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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 2:00:50 PM   
StrangerinBlack


Posts: 44
Joined: 4/27/2008
Status: offline 		"the topic that should be discussed is what value being healthy really has."

Um. That's kinda of a nonsense question. Whatever your personally definition, health includes things that are, by their very nature, needed or beneficial. Lets look at plants for an example. A healthy plant is in an optimal environment, H20, 02, good soil, everything it needs. If the plant does not get enough of these healthy things, it withers and dies. What is the benefit of healthy things to the plant? Seems obvious unless you don't value being alive, uninjured, and growing.

"as we all should know, all values are subjective to the individual."

That's actually not true. You can't talk your way out of obeying gravity, even if it is an abstract concept.

" now I'm not speaking about mere aesthetics, I'm speaking about everything. I have a value on my health. I may or may not value it more than smoking regularly. I may or may not value it more than jumping out of an airplane. I may or may not value it enough to buy a more expensive, but safer car. I also have a value on my body. for instance, one of my kidney's has a price, as does one of my testicles, as does my blood, etc. these values are, of course, not limited to currency. I may, for instance, value a life of hard drinking over my liver, listening to loud music over my eardrums, or I may even value an experience of having my body consumed by another person over keeping that body part on my person, as it were. "

Repeated studies have shown that people are willing to take such risks as long as the consequences for their actions are abstract and over a period of time. Never underestimate the power of denial. Now that being said, what is the potential reward of cutting off a body part that makes if more valuable than health?

"the issue at hand is whether or not we think individuals can do with their mind and body what they will. "

No its not. People can always do what they want (including the people who will act against them)

"to this question you either answer yes or no. there are no other answers. "

I wish I could break down the great philosophical questions of the ages down into "yes, and no". But I don't think things are that simple. (Should a person who accidentally consumes a drug be allowed to kill themselves if they decide in the moment to do so?)

"if yes, then you(plural) should have no problem letting another individual engage in unhealthy (and perhaps unwise) decisions as it is their body and their life and they should be free to do with them what they desire. "

If you feel this way, please please never have kids.


"if you answer no, then that logic will lead to some rather interesting ends - because if you do not own your mind and body, who does? "

You seem be be implying that you are an island with no responsibility or effect on or by others. I think we owe each other a debt of mutual enrichment. That is, that we should strive to be as positive and healing an influence on others as we can, without trying to control them or limit their freedom. No one has good judgement all the time, thats important to look at too.

(in reply to phoenixrising43)
Profile   Post #: 281
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 2:26:52 PM   
DominantJenny


Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

" now I'm not speaking about mere aesthetics, I'm speaking about everything. I have a value on my health. I may or may not value it more than smoking regularly. I may or may not value it more than jumping out of an airplane. I may or may not value it enough to buy a more expensive, but safer car. I also have a value on my body. for instance, one of my kidney's has a price, as does one of my testicles, as does my blood, etc. these values are, of course, not limited to currency. I may, for instance, value a life of hard drinking over my liver, listening to loud music over my eardrums, or I may even value an experience of having my body consumed by another person over keeping that body part on my person, as it were. "

Repeated studies have shown that people are willing to take such risks as long as the consequences for their actions are abstract and over a period of time. Never underestimate the power of denial. Now that being said, what is the potential reward of cutting off a body part that makes if more valuable than health?


I am answering one very specific question here, the one you asked above.
Facilitating/creating a highly emotionally and/or spiritually and/or physically satisfying experience. (And the value of that experience to the individual is something that ONLY the individual can actually know. You CANNOT know whether it is more valuable to him/her than the sacrifice s/he made for it until you can actually get inside his/her mind; it's simply impossible with current technology/science/human ability.)
That's one example, but it actually covers any number of discrete situations, from religious communion to bonding (similar to blood brothers) to physically dangerous adrenalin-rush-based activities.
Note that cutting off a body part may or may not have significant impact on one's functionality (ask some guys missing fingertips how much it hinders them...the answer will be that it doesn't in most cases). So, compared to that level of "unhealthiness", the reward-outweighs-the-damage ratio tilts dramatically.

(in reply to StrangerinBlack)
Profile   Post #: 282
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 4:14:55 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		At what point do we get to decide someone else's level of sanity/health? Is there any way to tell that that fireman wants to -be- a fireman because xhe loves fire and wants to bathe in it unless xhe tells us (of course, if xhe told us that, xhe'd never get to -be- a fireman, because someone would feel compelled to protect hir)? Is there any way to tell that that police officer wants to be a police officer so xhe can feel someone's fear when xhe points a gun in the person's diretion? How many psychological tests will let us get inside a person's head -- really inside, where the stuff they won't tell anyone lies?

