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WhatUrSeeking -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/29/2008 1:01:02 PM)
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I decided to compile all of the comments that get at the heart of the question. I did not change people's words but I did shorten some of the responses. I have noticed that collectively we echo a few of the same themes. I know it is lengthy, but I think it is interesting to look at these answers stripped from the other tangents of this discussion thread:
“Paraphrasing Hugh Hefner: Anything sexual is O.K. as long as everyone is a consenting adult and does not commit the act with hate in their heart…
Anything sexual is O.K. as long as it is between consenting adults and it does not cause permanent mental or physical harm.”
Me
“I believe the lifestyle can become dangerous or unhealthy when people with unfinished business use the lifestyle to deal with their baggage…they themselves are not emotionally/mentally healthy…
We all have our baggage and hopefully most of us deal with them appropriately through other support systems outside of D/s but for those who don't...I worry for them.”
Isabelah
“SAFE, SANE and CONSENTUAL”
DiurnalVampire
“Exactly what is unhealthy and destructive is defined by the particular context.”
Softness.
“BDSM can become unhealthy when participants use it as an outlet to deal with unfinished business. It's really a fine line….I think for me, the thing that signals the loudest that a BDSM relationship is bordering on unhealthy or dangerous is when there is an excessive dependance on one or the other to *make* them feel a certain way…to me, whether you are on the "D" or "s" side of the equation, there needs to be a general sense of personal strength within before committing to a D/s exchange.”
Pagankinktress
“I think the answer to this question lies in what happens after in a psychological sense. If anyone is left feeling inappropriately violated (note the qualifier), then a line has been crossed.”
blackbeard519
An important question: “is my fettish going to become dibilitating?”
Crouchingtigress
“I think the #1 mistake people make when thinking about topics like this is that BDSM is somehow "special." …But mental and physical health are more fundamental…The answer to the OP's question would be the same if he asked: When does fencing become unhealthy? or, When does dating become unhealthy?… Answer: When the interaction between the two people becomes addictive, destructive, physically debilitating.”
RedMagic1
“…this is a moral question as well…
For myself.. it is in not enough that all parties mutually consent to the behavior... or that all parties must enjoy it as well. For me.. the more important question is the person better or worse for the experience.
…But then it becomes trade off… is the pleasure of the doing worth the damage that is endured. People smoke, People do drugs, People eat poorly..... They consent to these things... they even enjoy these things at some point..is the pleasure worth the damage.
One also needs to consider the immediate consequences vrs long-term consequences. Today maybe there is not alot of damage doing drug A... but tomorrow the Damage esculates.
Lastly, Does the doing of the act.... inhibit our ability to stop doing the act when we see the negative consequences as being excessive to the pleasure enjoyed. Hell.. can we even properly assess the consequences. Drugs are good example of an act that hinders our judgement and does have progessively worse effects over time. So... when we assess a situation.. is it in the Now... or is it in the Future.
These are difficult questions... and I am not so sure their is a universal answer that we can put out their. However, I do know what is appropriate for me and…
I will not associate or develop relationships with people that fall beyond what I consider to be healthy. I am not one to enjoy train wrecks... in the Now or in the Future.”
KnightofMists
“If you're making an irreversible decision to achieve a high-of-the-moment for the person you are now, you are forever altering the options the future you will have available to [yourself]. That might not be fair to future-[self] -- and, frankly, now-[self] isn't in a position to evaluate that objectively.
I would say it is critical for you to have friends who will give you unvarnished opinions. You need input from people who have loyalty to both present- and future-[self], so you don't base your decisions solely on what you feel and see right now.”
RedMagic1
“I think that there are ways that it can be psychologically unhealthy for one partner or both, as in a vanilla relationship, when one becomes almost obsessed with wanting to please the other….
It is not unusual for their to be double standards in a BDSM relationship…. If you wrap up a bunch of things like this, and then have a bottom without enough of a life or a good enough self esteem, it can become a snowball rolling downhill leaving the sub feeling needy and unappreciated. If they are not mentally healthy they can begin to feel depressed, undeserving of "fair" treatment, and could even become suicidal. … We are each responsible to care for ourselves, but there are times when it is difficult to balance our own needs against the perceived needs of another… I know that I use these boards as a sanity check sometimes; a way to see what others are thinking and feeling…I would hope that if someone feels that their relationship may be becoming emotionally dangerous that they would reach out to someone - even if this is the only place they can turn.”
Chamberqueen
“Usually when it involves dead people and/or emotional/mental/physical abuse then its generally unhealthy…Society as a whole has no clue where the line should be.”
Wwwkevinww
“It is not healthy to permanently injure or disable yourself.”
StrangerinBlack
“kink is not really different from non-kink, and the sanity of kinky acts should be judged with the same criteria that one judges non-kinky acts: the motivation of the participants, and the long-term mindbody ramifications.”
RedMagic1
Responding to Red Magic1’s question: When you say something is a mental illness, do you mean it is classified as such in the DSM IV?
“That works for me. But I would say that it causes lasting impairment or dysfunction in general.
StrangerinBlack
Useful definition of psychosis: “s_-k_'s_s)A mental state caused by psychiatric or organic illness, characterized by a loss of contact with reality and an inability to think rationally. A psychotic person often behaves inappropriately and is incapable of normal social functioning.”
