RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive

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Ialdabaoth -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 2:11:52 AM)
I'll say it again (and perhaps less eloquently than Aswad has): People should have the right to own their own bodies and their own lives. This trumps any squeamishness others might have about what they decide to do with those lives. Yes, this means that drug use, mutilation, and suicide are all personal choices. They may often have interpersonal consequences, and certainly people have a right to not be subjected to those. But if someone can indulge their various vices without involving anyone else against their will, what right is it of yours to call them "sick" or "evil" and force them to stop? And moreso, what right is it of yours to then turn around and claim immunity for the pursuit of your own vices?

hisannabelle -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 2:19:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Current DSM-IV-TR and ICD-10 criterion are sure to undergo revisions over time. - general reply & i've read maybe half of the thread - i think THIS is the biggest reason why i am hesitant to label what anyone does consensually as insane (and yes, i do believe permanent harm can be consensual). thank you for bringing this up al-aswad. from my own experience, that of many people i know with certain mental health conditions, and from talking to informally and interviewing mental health professionals, i have seen and experienced the failings and shortcomings of the dsm - so i personally am uncomfortable with those kinds of labels being applied. and from my own experience and that of many people i know, the whole issue of whether one is actually healthy enough TO consent to something is also a slippery slope. i am mentally ill, although i'm not considered (by law) mentally ill to a degree that i am not still a legal adult and able to make my own decisions. some of the decisions i've chosen do involve harm or the risk of harm (which can be permanent and physical OR psychological). does that mean i should be declared mentally incompetent? i'm financially and emotionally self-sufficient, i hold a job, i go to school full time, and i'm planning to attend graduate school. many mentally ill people i know with a much looser grip on reality than i have are not considered mentally incompetent by law (some are mental health professionals themselves), and the question of their incompetence wouldn't even be coming up in this conversation because they are not into bdsm - and yet despite the fact that i am by most standards a fairly productive member of society who is able to take care of herself despite her flaws, my decisions suddenly render me so mentally ill that i might possibly be considered a "savage" worthy of being locked up, as one poster put it. the fact is that there ARE a lot of shades of gray where mental health is concerned - far more than any current standards or labels within the medical community allow for - and those standards cannot be applied to situations like this in such a black and white manner. edited to add: and i think in many ways this is more about taboos than permanent harm. as others have mentioned, it's considered perfectly socially acceptable for one to have a skydiving hobby, despite the fact that that risks permanent harm. it's considered perfectly acceptable to get all kinds of body mods that can be very painful and constitute permanent harm and disfigurement, but just look at the kinds of extreme body mods people like to get on bmezine - it's not too far away from cutting off a finger. as far as cannibalism, personally, it's not my cup of tea, particularly if the subject is alive, but our own cultural distaste for cannibalism is just that - cultural conditioning. even mental health labels themselves ARE changeable specifically BECAUSE they arise within a specific cultural context - they are NOT absolutes. respectfully, a'ishah.

DarkVictory -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 2:22:05 AM)
My body is either mine, or it isn't. It's really that black and white. As a sane adult, no one knows better than me what is best for me. I need no parent or nanny state to control my access to my own body. This is a liberal view, because it is a view of personal liberty. We've all seen the struggle to define what exactly 'in their right mind' means. Finding the path to walk in making those decisions is critical to the individual being granted the liberty of their own body or not. For a long time, the state err'd on the side of incarceration, causing the unnecessary hospitalization of many thousands. Then we emptied out the mental hospitals and for a long time schizophrenics that were a danger to themselves and others wandered the streets. I personally find it appropriate to err on the side of liberalism, and if they are sane enough to function in society, and want to amputate, mutilate, or modify themselves, if they want to suicide, then so be it. Its not a choice I'd make for myself, but my society and my world is stronger for them having the liberty to do so for themselves.

RedMagic1 -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 3:24:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack Red: You never responded to the post where I pointed out that you misread what I wrote, I know the thread got long, but I did, here. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1971074 Even if you don't want to give me the time of day, please realize that BitaTrouble is a nationally known BDSM educator. She took the time to point out that something you said was false, and you had a defensive reaction, instead of thanking her for helping you understand this stuff better. SSC isn't the "foundation" for BDSM. You said it was. She corrected you. A topic of conversation like this puts people in one hell of a headspace. Just so you know, I Hard Limit cutting, so I won't be going to a ritual amputation anytime soon. But I believe in trying to understand people better -- and to help them understand themselves better -- instead of just jumping in their shit.