On the other end of the coin, if someone approached you and said "I want to be a fireman because I want to sacrifice my life for someone else's protection.", would that be a healthy or unhealthy reason? Anyone who chose a dangerous job or participated in an extreme sport or chose an extreme modification of their body could be subject to being ruled "unhealthy" -- since the person -clearly- has a diminished self-respect, as evidenced by their willingness to sacrifice life or limb for the -idea- of their choice, they cannot possibly be "healthy". Clearly, they have been brainwashed and coerced by someone into choosing to take such a self-deprecating action....

If we judge 'health' by the level of our will to live vs. our willingness to sacrifice our life for an idea, say farewell to our firemen, our relief-aid workers, our policemen, our soldiers... all of these require a level of suspension of ego and an acknowledgement that one may die or be maimed for the benefit of another. All of them risk loss of life or limb. Either we get to choose or we don't... We get to set our own value on our lives or we don't...

Pardon me, your slip (conditioning) is showing.

My boundary for myself and any whom I take responsibility for in crossing the line is 'informed consent' -- if I am conscious, and I have been fully informed about the decision I am making, I am not drugged or drunk, or otherwise chemically altered, I indicate that I understand what I've been told, and agree to do it, then I've given consent, dammit, and nobody has the right to second guess that.

When I have shed this physical form through whatever mechanism, and graduated to become an Old One, it is my hope that someone who appreciates me will grok this body in fullness... and yes, I realize that we're all just talking to hear ourselves talk at this point, and that nobody is changing anyone else's pre-conditioned mind... so be it.

Firestorm

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 7/1/2008 4:18:53 PM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to DominantJenny)
Profile   Post #: 283
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 4:15:49 PM   
TheBanshee


Posts: 403
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline 		Cannibalism - wrong
Suicide - wrong
It just is.  Question my tolerance of people who think its just so incredibly deep and meaningful and how I just don't understand the depth of their submission.  They're flakes and they need help.  There's a point where things get unhealthy - there may be a grey area for a while but this is NOT grey.  

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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 5:54:28 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBanshee

Cannibalism - wrong
Suicide - wrong
It just is.  Question my tolerance of people who think its just so incredibly deep and meaningful and how I just don't understand the depth of their submission.  They're flakes and they need help.  There's a point where things get unhealthy - there may be a grey area for a while but this is NOT grey.  


Just who the hell do you think you are mking such a global statement? I'll wager that if you spend enough time day and night with people suffering chronic pain and for some death wouold be a blessed relief from a cruel torturous life. How dare you deny the right of a mercinary wounded and unable to be transported to help, the right to either die by his or her own hand or by the hand of a comrad rather then be left and vbe captured and tortured. I dont give a flying fruit fingle fart what your age or circumstances, How dare you make such statements! It may be your conditioning or religious belief, but at least state it as such......

Iron Bear
(Incorrigible, irrepressible and irreverent)
Master of Bruin Cottage
(A Victorian Lifestyle poly home)

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

Omar Khayyam 1048 CE to 1123 CE (Persian Mathematician, Scientist, Astronomer, Philosopher & Poet).

(in reply to TheBanshee)
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RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 7:12:56 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBanshee

Cannibalism - wrong
Suicide - wrong
It just is.  Question my tolerance of people who think its just so incredibly deep and meaningful and how I just don't understand the depth of their submission.  They're flakes and they need help.  There's a point where things get unhealthy - there may be a grey area for a while but this is NOT grey.  


I tend to believe this is more less the social group Norm of thinking when it comes to these issues.   Yes, people will always judge other people.  Think this is a fact of life.   Yes, I'm open minded about closed minds.  At times makes people a little more solid and stable in their own personal character.   I have to at least be OPEN minded to say, it's ok for some people to have solid closed minds. 

Not everybody has to have an open mind about anything and everything in the world. 

I can relate to certain things such as suicide and Cannibalism, because I have explored things in thought.   Just because I understand something, does not mean I myself endorse or accept it. 

I think I mentioned serveral times in my own posts, that I do not approve of it.  I am open minded enough to have taken things into consideration. Such as the views and thoughts of other people.

With that said, yes, I would try to stop somebody from killing themselves.  Unless, they were in so much pain and suffering that the human thing to do, is to end their life.  I do have exceptions.  However, these are my own personal exceptions based in some form of personal ethics and morality of my own.

Same thing in regards to Cannibalism.  Something I think I would personally put and end to, unless it was an absolute need to survive.  Crashed Air plan on a frozen mountain top type of stuff.   Again, I do have personal exceptions based on some form of ethical and personal morality.

I honest don't think I'm being all too insane or unreasonable.  I'm pretty open minded person.  However, I do have limits.   I realize not everybody thinks or feels the same way as I do.


