the gas chambers.

Once someone starts equating the topic of a thread to Nazi Germany, it's time to close up shop.

Why? Because some social retard on usenet said so once? It's a fascinating and thoroughly documented example of how to use mob psychology to turn an entire population into a bunch of psychopaths. Given the recent reptitions, you ignore it at your own peril.

Here for instance, we have people convincing themselves that talking someone into killing themselves so you can eat them is the same as getting a tattoo. Fucking nihilists.






variation30 -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 10:23:02 PM)

if more people make appeals to normative behavior having value because of theoretical evolutionary bases, I may have to go kick a puppy.

due to things like self-awareness (which we are not the only animal to show signs of), an ability to conceptualize consequences for actions and predict the probability of the future, and an abstract, symbollic language, we have created an interesting little tool. this free will is a great means to the ends of survival. however, with free will, we've also granted ourselves the ability to create our own ends and pursue it through whatever arbitrary means we think will get us there. our actions are purposeful. they may be ill-informed, unhealthy, irrational, etc. but in the end, they are purposeful. this whole process is 100% natural (that is, if you think the aforementioned intellectual faculties were gained through the slow and steady process of evolution). if our free will (if you'll allow the term) is an evolutionary occurance and all behavior stems from the utilization of that free will...then you cannot argue that *any* behavior is "unnatural".

it's hard to give a name to atypical behaviors without dipping into the festering intellectual swamps of the 'mental illness' crowd, but I think aberrant behavior is less of a misnomer.




variation30 -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 10:25:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

Here for instance, we have people convincing themselves that talking someone into killing themselves so you can eat them is the same as getting a tattoo. Fucking nihilists.



you are working under the assumption that the young lady is being 'talked into' anything. that may not be the case.

however, let's assume that it is.

if someone advertised an idea to her and she bought it, does it make her consent and her actions any less authentic?




Amaros -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 10:34:49 PM)

Send me a foot, I'm hungry, and wash it first you filthy fuck.

Please inform us as to your authentic response.




variation30 -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 10:39:09 PM)

I value my foot more than I value you not being hungry.

ergo, I'm not going to comply.




Amaros -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 10:49:59 PM)

That is a healthy response from someone who is not a 16 year old female borderline with identity issues.




variation30 -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 11:07:22 PM)

can 16 year olds not make decisions about their lives that 18 year olds could not? what is the age when an individual is mature enough to make decisions regarding his or her own body?

and what identity issues are we discussing? most of this thread was skimmed over because if I actually took the time to digest what some people wrote, I might have a brain aneurysm. consult your dsm-iv and get back to me in the morning.




ownedgirlie -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 11:51:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

ownedgirlie: You just projected so much onto me I don't even know how to respond. Let me only say again that never have I attempted to asses the sanity of any indivdual at any point. I think were going to have to agree that we use certain words in different ways, because I dont see me being able to make you understand what I'm getting at here (assuming you read everything I said and not just scanned through to find what you needed to feel judged)


I'll try to break it down more simply.

I wrote a post, wondering where the line is drawn between what is considered "edgy" and what is considered mentally unhealthy.  I gave a few examples as to what I meant and asked what people think about that.

You replied, saying no one was talking about mental health issues.

I replied, showing you where people, yourself included, were indeed talking about mental health issues, and hoping you (or anyone else) might address the examples I wrote earlier.

What I understand about what you're getting at here, is that this subject is black and white to you, although I don't know where you draw the line.  I have not projected a thing, nor have I judged.  I have, in fact, refrained from judgment and simply pondered a question. 




Owner4SexSlave -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/1/2008 1:40:24 AM)

Some personal thoughts of mine on this whole damn topic.

Just as it's only natural for people to have dark thoughts of suicide at times, it's only natural for people to have thoughts about other dark things such as cannibalism.

Many people have engaged in fantasy thoughts exploring how they would simply like to die.  Death is a bit of a fantasy trip so many people explore.  I'm pretty certain death by consensual cannibalism is on the list, next to shooting self in head, burning a live by fire, sinking to the bottom of the ocean, and yada yada yada.

For some people, they want the end of thier life to at least have some form of meaning behind it.   Call it "meaningful death syndrome" for lack of better words. I think a slave being eaten by their Master would fall into the "Meaningful Death Syndrome" category here.

This that said, consensual cannibalism is really about a form of suicide when it involves ENDing of life.  If you were to reverse the mind set of why people eat cow, chicken, deer, beef and etc.  Many people eat flesh each and every day.  Eating flesh is part of day to day human living.  

