RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive

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StrangerinBlack -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 7:43:09 PM)
"I say it's not too big of a step from cutting off a finger to extreme body mods to scarification or asphyxiation and other things that some of us consider run of the mill edgeplay." I'm sorry, I'm not even clear at this point what specfic acts your defending. I'm not talking about acts which seem extreeme, I specifically said I was talking about acts which lead to permanant disablity/dysfunction. Let me make sure I understand what your saying here, you consider cutting off a finger to be edge play? Also, "run of the mill edge play" seems a contradiction in terms to me. People are free to do whatever they want (sorda), but again I ask by what standard of spirituality or personal expression you find this to fall under (let alone the guy who died feeding his penis to a German)

StrangerinBlack -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 7:46:12 PM)
Amaros: Let me thank you for bringing a little sanity into this debate.

hisannabelle -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 7:51:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack "I say it's not too big of a step from cutting off a finger to extreme body mods to scarification or asphyxiation and other things that some of us consider run of the mill edgeplay." I'm sorry, I'm not even clear at this point what specfic acts your defending. I'm not talking about acts which seem extreeme, I specifically said I was talking about acts which lead to permanant disablity/dysfunction. Let me make sure I understand what your saying here, you consider cutting off a finger to be edge play? Also, "run of the mill edge play" seems a contradiction in terms to me. People are free to do whatever they want (sorda), but again I ask by what standard of spirituality or personal expression you find this to fall under (let alone the guy who died feeding his penis to a German) by "run of the mill edgeplay" i was referring to acts which i had already described, like breath play or asphyxiation and knife play; both of those things cause or can cause permanent harm (in the sense of an irreparable change), as i discussed already. my concern is that by saying that someone cannot consent to having a finger removed, well, having a finger removed isn't really all that much more permanently harmful than a lot of things such as extreme body mods (tongue splitting, penus and scrotal splitting, nailing someone's balls to a board as previously discussed on this forum and done by a member here, penectomy, etc.), or even things that most people here might consider "run of the mill edgeplay" such as breath or knife play. the idea that people must not be able to consent to having a finger cut off is up there with saying that people must not be able to consent to a host of other harmful activities. i'm not measuring this by any standard of spirituality or personal expression other than that of someone who practices s&m, enjoys body modification and aforementioned edgeplay, and believes that it's possible to consent to consensual slavery (hence the consensual part) that involves more than a light flogging (although if it's relevant spiritually speaking, i'm a muslim with a long background in buddhist practice and my master is a buddhist). quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack Amaros: Let me thank you for bringing a little sanity into this debate. yet again: i fail to see how comparing mass genocide to assisted or voluntary suicide is somehow a demonstration of sanity. but maybe that's just the sound of my blood pressure rising :) respectfully, a'ishah.

fluffyswitch -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 7:54:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hisannabelle quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack Amaros: Let me thank you for bringing a little sanity into this debate. yet again: i fail to see how comparing mass genocide to assisted or voluntary suicide is somehow a demonstration of sanity. but maybe that's just the sound of my blood pressure rising :) respectfully, a'ishah. different user. i think.

ownedgirlie -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 7:57:31 PM)
~ Fast Reply ~ What a thread. Amy, kudos to you for the courage to put yourself out there. I do not think you are crazy; in fact, I think you are inspiring. Thank you for sharing that part of yourself, and being vulnerable to the criticisms of others. Since it's already been established here that I am crazy, I don't care what the reaction is when I say certain aspects of that practice fascinates me. Recently I asked my Master if I could drink his blood. After some consideration, he has decided to allow it, and I am eager for the moment when he feeds this part of himself to me. As for Bita's post on being consumed, I loved it when she wrote it, and I love it again, as she has reposted it. I can understand that mindset - what a way to go, eh?! One thing I've been thinking about while reading this thread is where people draw the line of what kind of mutilation is acceptable and what is not. I was thinking about those doo-hickey earring things (no clue what they're called) that people put in their earlobes, to create a big hollow circle, stretching it bigger and bigger. Is is sane to do that? Is it sane to do that but insane to remove the earlobe altogether? Or those who pierce their nipples and then weight them to stretch them. Is it sane to stretch nipples to an unnatural size? Is it insane to remove them? Is it sane to put a hundred earrings up the rim of your ear? Is it insane to remove that part of the ear? Is it sane to brand one's flesh with a hot iron strike branding process? Is it insane to remove that area of flesh, rather than burn it to a crisp? Is it sane to pierce one's labia? Is it sane to sew the labia closed in "play?" Is it insane to remove the labia? Is it sane to consume body fluid, such as saliva, semen, urine, and blood? Is it insane to take it a step further and add flesh to the mix? It seems the masses will tell you it is perfectly sane to cut, stretch, burn, pierce, and otherwise mutilate parts of the body, so long as you keep those parts of the body, and the difference between such activities is the dividing line between "edgy" and "beyond insane," "unhealthy," "extreme pathological psychosis," and "nothing to do with bdsm," to quote a few things said in this thread. I don't think one can definitively say X = insanity. Insanity is a complex issue, taking a myriad of factors into consideration. And I'm pretty damn confident that no one here is qualified to consider all factors about an individual who posts a few paragraphs on a message board. While it is understandable that certain subjects bring out a strong and passionate response in others, I don't believe those responses are based on anything but ill informed opinion. I know a lot of people, after all, who are absolutely certain that anyone who participates in bdsm activies must be, without a doubt, sick, twisted, and mentally ill. My answer to the question of when bdsm becomes unhealthy is when it causes damage to one's spirit.