(in reply to TheBanshee)
Profile   Post #: 286
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 7:56:38 PM   
TheBanshee


Posts: 403
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline 		The context of the conversation was as ritual, or within (or someone's variation) of BDSM, or as a fetish cannibalism, amputation, or suicide.  As I do have an open mind - I wouldn't presume to pass judgement on those who have recently crash landed in the Andes.  This also has nothing to do with euthanasia and those with terminal illness and this is not a "dying with dignity" conversation.  Geez

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)
Profile   Post #: 287
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 8:22:50 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBanshee

The context of the conversation was as ritual, or within (or someone's variation) of BDSM, or as a fetish cannibalism, amputation, or suicide.  As I do have an open mind - I wouldn't presume to pass judgement on those who have recently crash landed in the Andes.  This also has nothing to do with euthanasia and those with terminal illness and this is not a "dying with dignity" conversation.  Geez


Then perhaps it would have been wiser to have posted a short comment placing your observations in that context and that it was just your opinion. I for one find it difficult to read people's minds unless I have a close personal contact with them. I may be an empath but there are linits and being a pedantic and very literal old fart, I respond to the written word and do not bother with the intricacies of what the author may have been thinking. (Unless I'm being paid to of course).. My terse comment to you was based on being a chronic pain sufferer and having ran my own merc crew for many years, thus I spoke from the heart, nothing personal.

Iron Bear
(Incorrigible, irrepressible and irreverent)
Master of Bruin Cottage
(A Victorian Lifestyle poly home)

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

Omar Khayyam 1048 CE to 1123 CE (Persian Mathematician, Scientist, Astronomer, Philosopher & Poet).

< Message edited by IronBear -- 7/1/2008 8:26:26 PM >

(in reply to TheBanshee)
Profile   Post #: 288
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 8:42:27 PM   
joyinslavery


Posts: 955
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline 		Destructive?  Who cares?

Unhealthy?  Day one. 

Have fun. 

_____________________________

"...we must learn, each one of us, that the world was not made for us, and that, however beautiful may be the things we crave, Fate may nevertheless forbid them."
-Bertrand Russell

Mainstream...The New Alternative

*Beware of dog*

(in reply to WhatUrSeeking)
Profile   Post #: 289
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 9:31:02 PM   
SurrenderForMe


Posts: 229
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Whether it's sex or BDSM, if the interaction does not fulfill a positive need it is unhealthy. 
I can beat someone until they scream, or any number of intense things, but only if it is in some way providing a benefit, including catharsis.
JMO

I don't think the post directly below me has anything to do with my post.  You might want to cut an paste something to let us know who you are talking to.


< Message edited by SurrenderForMe -- 7/1/2008 9:53:33 PM >

(in reply to WhatUrSeeking)
Profile   Post #: 290
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 9:38:15 PM   
StrangerinBlack


Posts: 44
Joined: 4/27/2008
Status: offline 		"I am answering one very specific question here, the one you asked above. "

Cool, we will keep it to this specific topic here then.

"Facilitating/creating a highly emotionally and/or spiritually and/or physically satisfying experience. "

Those are all noble goals, and I would not seek to prevent someone from having an experience that lead to personal growth, even if there were an element of risk involved. That being said, all of those terms are abstract. Could you please specifically tell me how the acts in either of the two stories discussed (which involved larger body parts than a finger tip and were clearly impairing (one guy died, lets remember) could have possibly in any way you can imagine facilitated a emotionally or spiritually or physically satisfying experience?) I can't but maybe you have a broader view on the matter.

"(And the value of that experience to the individual is something that ONLY the individual can actually know. You CANNOT know whether it is more valuable to him/her than the sacrifice s/he made for it until you can actually get inside his/her mind; it's simply impossible with current technology/science/human ability.)"

Ok, but lots of times when you ask a person LATER, who somehow seriously harmed their own bodies (or tried to kill themselves)they say that they regret those attempts and were extremely grateful for intervention (or at least encouragement not to). You are right, we can't know or judge the significance of any act to any individual. But I question whether any spiritual act has enough reward to merit the acts in question. I tend to think of spirituality as a constant process, not as a single event that somehow leaves you forever improved. But that's just me. We don't have to judge people in order to try and help them by our own system of values. If I see my mother unconscious on the floor, I am going to call the ambulance, even if she were having the most amazing spiritual fulfillment of her life. Maybe I'm just selfish.

"That's one example, but it actually covers any number of discrete situations, from religious communion to bonding (similar to blood brothers) to physically dangerous adrenalin-rush-based activities. "

The level of actual danger between these acts and the ones we were discussing is really not comparable. In those events, every attempt is made to make the experience as safe as possible. We were talking about acts that involve a severe personal disregard for safety or consequences.