rulemylife -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 3:41:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist FR.........I really don't care what sort of sophilistic rationalization people try to come up with. When you degenerate to the point of destroying someone else's mind and body-it's time to stop. There are no "shades of grey." Some things really ARE absolutes. [sm=applause.gif]

rulemylife -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 4:15:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress aloha aswad, a pleasure to meet you, And you, crouchingtigress. quote: i think you are right about the common misconception being that there is a mental illness, and i honestly do understand it.... I'm glad to hear that. It is indeed quite understandable, but I feel like I must try to make at least some passing attempt at addressing it. As you relate from your own experience, we all start out with views that are heavily influenced by our culture, and then some of us discover that there are things we had not considered, that have not been taken into account by that culture, but which are not at all unreasonable under closer examination. While my posting has been less diplomatic than usual, I do still understand how that works and why, and I respect that. To not stand up for the minority view, however, is something that to me holds an association somewhat like the parent that shuts up and decides the kids will learn on their own when they grow up, not because they wouldn't prefer to see them skip some of the mistakes they themselves have made in groing up, but from the assumption that they will not get through to the kids. Not that I'm implying grand enlightenment or anything, merely that it's something that I believe I have devoted more time to thinking about than most. Seeing as we're dealing with adults, I thus try at length to give the benefit of the doubt in assuming that getting through is a matter of explaining properly on my part, especially since I know that even if I fail to get through, some will read without posting, and among those, some will have gained a new point of view. Certainly, my life has also taken some very unexpected turns, some related to BDSM, some not. quote: and in a way i suppose i was right, because i find myself, always going deeper, always pushing my own limits... If I may suggest: going further. Most, if not all, individuals that I hold in regard are ones who demonstrate that they are willing and able to grow. Such growth will take on very different forms from person to person. For the dedicated slave, it may be to grow ever more attuned to their role and the needs of those around them, for instance. For the priest, it may be to more fully understand the scope and ramifications of their faith. For a martial artist, to master the body. And so forth. We each explore in our own way, try to learn more, to grow. And, yes, to push our limits, rather than rest in the comfortable confines of the cage of complacency. quote: what i realized was that if i can release my attachments to how things are supposed to be....and release my addiction to being right...i can be free A most noble goal by my standards. And a path to that goal that I, too, chose to pursue. The road travelled may have been different, but the end result is the same: by letting go, I discovered not only the meaning of freedom (I've waxed lyrical at length elsewhere about how a word for that was coined back in the days when the vocabulary dealt rather exclusively with basic human needs and endeavours, such as water, shelter, food, sex, family and so forth), but also finally grasped some things I had been trying *too* hard to understand. quote: what i came up with is that love for me is asking the scary questions, wanting to see the hidden and darker parts, wanting to create a safe and sacred space where someone, a total stranger, could feel accepted for the total being he was....and for just one shining moment he could feel completely and wholy....loved. Beautifully said, and I wholly agree, although my ways of relating to people do not always rely on love. They are still reliant on dealing with a totality, however, and some form of affection. quote: thank you for your kind words....you have no idea how scared i was. I have a very good idea. While I have never cared much for whether I am disliked by total strangers, I have made some disclosures to close friends over the years that would have caused most friendships to end in that conversation. And their opinions of me do matter, even though I don't allow that to constrain me (as you said, a whole, warts and all). So I have a grasp of the fear of rejection and judgment, and think I can extrapolate that to a decent impression. And I would again like to commend you on setting aside that fear to post as you did. As to the compliments, you are cordially welcome. Health, al-Aswad. Hey Hannibal, maybe you should stop encouraging someone who is obviously deeply troubled before she does some real damage to herself.

MasterHermes -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 4:17:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth I'll say it again (and perhaps less eloquently than Aswad has): People should have the right to own their own bodies and their own lives. This trumps any squeamishness others might have about what they decide to do with those lives. Yes, this means that drug use, mutilation, and suicide are all personal choices. They may often have interpersonal consequences, and certainly people have a right to not be subjected to those. But if someone can indulge their various vices without involving anyone else against their will, what right is it of yours to call them "sick" or "evil" and force them to stop? And moreso, what right is it of yours to then turn around and claim immunity for the pursuit of your own vices? Ialdaboath, The main issue here is not a personal freedom. If you as a person want to do something to your own body , nobody really can stop you. Yes there are laws but nobody is monitoring you around the clock. The issue is the involvement of a second party. Now when this happen things change. For example somebody who is using his influence on you to make you harm or kill yourself. Or this second person is harming/killing you after taking a yes from your mouth. This is very different. It is different because once society allows this happen , it can get easily manipulated. People who have certain influence over another can manipulate them for their own benefit. A boss can send his workers to a extremely unhealthy job and say they agreed to do the job after they die. Poor can give his consent to rich to abuse him in every area of life for a little money. Cult leaders can convince masses to do abusive things to themselves and each other for the leaders own amusement or sometimes for personal gain. The list can go on, but one thing is sure the word "Yes" doesn't make everything ok. What you see as your personal freedom can turn into a chaos once other parties are involved into the situation. This is not a BDSM issue, or kink or about sexuality. "Consent is everything " has more consequences than it is already discussed in this thread. You do anything you want to do by yourself, to yourself , but dont expect people to support the cannibal who kills and eats another person then tells "but I had her consent" . Do not think we are taking your freedom away , when we say other people "you can not encourage him to kill himself". If a person does destructive things to other people or influence them for doing it themselves , he is not protected by freedom. Hermes