hisannabelle -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 7:58:15 PM)
oh, i know, i was just commenting on the fact that he mentioned that amaros' input was somehow constructive, when in fact it was, well, as we discussed earlier. thanks though :) &ownedgirlie...so well said. i love bita's post on being consumed as well...i think it's one of the most compelling things i've read that can come close to explaining why anyone would want to, especially since so many people here seem to think it's beyond nuts.

Amaros -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:00:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hisannabelle yet again: i fail to see how comparing mass genocide to assisted or voluntary suicide is somehow a demonstration of sanity. but maybe that's just the sound of my blood pressure rising :) respectfully, a'ishah. The comparison would begin right about here: quote: This master wanted to literally eat his submissive. They were both willing participants and they both got off sexually on this arrangement. Over the course of a few months the girl cut off pieces of her own body starting with fingers. She would take pictures and mail her master these as well. Her Dom would cook her body parts and eat them. He probably sent her pictures of this as well. The arrangement was that after a certain period of time of his consuming her body she would commit suicide and he would eat her corpse. She amputated several fingers and possibly other body parts, but the pair was stopped by another party before she died(emphasis mine). I don't believe we're splitting penises here.

hisannabelle -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:02:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Amaros quote: ORIGINAL: hisannabelle yet again: i fail to see how comparing mass genocide to assisted or voluntary suicide is somehow a demonstration of sanity. but maybe that's just the sound of my blood pressure rising :) respectfully, a'ishah. The comparison would begin right about here: quote: This master wanted to literally eat his submissive. They were both willing participants and they both got off sexually on this arrangement. Over the course of a few months the girl cut off pieces of her own body starting with fingers. She would take pictures and mail her master these as well. Her Dom would cook her body parts and eat them. He probably sent her pictures of this as well. The arrangement was that after a certain period of time of his consuming her body she would commit suicide and he would eat her corpse. She amputated several fingers and possibly other body parts, but the pair was stopped by another party before she died. I don't believe I'm splitting penises here. she didn't voluntarily cut off all those body parts and mail them to him, at least as it's been presented in this thread, because she knew she would be gassed, tortured, or shot anyway if she didn't, and there weren't a lot of people around her being gassed, tortured, and shot at the same time, in the same situation; she wasn't at risk of watching her family be gassed, tortured, and shot; and your blatant assumption that the jews just went quietly to the gas chambers so that's somehow relevant is downright disgusting - or i could just quote all my previous posts for you as well :) a'ishah.

StrangerinBlack -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:04:47 PM)
"by "run of the mill edgeplay" i was referring to acts which i had already described, like breath play or asphyxiation and knife play; both of those things cause or can cause permanent harm (in the sense of an irreparable change), as i discussed already." Ok, but those acts were not in question in this thread, and thus did not need to be defended. "my concern is that by saying that someone cannot consent to having a finger removed," Um, yea they can. The question is, is doing so a sign of mental unhealth, and if not, under what circumstances. "well, having a finger removed isn't really all that much more permanently harmful than a lot of things such as extreme body mods (tongue splitting, penus and scrotal splitting, nailing someone's balls to a board as previously discussed on this forum and done by a member here, penectomy, etc.), or even things that most people here might consider "run of the mill edgeplay" such as breath or knife play. " I disagree. And some of those activites can be pretty unhealthy too (but do not have to be). But for most, harm is a risk that they are willing to take and not the goal of the activity itself (or at least the unevitable conclusion). "the idea that people must not be able to consent to having a finger cut off is up there with saying that people must not be able to consent to a host of other harmful activities" No one ever claimed this. Sorry. Like I said right up above were talking about what is healthy, not should be allowed. ." i'm not measuring this by any standard of spirituality or personal expression other than that of someone who practices s&m, enjoys body modification and aforementioned edgeplay, and believes that it's possible to consent to consensual slavery (hence the consensual part) that involves more than a light flogging (although if it's relevant spiritually speaking, i'm a muslim with a long background in buddhist practice and my master is a buddhist). " Ok, but lets just be clear here. Would you say, that in general, wanting to cut off your own penis and feed it to someone else is a healthy, or an unhealthy act?

hisannabelle -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:06:13 PM)
quote: Ok, but lets just be clear here. Would you say, that in general, wanting to cut off your own penis and feed it to someone else is a healthy, or an unhealthy act? i think it's highly contextual.