"Note that cutting off a body part may or may not have significant impact on one's functionality (ask some guys missing fingertips how much it hinders them...the answer will be that it doesn't in most cases). So, compared to that level of "unhealthiness", the reward-outweighs-the-damage ratio tilts dramatically."

Ok, in this (much milder) scenario, you still have not in any way explained how ANY benefit is generated, let alone enough to make it "worth it". Maybe it could be, but could someone please explain how?


(in reply to joyinslavery)
Profile   Post #: 291
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 9:48:11 PM   
StrangerinBlack


Posts: 44
Joined: 4/27/2008
Status: offline 		"At what point do we get to decide someone else's level of sanity/health? "

At the point at which they become an obvious danger to themselves or others. (or at least unable to meet basic life needs)

"Is there any way to tell that that fireman wants to -be- a fireman because xhe loves fire and wants to bathe in it unless xhe tells us (of course, if xhe told us that, xhe'd never get to -be- a fireman, because someone would feel compelled to protect hir)? Is there any way to tell that that police officer wants to be a police officer so xhe can feel someone's fear when xhe points a gun in the person's diretion? How many psychological tests will let us get inside a person's head -- really inside, where the stuff they won't tell anyone lies?"

No one can know another truly. I mean, that like one of the basic realizations of most major spiritual system. So, how is that in any way relevant to this discussion? 

"On the other end of the coin, if someone approached you and said "I want to be a fireman because I want to sacrifice my life for someone else's protection.", would that be a healthy or unhealthy reason?"

Speaking from only a personal standpoint, all kinds of red flags go up when i hear "I want to sacrifice my life because"

"Anyone who chose a dangerous job or participated in an extreme sport or chose an extreme modification of their body could be subject to being ruled "unhealthy""

So?

"-- since the person -clearly- has a diminished self-respect, as evidenced by their willingness to sacrifice life or limb for the -idea- of their choice, they cannot possibly be "healthy". Clearly, they have been brainwashed and coerced by someone into choosing to take such a self-deprecating action.... "

I cant find this to be sensical, clever, or funny, so maybe you can tell me what your getting at.


"If we judge 'health' by the level of our will to live vs. our willingness to sacrifice our life for an idea, say farewell to our firemen, our relief-aid workers, our policemen, our soldiers... all of these require a level of suspension of ego and an acknowledgement that one may die or be maimed for the benefit of another. All of them risk loss of life or limb. Either we get to choose or we don't... We get to set our own value on our lives or we don't... "

You know, I'm pretty sure that you can do those things well without being willing to sacrifice your life for anything. I mean, most of the time when someone dies saving another person, they try to save themselves afterword.


"My boundary for myself and any whom I take responsibility for in crossing the line is 'informed consent' -- if I am conscious, and I have been fully informed about the decision I am making, I am not drugged or drunk, or otherwise chemically altered, I indicate that I understand what I've been told, and agree to do it, then I've given consent, dammit, and nobody has the right to second guess that. "

Thats odd, I think you just told me that we can never know another. And now you presume to be able to interpret consent from another person regarding a potentially lethal act? You can know that they are totally in their "normal" mind and know the full consequences of the actions that will occur. Wow, that's a lot of responsibility. I hope you have a good lawyer.


"When I have shed this physical form through whatever mechanism, and graduated to become an Old One, "

Or you just die and its over. (Another one of those big mysteries)

"it is my hope that someone who appreciates me will grok this body in fullness."..

If your going to plagiarize SISL , could you at least get what he way saying right?

a"nd yes, I realize that we're all just talking to hear ourselves talk at this point, and that nobody is changing anyone else's pre-conditioned mind... so be it. "

Yea, you really cant read my intentions at all.


(in reply to StrangerinBlack)
Profile   Post #: 292
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/1/2008 10:28:56 PM   
SurrenderForMe


Posts: 229
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		"At what point do we get to decide someone else's level of sanity/health? "

Every time we interact with them.  Are we qualified is the depressing follow up.  If we are honest, we admit we are doing the best we can, whether we have a psychology degree or not.  I have met some seriously fucked up psychologists doing what, I in my laymans mind thought was, lol, seriously fucked up.  I have met good psychologists in the scene, just to balance that comment.

Trying to figure out what is in someones mind or subconscious is all but impossible.  We can't even know ourselves completely.  All I do is go with my instincts, my experience, my common sense and try to make things work out the best they can.  If someone gives me the impression or feel of something off, I ask.  If the answer doesn't satisfy me, I don't interact.  It is all I can do.

I have a strong reaction to abuse.  I can also watch someone beaten until they bleed and going with my perception, not feel it is wrong.  I am not perfect, but I have a lot of experience and have caught scenes by other people and myself, going out of control.  In both sets of circumstance, I stopped the action and checked in.