Come on here, we all know about Cannibalism and it's existence in African tribes.  That's just one example.  There are many cases in history itself.  Even in warfare.  Eating of human heart type of stuff.   But let's not talk about that.

I'm not placing a stamp of approval upon consensual cannibalism here either.

In terms of consensual cannibalism and end of life.  It's just a form of suicide, that is generally assisted suicide.  Now it becomes an issue, is the eating of human flesh moral or not.  For some cultures throughout history, it is/was considered morally acceptable within the framework of the given society.   It's interesting that mindless cannibalism without reason was/is not endorsed by these cultures.   The taking of another human life is serious business even in societies where cannibalism existed. In short, you just don't walk out the front door and look at somebody like a tasty meal, go fetch your shotgun and drag home dinner. 

Again, I am not placing a personal stamp of approval upon this activitity in an way shape or form.

I tend to view consensual cannibalism resulting in death, as a form of assisted suicide.   This is if you can work your mind past the morality of eating human flesh compared to chicken, beef or pig.  If you get past that, then you can see things more for what it really is.  

When it comes to assisted suicide, this is a topic of moral debate in society.  Does anybody have the right to take their life?  When is it or is it not morally acceptable?  You know all kinds of things for endless debate.   Regardless of how much it is debated.   It does not change the fact, people are killing themselves all over the world this very moment.   All kinds of different reasons as well.

Anyways, back to meaningful death.  There have been a number of posts about the survialism aspects.  Think this is or should be a no brainer situation.  That people will in fact eat other people under extreme situations for the sake of survive.  In fact, a lot of animals do the same damn thing.

However, in the case of the OP.  It's clear that nobody was eating somebody to simply survive.  A Big Mac from McDonalds would have worked just fine.

A long time ago, I actually read the better part of a twisted book.  Dealt with a modern day family of human cannibals living in the UK.   I'm not certain if it was totally fantasy or based in part in reality.  If I remember rightly, it was based on something that actually did occur.  Think it was strange Poly family situation as well.   Besides the point.   It was indeed mind blowing material for a read.   Actually, made GOR stuff seem like light weight porno.  I forgot the name of the book.  It was one of those things that dispised reading but I found myself drawn into reading.   You know to be really turned on and extremely Squicked out at the same time.

The thing was this, just from reading the book, I understood the Erotic factor going on.  As much as I hate to openly admit it!  It was rather Erotic!  it also was a Major Squick out for me as well.   The book was a A+ for mental mindfucks.

I wonder how many people have taken a mental journey and explored in fantasy (sexual or non-sexual fantasy) if they would, could or should ever eat another human being.   One of those things you only think about when the topic of cannibalism comes up, or perhaps when you are drooling over body parts of another human being.   When do Tits and Ass start reminding you of having a Prime Rib Dinner type of thoughts.   Then amazing words in sexual phrases.  Such as "eat, bite, nibble, chew"..  same words that we all use when talking about eating food.  Even the phrase "Sexual Appetite".   She looks Yummy.  She looks tasty.   She looks like a nice meal.   You know phrases like that popping out of Non-lifestylers mouthes even.

Just how far fetched is this notion of consensual cannibalism anyways?  Is it really a Mental Health issue, or something that's fucking raw and primal that lurks naturally in the dark corners of many peoples minds? 

The type of thing that when or if you have ever thought about, you felt like you wanted to piss yourself silly, and check yourself into a mental health clinic for just having 2.5 seconds of attaction towards those dark thoughts.

Personally, the last thing I'd ever want to do is literally eat a loved one or anybody I truely valued.   Us human beings tend to be selfish creatures.  Meaning we seek to keep loved ones alive at all costs, they mean the world to us.  We can't stand the emotional pain or loss.   Notice I said, we tend to be this way.  Meaning this is basically the social norm of things.

OK, for example let's say you were faced with having to resort to cannibalism.   You, a loved one and a complete stranger!  Who would be first on the list to go.  Generally the stranger would go first.   Next on the list.  Would you rather have your love one eat you, or you eat them?  If you ate them, would you have the strength to mentally survive?  If they ate you would they be able to mentally survive.   Some people wonder why pact suicide becomes a much better alternative.   Amazing though the thoughts of pact suicide were probally not an option while knawing down the stranger.   I'm just saying some crazy shit here, I know.   The kind of thing that makes for twisted camp fire conversation with people all hudled together drinking beer. 