StrangerinBlack
(I would add that sociopathic behavior is much more dangerous than psychotic behavior. The sociopath is generally highly developed at functioning in society, but they lack the capacity to feel empathy. Thus, most serial killers are actually sociopaths not psychopaths. If you feel no remorse or empathy for the victim, in a situation most consider horrific it could be a warning sign, and it may be a good idea to talk with others you trust.)
‘With regard to unsafe wanting self mutilization, it falls under the category of things you should fantasize about, but know better for yourself and not be talked into…. Some people need to be protected from their own destructive desires, impulses.”
Wwwkevinww
“I think the permanent harm issue is big. I suppose it does matter what ones intentions are at the time….
I still think there is something to Hugh Heffner's rule of not doing something where there is hatred in the heart. Even if this does not cause long term physical or psychological damage to the other person it can not be good for the person doing it at the time.”
Me
“Perhapes there are boundaries that society as established that shouldn't be pushed. Like having sex with a six year old, and eating your girlfriends arm.”
kiwisub12
“My answer is basically one word: Perspective…
What we, in this society have identified as "healthy" and "unhealthy", are concepts we've created and measured ourselves against and lived by…. I really believe that any act can be "good" or "bad" depending on the circumstances around it…Our ideas of mental illness are just classified as illness from our society's perspective. They change over the course of time…
For me personally, "unhealthy" is a grey area and I try to create limits and boundaries as seems fit. For me those are at the abuse, and oppression of other's. It doesn't matter their age or context. But even those values, I know ultimately, are subjective to me.”
Onegoddess
“When the purpose is lost to the method, that's when it is wrong…Most 'purpose' is illusionary, transitory value that we assign to the steps we take to approach our true goal, which is growth.
If the act fails to help you and yours grow and prosper, then it is unhealthy.”
DMFParadox
“There can be no harm when there is love.”
MasterHermes
“Well that is where i would ask each person to decide for themselves what is and isnt debilitating....i think that debilitating, just as is human sexuality, is a spectrum...and we all make choices around what is debilitating, an example would be the ballet dancer who knows…that most serious ballet dancers do become crippled in their middle years...but they have the courage to follow their passion. As do boxers, astronaut's, glass blowers. These folks have some very serious data that reflect that following their passion is detrimental to their future lives—debilitating in fact—and yet they chose it, and we honor them for those choices.”
Crouchingtigress
“Each generation has thought their own standards acceptable and the standards of the past and future unacceptable, although the latter generally occurs in retrospect. Similarly, each future generation will deem their own standards to be carved in stone, and ours to be unacceptable. Nothing has remained a constant throughout human history, though some things are very common…
Seems to me that a lot of the arguments are contingent on some assumption that we can and should act on the basis of how our future selves would have found to be best upon looking back…We become the person we will be by the choices we make today…
Aswad
“My hard limits are permanent harm, lasting damage. I happen to think that BDSM consists of repeatable practices, while body modification…You still gonna be happy about it when…?
I prefer to be able to repeat pleasurable moments.”
DelilahDeb
“Any act in BDSM can be unhealthy, there is risk in any activity, nevertheless, it is important to way that risk against potential disfigurement or death…
…some people just aren't mentally healthy enough to…be involved in BDSM in any meaningful way.”
Wwwkevinww
“There truly is…little, if anything, that is inherently either good or bad, but that context and individual experience and belief play a strongly determining role in nearly every situation.”
DominantJenny
A warning: “The human mind is very good at finding excuses. Kill other people for peace, kill yourself for spirituality, cut her legs for sexuality, hate your neighbor in the name of god. We have very noble reasonings for very destructive actions of human ego.”
MasterHermes
“when people can't figure out the difference between fantasy and reality and when people are too stupid for their own good.”
Daddysliloneds
“BDSM gets really dangerous when recently released subs hit the Collarme forums.”
Lordandmaster
“Unhealthy or destructive and the use of sanity implies that one's use of or action of 'something' is and goes against a given societies norms/values/mores/culture/laws…There are no cultural universals…The mores/laws of another region may be different to us…But we are (mostly) in a civilized court-based, governed society…not only as rights but as laws for our own good…Sure, boundaries have been pushed legally…but in general, boundaries so far have proven to be a 'necessity' for any given culture by it's government or even villiage leaders.”
came4U
“…This is where SSC comes in, in our common interests. Safe = I can play, but no serious injury should/would be inflicted, Sane = I hope you or I are not cannibles, Consentual = I allow you to do this/that to me.”
came4U
“In the OP the issue is..if it is ok for them, then why not let them be? …Simple…because they are danger to themselves and to the general public… “
came4U
A warning of classic unhealthy BDSM behavior:
“I guess what I meant was the ol "I met a guy after knowing him for 38 minutes online and he beat the crap out of me and left me bleeding in a puddle of my own blood" or "Yeah, sure I have 14 psychiatrists but hey, bdsm will help me right????"
came4U
“i dont agree with SSC but i do subscribe to RISK, Risk aware concentual kink.....and to be risk aware we need to have this conversation and many others....we need to be gentle and patient with newbees as they question vehimently and probe deeply and scream violently as thier mental construct and world view becomes undone.”
Crouchingtigress
“BDSM like any other set of practices or lifrestyle becomes unhealthy and dangerous when you lose perspective and forget to make regular reality checks.”
IronBear
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