My most memorable experiences were a play party with a staged catfight.  Edgeplay level, abusive, threatening, demeaning language between two women who proceeded to beat the crap oot of each other.  In a room full of experienced people, no one but me (that I know of) noticed anything wrong.  I did not know the women.  They lost it and were trying to kill each other.  I went to the hostess and she said I was imagining it.  I gave up, embarassed myself, and walked into the middle of the fight.  I pulled the women apart and after a few moments of trying to beat the crap out of me, they stopped.  They then thanked me for stopping an out of control scene.  I was thanked several times by one of the women.  Were they healthy?  I have no clue.  There scene was planned for weeks.  They were a poly group and had not resolved their issues prior to the scene.  They were all holding each other last I saw.

I was doing a heavy scene at a club in SF.  It was a hard whipping scene with someone who zones (trances, goes away, whatever).  I took him to a massive high.  He was severely bruised over the next week.  I was later informed by someone that the people there, thought I had drugs infused into my whips.  This person had spent the rest of the evening justifying and explaining to these "experienced" people about my partner.  Why didn't some bad ass top just ask?  A room full of people who agreed that something must be wrong and no one with the balls to ask a 5'2" woman in freaking stilletos ( can't kill people in those unless they lay down) what was happening.  One exception to the group was the guy who was flirting with me while the group therapy happened downstairs.  He, of course, thought the scene was hot.  Strangely enough, after the people at that party had had it explained to them, my scenes were considered hot on the rare occassion I played in public.

I did a scene with someone who swore he was into humiliation.  I was negligent and did not get details.  A friend and I were bored so we met up with him and played.  First we went to a restaurant, low level stuff, nipple clamps over the tie, teasing under the table.  Then we took him to a gay club and danced with him.  Again low level (for us).  We then went back to his place and had him strip, had him chase a ball, wrote insults in lipstick.  The lipstick led to him bursting into tears and losing it.  I spent eight hours talking him down, learning his experience (none) and bringing him back up.  I crashed for a few hours, woke up and then proceeded to do midlevel humiliation, which he enjoyed immensely, because I corrected my mistake ( one I have not repeated, but I'm sure there will always be something I can overlook, over or under estimate or just not know ) of finding out who he was and what he needed.  I brought him back up and he was insanely interested in getting together again. 
Was he healthy?  In my opinion, yes.  What did I learn?  Everyone is lying until I find out by trial and error, testing and teasing, whether I believe x is something they can handle. 

Informed consent is crap.  I have met people who are self destructive.  They can consent all they want.  I will not cooperate.  I have been with slaves.  First consent is all I get.  From there, I am responsible.  I have to decide if something will damage them.  I have to live with the results.

What does all that mean.  I have judgement.  Sometimes good, occassionally bad.  I am human.  I work to correct what I can and live with what I can't.  I have met really screwed up, abusive people in the scene.  I have heard the argument for interfering and not.  I do what I feel is right.  I do the best I can with the brain I have.  The end.

< Message edited by SurrenderForMe -- 7/1/2008 10:30:45 PM >

(in reply to StrangerinBlack)
Profile   Post #: 293
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/2/2008 2:58:13 AM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

Ok, in this (much milder) scenario, you still have not in any way explained how ANY benefit is generated, let alone enough to make it "worth it". Maybe it could be, but could someone please explain how?


Question: Why do people have to explain the benefit of something they want to do to people who don't already "get it"? Why can't people just do what they want to do, and not be hindered?

(in reply to StrangerinBlack)
Profile   Post #: 294
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/2/2008 6:14:56 AM   
DominantJenny


Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline 		Well said.

(in reply to SurrenderForMe)
Profile   Post #: 295
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/2/2008 6:50:25 AM   
DominantJenny


Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

"Facilitating/creating a highly emotionally and/or spiritually and/or physically satisfying experience. "

Those are all noble goals, and I would not seek to prevent someone from having an experience that lead to personal growth, even if there were an element of risk involved. That being said, all of those terms are abstract. Could you please specifically tell me how the acts in either of the two stories discussed (which involved larger body parts than a finger tip and were clearly impairing (one guy died, lets remember) could have possibly in any way you can imagine facilitated a emotionally or spiritually or physically satisfying experience?) I can't but maybe you have a broader view on the matter.

"(And the value of that experience to the individual is something that ONLY the individual can actually know. You CANNOT know whether it is more valuable to him/her than the sacrifice s/he made for it until you can actually get inside his/her mind; it's simply impossible with current technology/science/human ability.)"