I've left D/s out of it, up until now.   With that said, a submissive laying down thier life as literally food, is as submissive as submissive could ever get.   I'm not saying, it's good for people to eat one another.   That they should engage in this activitity.  However, I can understand it, if somebody says to another person.   You can eat me literally if you ever desire, want or need to.   For some people, it would be more meaningful end to life, verses some accident, a be planted 6 feet under the earth to one day become worm food, or future fossil fuel.

Still with all this said and done.  What is the true reason for somebody to want to end thier life and for somebody to willingly accept the responsibility for taking it?  

In many regards, this thread has been a debate over the HOW a life is ended, and very little focus upon WHY?  What is the logic or reasoning behind this madness?   The actual act of doing this might not be the norm.   However, are the thoughts of this perhaps more normal for many people then anybody cares to admit?   Dangerous Questions to ask ourselves.   Just how different are we compared to other animals on this planet?   These thoughts well, just seem to be animalistic and less then human.   However, we have flesh just like other animals do.  We many physical similarities to animals.  Two eyes, two ears, lungs, noses and such... Just do a little comparison between us and animals.  Well, you get the picture.

Anyways, this thread is a bit of a mind blower for anybody to think about.   We all like to engage in conversation at times about dark twisted things.   A sort of Love/Hate relationship we have for certain topics.   I'm pretty certain everybody has explored at one point in time the thoughts about eating somebody else.   These type of thoughts are what shape our own limits, ethics and morals.   At times we role play things out in fantasy inside our minds.   At times, some of us piss ourselves silly the very moment we start to engage in these type of fantasy, and pull back in fear of loosing our soul to the dark primal side.




BitaTruble -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/1/2008 2:05:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

Anyways, this thread is a bit of a mind blower for anybody to think about.   We all like to engage in conversation at times about dark twisted things.   A sort of Love/Hate relationship we have for certain topics.   I'm pretty certain everybody has explored at one point in time the thoughts about eating somebody else.   These type of thoughts are what shape our own limits, ethics and morals.   At times we role play things out in fantasy inside our minds.   At times, some of us piss ourselves silly the very moment we start to engage in these type of fantasy, and pull back in fear of loosing our soul to the dark primal side.


[sm=yourock.gif] Amazing post! I'm going to reread it tomorrow because it's 4 AM and I'm going to bed, but.. damn.. fucking awesome, Owner.. just fucking awesome.




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/1/2008 6:56:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

Actually, a lot of cannibalistic societies have perished due to prion disease, or have stopped doing it.


Prion disease only applies where brain tissue is being consumed.

Firestorm




Amaros -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/1/2008 6:57:00 AM)

I'm sorry, in fact I don't know how old she is or was, but typically, your psychology is quite a bit different before you reach full maturity, usually around 21 or or so, for one thing the brain itself is not fully grown, nor the immune system fully developed, you aren't always rational - maybe you don't remember or have kids yourself to remind you.

In any case, it isn't by any standards rational, and even in any close historical examples, I have never seen any accounts of the cannibal meal filleting themselves for the cannibals convenience, ritual cannibalism was typically performed on somebody already dead.

Again, cannibalism appears to have been common at one point, perhaps following the Toba supereruption, during the mtDNA bottleneck, and might have been perpetuated in certain funerary practices - what is the shelf life of an oral tradition?

Still, it isn't "normal" behavior for mammals to eat members of their own population,  particularly while they are still alive, unless they under radical stress, and absent that stress, it just isn't normal, average, typical or whatever, and in most modern cases, clearly the result of some sort of brain damage given the circumstantial behaviors. Nor are these people members of a culture where it is considered normal, thus the entire argument is specious.

Have a professional look at that brain lesion of yours.

quote:

In terms of consensual cannibalism and end of life.  It's just a form of suicide, that is generally assisted suicide.  Now it becomes an issue, is the eating of human flesh moral or not.
Puhleeze, he wasn't assisting her, he was goading her to do it, this denotes a lack of empathy, ergo, psychopathic, which is still very much on the list of mental dysfunctions.

Dark fantasies or no, sure I've had and do have them, this and worse, I create comic books, it's practically a job requrirement - just the way people lived from day to day in the middle ages is enough to turn most peoples stomachs, even yours - we've moved on.

One of the  most irritating things about this business is that I'm being put into the position of defending "normal", not something I "normally" do. I can  justify pretty much anything short of snuff, which is what this is, not "assisted suicide" - there is a lot of crazy shit in here, and a lot of people into crazy shit, but if you do can't tell the difference between "dark fantasy" and psychopathy it doesn't make you some brooding genius willing to contemplate the inconcievable, it makes you a geek like everybody else. 