RedMagic1 -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:07:10 PM)
Yeah. Not only is this getting really bad, I stand corrected about a certain poster not being a jackass. Wrong again. There's a wonderful book, The Red Orchestra, that documents underground resistance to the Nazis. The Jews didn't go quietly to the gas chambers. Once someone starts equating the topic of a thread to Nazi Germany, it's time to close up shop.

StrangerinBlack -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:09:24 PM)
ownedgirlie: We are not talking about what is sane or insane. That would be determined on a case by case basis, and the concept of sanity itself is questionable. We are talking about behaviors that are healthy, or unhealthy. That is, if left alone would the individual in question be able to take care of themselves without causing damage or distress. I would think that commiting a Frodo Baggins would qualify as damage, and could not imagine it not leading to eventual distress. I would think that the long term physical and psychological concequences of removing your own penis (assuming you lived), would be horrible beyond imagining.

hisannabelle -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:10:55 PM)
physically speaking, that's why most people get professionals to do it for them.

StrangerinBlack -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:11:13 PM)
"i think it's highly contextual. " Really, how about you list me any context where feeding your gonads to someone and then dying is healthy (or even a finger and not dying). We can go from there. Because I have a pretty long list of contexts for the "con" side. "physically speaking, that's why most people get professionals to do it for them. " Thats not the circumstances were discussing here though.....

hisannabelle -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:12:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack "i think it's highly contextual. " Really, how about you list me any context where feeding your gonads to someone and then dying is healthy (or even a finger and not dying). We can go from there. Because I have a pretty long list of contexts for the "con" side. read the last ten pages of this eleven page thread. read celeste's post. or...you know...agree to disagree. because if you haven't gotten it by now, there's not a whole lot i can help you with.

StrangerinBlack -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:15:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hisannabelle quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack "i think it's highly contextual. " Really, how about you list me any context where feeding your gonads to someone and then dying is healthy (or even a finger and not dying). We can go from there. Because I have a pretty long list of contexts for the "con" side. read the last ten pages of this eleven page thread. read celeste's post. or...you know...agree to disagree. because if you haven't gotten it by now, there's not a whole lot i can help you with. I'm sorry, you responded to part of my ideas and ignored the rest, then tried to talk about a bunch of things not even related to the discussion. Then when I asked you a specific question, you back out by trying to reference this whole thread? I dont think you are reading this thread very closely to be honest. Now, name 1 context, or admit your not having the same conversation please. edit: you seem to be very defensive about topics not even being raised here, you also just ignored the rest of the highly relavant questions I aked you a second ago. I would be willing to agree to disagree, if you would be willing to have a specific conversation and take a specific stance.

variation30 -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:18:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack Really, how about you list me any context where feeding your gonads to someone and then dying is healthy (or even a finger and not dying). We can go from there. Because I have a pretty long list of contexts for the "con" side. so it is only ok to do healthy acts to yourself and consenting adults?

hisannabelle -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:19:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: variation30 quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack Really, how about you list me any context where feeding your gonads to someone and then dying is healthy (or even a finger and not dying). We can go from there. Because I have a pretty long list of contexts for the "con" side. so it is only ok to do healthy acts to yourself and consenting adults? and only his definition of healthy. :)

StrangerinBlack -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:20:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: variation30 quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack Really, how about you list me any context where feeding your gonads to someone and then dying is healthy (or even a finger and not dying). We can go from there. Because I have a pretty long list of contexts for the "con" side. so it is only ok to do healthy acts to yourself and consenting adults? Please listen more closely, we are trying to define if these acts are healthy or not. Not trying to say what is ok to do. I specifically stated that on my point summary just a few posts ago, so why are you even asking me this?

StrangerinBlack -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:21:09 PM)
quote: and only his definition of healthy. :) Thats a lie. I asked you to provide any definition of healthy that covers this, even your own (which you have failed to do). Please stop trying to twist my words and intentions. When ANYONE provides such a definition, I will be happy to discuss and even consider the situation by its values and not just my own .

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