Ok, but lots of times when you ask a person LATER, who somehow seriously harmed their own bodies (or tried to kill themselves)they say that they regret those attempts and were extremely grateful for intervention (or at least encouragement not to). You are right, we can't know or judge the significance of any act to any individual. But I question whether any spiritual act has enough reward to merit the acts in question. I tend to think of spirituality as a constant process, not as a single event that somehow leaves you forever improved. But that's just me. We don't have to judge people in order to try and help them by our own system of values. If I see my mother unconscious on the floor, I am going to call the ambulance, even if she were having the most amazing spiritual fulfillment of her life. Maybe I'm just selfish.

"That's one example, but it actually covers any number of discrete situations, from religious communion to bonding (similar to blood brothers) to physically dangerous adrenalin-rush-based activities. "

The level of actual danger between these acts and the ones we were discussing is really not comparable. In those events, every attempt is made to make the experience as safe as possible. We were talking about acts that involve a severe personal disregard for safety or consequences.

"Note that cutting off a body part may or may not have significant impact on one's functionality (ask some guys missing fingertips how much it hinders them...the answer will be that it doesn't in most cases). So, compared to that level of "unhealthiness", the reward-outweighs-the-damage ratio tilts dramatically."

Ok, in this (much milder) scenario, you still have not in any way explained how ANY benefit is generated, let alone enough to make it "worth it". Maybe it could be, but could someone please explain how?


Yes, I do have a broader view. I can imagine that, for some person (NOT saying it WAS the case in the examples, but it could have been), that by dying and being consumed by someone that person loved and wished to bond with as intensely as possible, the person truly felt and believed that he achieved that goal, right up through death and beyond that, no one knows what happens and speculation is pointless. I can imagine this because I have been deeply in love and bonded to someone, and have had moments where I have wished that I could literally become one with him...and, in fact, have worked out a way to my satisfaction to do that...after we both die, we will be cremated, and our ashes ultimately mixed together. Now, I have every desire for both my partner and I to live as long as possible...but I am well aware that other people do not experience life in the same way I do.

Yes, that's true. AND lots of times when you ask the person later, they say they'd do it again in a heartbeat. If they made the wrong decision, it is for them to learn from it (assuming they didn't die in the attempt), not for you to ASSUME they will regret it later. It is, fundamentally, their life and their decision to make. That's the point.
You are correct that "that's just you"; other people believe differently and you have no right to force your belief (equally unprovable) on them. Period. (Note that I am not saying anything about what I believe, because it is irrelevant.)
You can try to help someone by your own system of values; , but when they say, "I do NOT share your system of values and ask that you cease approaching me from that and respect MY system of values", by proceeding anyway, are you not violating their system of values and, by extension, themselves? If someone whose system of values is such that (creating a sample from your picture) having long hair as a male is a sign of insanity, is it okay for them to insist on shaving your head, even after you expressly tell them that you do not share that value?
I agree that if you have nothing to go on (ie. your mother lies unconscious on the floor), you have to operate from your own knowledge and experience, however, if your mother left a note, witnessed to show she was of sound mind when she wrote it, detailing what was supposed and not supposed to happen (ie. she would be unconscious for approximately 2 hours) etc, would you still call that ambulance? In that case, not only are you selfish, but I would say that you are violating her fundamental right to self-determination.

Are we? Now, I didn't read anything in the OP that said the woman didn't tend herself properly after her amputations or engage in proper preparations beforehand to minimize her current risk of death. And it is not a disregard for consequences when death IS the desired consequence. You may continue to insist that death cannot be a desired consequence, but you will continue to be speaking only from your personal point of view. You are free to hold that view. You are not free to force it on others unless you are willing to allow them to force their personal point of view right back on you.

(I am exceedingly annoyed that this is edging out of keeping me the hell out of this damned conversation at this point. I may not reply to your response. Do not assume anything other than that I have better things to do with my time than get involved in pointless arguments that I don't really have any personal investment in. I do not enjoy debate for the sake of debate.)

I HAVE demonstrated that a benefit, albeit an internal personal/subjective one, can make it "worth it" to the individual, generally and now specifically. As long as it can be a benefit to THAT PERSON, it doesn't matter that a similar benefit could not be found for you, personally. Think outside your own box...that doesn't mean you have to leave your box, just that it would be nice if you refrained from suggesting that anyone NOT in your box should be, whether they want to be or not, which is what you seem to be doing.

(in reply to StrangerinBlack)
Profile   Post #: 296
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/2/2008 11:24:12 AM   
StrangerinBlack


Posts: 44
Joined: 4/27/2008
Status: offline 		"Why do people have to explain the benefit of something they want to do to people who don't already "get it"? Why can't people just do what they want to do, and not be hindered? "

No on has to do anything. People have made claims, so I have asked them to substantiate them.  People have claimed that an act of self-mutilation might have some sort of abstract spiritual benefit. When I have ask them how this could possibly be, they have nothing to say. I am not asking anyone to explain or defend their own spiritual practices. More asking why they automatically assume that any act such as this must have a mind blowing spiritual component.