This is really what seperates the doms from the ill muthafuckas: when a sub goes into subspace, she loses, in many cases, the ability to make fine distinctions or call it game over, the top is supposed to know where to draw the line - if you think punching and kicking somebody until their liver is bruised and they're pissing blood is acceptable if she doesn't use the safe word, you're not a "sadist" in the BDSM sense, you're a sociopath in the legal sense.

I resent it being talked about like it were an acceptable aspect of mainstream BDSM, you need to stop pretending that it is unless you're looking to bring the law down on everybodies heads. This is exactly the kind of shit our detractors look for. Shit happens, doesn't mean you can justify it, and in this case you shouldn't even try.

I can put in a very primal place without having to amputate any limbs, not so much as a fingernail, or harm a hair on your pretty little head, and that makes some people very afraid of me.






Amaros -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/1/2008 6:59:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Prion disease only applies where brain tissue is being consumed.

Firestorm
Actually, oddly enough, it turns out that cannibalism may have provided it's practitioners with an immunity against prion disease - a point for cannibalism, though I suggest you get a job in a morgue if you're into that, and yes, you will be misunderstood.




JillSpade -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/1/2008 7:45:28 AM)

-fast reply-

I'd never cut off a part of my body for anyone, including myself unless I had an infection and there was no choice. If I did it for any other reason, that would indicate in my case that I was not of sound mind and body and any Dom who asked me to would be dropped like a hot rock. I draw a really thick, bolded line there and at cannibalism. However, others who do it -- not my body, none of my business. 




IronBear -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/1/2008 8:25:16 AM)

I believe that cutting parts of your body off doesn't necessarily indicate a disturbed mind any more that suicide indicates a coward. What it does indicate is a person who may have different values and mind sets to mine. I know jJapanese folk who have cut fingers off as a form of self punishment for failing in something whicvh was important to them and thus honour was involved. Damned every mercinary I know or who has worked for me, would tell you straight up that if they are injured and can't be removed safely from a hot zone they expect the kindness of a bullet on the head from their comrads or if that is unavailable the chance to do it themselves. In other cases it is unreasonable to expect anyone who suffers severs chronic pain and for whom prescribed medication does not aleviate the pain day after bloody day to be expected to suck it up because it is cowardly to embrace death. My family know this and if in my own case it comes to this, I have a .44 magnum hollow point with my iname on it. A warrior has the right to chose his time and method of death....

Iron Bear
(Incorrigible, irrepressible and irreverent)
Master of Bruin Cottage
(A Victorian Lifestyle poly home)

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.


Omar Khayyam 1048 CE to 1123 CE (Persian Mathematician, Scientist, Astronomer, Philosopher & Poet).




JillSpade -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/1/2008 8:33:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

I believe that cutting parts of your body off doesn't necessarily indicate a disturbed mind any more that suicide indicates a coward. What it does indicate is a person who may have different values and mind sets to mine. I know jJapanese folk who have cut fingers off as a form of self punishment for failing in something whicvh was important to them and thus honour was involved. Damned every mercinary I know or who has worked for me, would tell you straight up that if they are injured and can't be removed safely from a hot zone they expect the kindness of a bullet on the head from their comrads or if that is unavailable the chance to do it themselves. In other cases it is unreasonable to expect anyone who suffers severs chronic pain and for whom prescribed medication does not aleviate the pain day after bloody day to be expected to suck it up because it is cowardly to embrace death. My family know this and if in my own case it comes to this, I have a .44 magnum hollow point with my iname on it. A warrior has the right to chose his time and method of death....

Iron Bear
(Incorrigible, irrepressible and irreverent)
Master of Bruin Cottage
(A Victorian Lifestyle poly home)

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.


Omar Khayyam 1048 CE to 1123 CE (Persian Mathematician, Scientist, Astronomer, Philosopher & Poet).


It may not indicate a disturbed mind for others, but for me it would certainly indicate that I had gone round the bend, as my mind set isn't built for it and I have no interest in cultivating it.  I have considered the possiblilty at length, and it's not something I would do and still consider myself sane. To each their own. For others who do it, I accept they may be of sound mind and body and other reasons you listed may apply.

I can only self reflect and judge *me*. I'm not going to judge others on why they would cut off a limb; I haven't walked in their shoes.




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