(in reply to DominantJenny)
Profile   Post #: 297
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/2/2008 11:42:25 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

No on has to do anything. People have made claims, so I have asked them to substantiate them.  People have claimed that an act of self-mutilation might have some sort of abstract spiritual benefit. When I have ask them how this could possibly be, they have nothing to say. I am not asking anyone to explain or defend their own spiritual practices. More asking why they automatically assume that any act such as this must have a mind blowing spiritual component.


Not "must"... "may"... and not automatically, but nobody here has enough background or any direct knowledge of the people involved, to say that there was or was -not- a spiritual aspect, so there may very well have been one, and it is good that that was considered as one possibility. There is no way to substantiate such a thing to a person who does not share the spiritual beliefs that would allow them to accept that, for some, this very well -may- be a spiritual process.

I have several tattoos, some piercings, and a notch carved into my flesh. All of these were obtained during spiritual rituals according to the path I follow. Several of them are noticeable, and are meant to be, because they mark me as clergy on my path, for anyone who shares our path to see. There is nothing to say that the permanent markings required as clergy on my path might not mean a priest choosing to give up a digit (or other body part). I am also strongly moved by various forms of ritual cannibalism, including the Transmutation of the Host and Wine (capitalized because this is the name of the actual ceremony) in Catholic communion ceremonies. Spiritual capacity depends on a willingness to recognize/accept that spirituality can infuse just about any activity... it doesn't -have- to... but it -can-, if that's where the person is focused.

We don't know enough about this situation to know whether the people involved were spiritually motivated or not. We don't know the people, don't know their mindset, and don't know why they involved themselves in the process. Because we don't know, all possible explanations must be considered until refuted by fact... and since we can never know the fact of where these people were spiritually or mentally at the time that this occurred, it must remain an open question and one of the options for why things like this might occur in healthy, rational human beings.


Firestorm


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to StrangerinBlack)
Profile   Post #: 298
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/2/2008 11:57:39 AM   
StrangerinBlack


Posts: 44
Joined: 4/27/2008
Status: offline 		"Yes, I do have a broader view."

No, you have a confused, vague, and seemingly inconsistent view.

"I can imagine that, for some person (NOT saying it WAS the case in the examples, but it could have been), that by dying and being consumed by someone that person loved and wished to bond with as intensely as possible, the person truly felt and believed that he achieved that goal, right up through death and beyond that, no one knows what happens and speculation is pointless."

Ok, but were talking about people who were not already dying, we were talking ABOUT the examples or RELATED situations, so while I respect your scenario, I fail to see how it applies in any way to the conversation we were having.

"I can imagine this because I have been deeply in love and bonded to someone, and have had moments where I have wished that I could literally become one with him...and, in fact, have worked out a way to my satisfaction to do that...after we both die, we will be cremated, and our ashes ultimately mixed together. "

That's very romantic (no joke). On the other hand, I can think of a lot of ways to become "one" with your lover that do not result in him being permanently disabled as a result. I fail to see the need for one person to come to harm, in order for the joining to have value.

"Now, I have every desire for both my partner and I to live as long as possible...but I am well aware that other people do not experience life in the same way I do. "

Actually, most people who have not undergone systematic abuse or severe tragedy tend to feel the same way. Personally I call this "healthy".


"Yes, that's true. AND lots of times when you ask the person later, they say they'd do it again in a heartbeat."

I would like for anyone to find examples of people who have undergone self-mutilation and feel the way you describe. Maybe they are out there, but somehow I don't think so.

" If they made the wrong decision, it is for them to learn from it (assuming they didn't die in the attempt), not for you to ASSUME they will regret it later. It is, fundamentally, their life and their decision to make. That's the point. "

So you are saying that you personally would never intervene in any self-destructive act committed by anyone? You see, if you are right, you save their life, if you are wrong, they can always try again.

"You are correct that "that's just you"; other people believe differently and you have no right to force your belief (equally unprovable) on them. Period. (Note that I am not saying anything about what I believe, because it is irrelevant.) "

Excuse me? Its ok for you to say what "you believe", but when I describe my own feelings I am somehow "forcing" my beliefs upon others. I don't get it.


"You can try to help someone by your own system of values; , but when they say, "I do NOT share your system of values and ask that you cease approaching me from that and respect MY system of values", by proceeding anyway, are you not violating their system of values and, by extension, themselves?"

This in no way reflects what we were actually talking about. I have not once said that I think it is OK to physically stop someone from doing anything (although I would personally). We are talking about whether a desire is healthy/spiritual not about what should be allowed (that has been said about 5 times by now by me, please learn to read before responding). You have yet to provide any way in which this might apply to the conversation at hand.

"If someone whose system of values is such that (creating a sample from your picture) having long hair as a male is a sign of insanity, is it okay for them to insist on shaving your head, even after you expressly tell them that you do not share that value? "

If you live in a universe where having long hair, and wanting to cut off your penis and feed it to a stranger, are in any way the same realm of act, please let me in, I'm bored with this one.

"I agree that if you have nothing to go on (ie. your mother lies unconscious on the floor), you have to operate from your own knowledge and experience, however, if your mother left a note, witnessed to show she was of sound mind when she wrote it, detailing what was supposed and not supposed to happen (ie. she would be unconscious for approximately 2 hours) etc, would you still call that ambulance?"

Yes.

" In that case, not only are you selfish,"

Fuck you. You have no right to judge my love for my mother based on your personal set of standards. (I find your presumption fantastically rude and hypocritical btw)

" but I would say that you are violating her fundamental right to self-determination. "

Or maybe she shouldn't be trying to kill herself where her family will find her twitching body.


"Are we? Now, I didn't read anything in the OP that said the woman didn't tend herself properly after her amputations or engage in proper preparations beforehand to minimize her current risk of death. And it is not a disregard for consequences when death IS the desired consequence."

You have no evidence or even indication that this was an attempted suicide, so why keep acting like you know it was? Way to distort the actual topic even more.

"You may continue to insist that death cannot be a desired consequence, "

I never said that once, learn to read, your really starting to annoy me with your judgement without comprehension.

"but you will continue to be speaking only from your personal point of view."

And I'm sure you can speak for everyone.

" You are free to hold that view. You are not free to force it on others unless you are willing to allow them to force their personal point of view right back on you. "

Well, since I'm typing on an Internet forum, I really don't see as you have the right to claim I am forcing my ideas upon anyone. (unless your making up another totally hypothetical situation which has nothing to do with the conversation.)

"(I am exceedingly annoyed that this is edging out of keeping me the hell out of this damned conversation at this point. I may not reply to your response. Do not assume anything other than that I have better things to do with my time than get involved in pointless arguments that I don't really have any personal investment in. I do not enjoy debate for the sake of debate.) "

Get off your high horse please. You entered into this conversation late, misunderstood most of it, and then launched into a series of personal attacks/judgements that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. You have no right to be upset.

"I HAVE demonstrated that a benefit, albeit an internal personal/subjective one, can make it "worth it" to the individual, generally and now specifically."

NO YOU HAVE NOT. You have used the words without in any way appling them to a system of belief (real or imagined) You have talked in circles without ONCE providing a way of looking at how a dangerous self-amputation could have a spiritual component. You are wonderful at making up all kinds of vague, hypothetical situations, but in addressing the actual subject of conversation, you have FAILED.

"As long as it can be a benefit to"

WHAT BENEFIT? DESCRIBE IT ONCE. Also, I have never said that there was no possible benefit, just asked for anyone to provide a spiritual context in which a benefit would be present. No one has, you haven't, and to be honest, I don't think you can. Its because you are defending the very sick act of a (most likely) severely troubled individual. You have a serious lack of ability to separate the specific from your abstract and poorly defined ideals.

"THAT PERSON, it doesn't matter that a similar benefit could not be found for you, personally"

Or by you, or by anyone claiming that it "could maybe be possible".

. T"hink outside your own box...that doesn't mean you have to leave your box, just that it would be nice if you refrained from suggesting that anyone NOT in your box should be, whether they want to be or not, which is what you seem to be doing. "

Wow, when I invite you to explain your ideas, so that we can talk about them in a specific context. You then accuse me of being narrow minded. Your standards for logic and conversation are starting to wear my patience thin. Let me make this simple. You said that (hypothetically) cutting off your own penis (or other large body part), feeding it to a stranger (or anyone), and then dying (or just living without your cock) could have spiritual value. When I asked you to explain how this was possible or even imaginable, you fed me a page of unrelated , abstract, armchair philosophy (and insulted my love for my mother). It seems to me your frustrated because you have totally failed to in any way do what you said you would/could, and becuase you can not seperate the act of a disturbed individual from your own system of ideas,  but please do not take it out on me (your being really rude and not nice)

(in reply to StrangerinBlack)
Profile   Post #: 299
RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive - 7/2/2008 2:37:25 PM   
DominantJenny


Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline 		I see you have lost the ability to conduct yourself in a reasonable, adult manner. Goodbye.

(in reply to StrangerinBlack)
Profile   Post #: 300
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