rulemylife -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 4:33:57 AM)
edited to add: and i think in many ways this is more about taboos than permanent harm. as others have mentioned, it's considered perfectly socially acceptable for one to have a skydiving hobby, despite the fact that that risks permanent harm. it's considered perfectly acceptable to get all kinds of body mods that can be very painful and constitute permanent harm and disfigurement, but just look at the kinds of extreme body mods people like to get on bmezine - it's not too far away from cutting off a finger. as far as cannibalism, personally, it's not my cup of tea, particularly if the subject is alive, but our own cultural distaste for cannibalism is just that - cultural conditioning. even mental health labels themselves ARE changeable specifically BECAUSE they arise within a specific cultural context - they are NOT absolutes. respectfully, a'ishah. [/quote] Yes, if I go skydiving I am taking the risk of an injury in pursuit of an adrelanine rush. There is a big difference between doing an activity with the possibility of injury and purposely injuring yourself to provide that same adrenaline rush. As socially liberal as I like to think I am, YES there ARE absolutes. To say there are not is to open the door to justify and rationalize any behavior based on one's own perceptions. PS: "particularly if the subject is alive"???????????????? "our own cultural distaste for cannibalism is just that - cultural conditioning"???????????? Do I really need to point out how insane this is?

DominantJenny -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 6:01:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterHermes quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth I'll say it again (and perhaps less eloquently than Aswad has): People should have the right to own their own bodies and their own lives. This trumps any squeamishness others might have about what they decide to do with those lives. Yes, this means that drug use, mutilation, and suicide are all personal choices. They may often have interpersonal consequences, and certainly people have a right to not be subjected to those. But if someone can indulge their various vices without involving anyone else against their will, what right is it of yours to call them "sick" or "evil" and force them to stop? And moreso, what right is it of yours to then turn around and claim immunity for the pursuit of your own vices? Ialdaboath, The main issue here is not a personal freedom. If you as a person want to do something to your own body , nobody really can stop you. Yes there are laws but nobody is monitoring you around the clock. The issue is the involvement of a second party. Now when this happen things change. For example somebody who is using his influence on you to make you harm or kill yourself. Or this second person is harming/killing you after taking a yes from your mouth. This is very different. It is different because once society allows this happen , it can get easily manipulated. People who have certain influence over another can manipulate them for their own benefit. A boss can send his workers to a extremely unhealthy job and say they agreed to do the job after they die. Poor can give his consent to rich to abuse him in every area of life for a little money. Cult leaders can convince masses to do abusive things to themselves and each other for the leaders own amusement or sometimes for personal gain. The list can go on, but one thing is sure the word "Yes" doesn't make everything ok. What you see as your personal freedom can turn into a chaos once other parties are involved into the situation. This is not a BDSM issue, or kink or about sexuality. "Consent is everything " has more consequences than it is already discussed in this thread. You do anything you want to do by yourself, to yourself , but dont expect people to support the cannibal who kills and eats another person then tells "but I had her consent" . Do not think we are taking your freedom away , when we say other people "you can not encourage him to kill himself". If a person does destructive things to other people or influence them for doing it themselves , he is not protected by freedom. Hermes In my responses, I am going with the assumption of full, knowledgable consent. It IS a tricky area, as such a thing is truly hard to verify. I believe this is the main reason that laws against even mild SM continue to exist. However, just as I don't think anyone here would deny that a person can give full, knowledgable consent to the pain of, say, a spanking. IMO and E, such consent can be given for any act by a functional adult human who is not under undue duress. This is what I mean, at least, when I talk about the importance of context, of individuals; it is the sort of thing that can only be correctly handled on a case by case basis. The stance of myself and, as I interpret it, others on this thread, is that the acts themselves are not enough to conclude insanity/instability/etc.; there must be more before it crosses the lines. It is the stance of many others that no matter what the reasoning or other signs of apparent sanity of the person, the acts themselves inherently make them insane/sick/etc.

Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:24:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack I still dont think this behavior falls under BDSM by any common standard. Care to provide a common standard for BDSM? I think people have been trying to arrive at that for ages (so they can make others conform) and failed. Health, al-Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 8:26:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth People should have the right to own their own bodies and their own lives. This trumps any squeamishness others might have about what they decide to do with those lives. That was no less eloquent. In fact, it sums up 90% of what I was saying in 2 lines. Health, al-Aswad.

hisannabelle -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 11:48:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Yes, if I go skydiving I am taking the risk of an injury in pursuit of an adrelanine rush. There is a big difference between doing an activity with the possibility of injury and purposely injuring yourself to provide that same adrenaline rush. As socially liberal as I like to think I am, YES there ARE absolutes. To say there are not is to open the door to justify and rationalize any behavior based on one's own perceptions. PS: "particularly if the subject is alive"???????????????? "our own cultural distaste for cannibalism is just that - cultural conditioning"???????????? Do I really need to point out how insane this is? you failed to acknowledge the argument about body modification. sorry, i don't see how my getting my genitals tattooed or a man having metal balls inserted in his or any other number of body modifications, from the bland to the extreme (and i'm sorry, but there are some that i would personally consider no less extreme than losing a finger), is all that different from what we're discussing in this thread. the issue is permanent harm, which is impossible to measure, and as i've pointed out, extremely subject to culture. "particularly if the subject was alive" is a JOKE. seriously. i know my sense of humor is out there, but ya allah. some people here need to use smaller butt plugs. and i'm sorry, but our distaste for cannibalism IS cultural conditioning. there are societies that have considered cannibalism - at least in terms of eating the naturally dead - not all that out there or such a horrible crime against humanity. the idea that it's so beyond the pale is part of our own cultural framework. i don't see how acknowledging the fact that western culture is not defaulting culturelessness but simply another cultural framework in and of itself, amongst many, is so insane. respectfully, a'ishah.

StrangerinBlack -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 1:23:38 PM)
I find it kinda funny how many people have only sort of read this thread and then are like "Anyone should be able to do anything to anyone at any time" Lets make this simple. If mental health means anything, than the desire to seriously/permanently disable yourself falls into the category of unhealthy. If you think you have the right to engage in unhealthy acts, more power to you. I think that it might be relevant to point out that in a large number of suicides which are prevented, the victim later is extremely grateful that the intervention occurred. You people love to talk in abstract, hypothetical terms, that seem to ignore the reality that there are many unhealthy people out there that need real help. No one is trying to stop you from hurting yourself here, but the desire to actually experience HARM (not pain), is not healthy and any rationalizations to the contrary can not change this. Maybe you have a right to do it, but I think the tacit message many of you are sending out in this thread is that any behavior, no matter how destructive, is A-OK. I'm sorry, but living in the world of consequences I respectfully disagree, and I hope that your arm-chair philosophising does not somehow encourage a tragic event. Edit: Oh and since some people seem to get lost in words here (Red, im looking at you here). Lets make the (obvious) distinction beween fantasy (the idea turns you on), and desire (you actually want to do the thing in question). I fantasize about killing my boss, I desire to sleep with his wife. I think that fantasizing about anything is fine, but that many desires are unhealthy. Maybe this will clear up a little confusion.

StrangerinBlack -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 1:34:43 PM)
Thanks, it about time for me to get off work and drive home, but I would love to read and respond to some of your writings a little later on.

Isolation -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 1:34:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack No one is trying to stop you from hurting yourself here, but the desire to actually experience HARM (not pain), is not healthy and any rationalizations to the contrary can not change this. Where do you draw the line between this and Boxing? One need only look at Muhammed Ali to see the results of engaging in this sport. And no one could argue that any boxer walks into the ring with a reasonable expectation that he will not be harmed in any way. Indeed, the purpose is to deal out more harm than one receives. So where do you draw the line?

StrangerinBlack -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 1:40:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Isolation quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack No one is trying to stop you from hurting yourself here, but the desire to actually experience HARM (not pain), is not healthy and any rationalizations to the contrary can not change this. Where do you draw the line between this and Boxing? One need only look at Muhammed Ali to see the results of engaging in this sport. And no one could argue that any boxer walks into the ring with a reasonable expectation that he will not be harmed in any way. Indeed, the purpose is to deal out more harm than one receives. So where do you draw the line? I'm sorry, are you trying to say that the reason people box is becuase they DESIRE to be harmed? Or is the damage a natural result of their activity? Also, I see no direct connection between someone playing a sport, and someone removing their penis. On the other hand, if someone told me they were going to start boxing because they WANTED to get brain damage, I think some sort of mental evaluation might be in order here, don't you? Also, remember we are trying to define what is healthy and unhealthy here, not deciding what people should or should not be allowed to do.

hisannabelle -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 2:10:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack Lets make this simple. If mental health means anything, than the desire to seriously/permanently disable yourself falls into the category of unhealthy. If you think you have the right to engage in unhealthy acts, more power to you. I think that it might be relevant to point out that in a large number of suicides which are prevented, the victim later is extremely grateful that the intervention occurred. You people love to talk in abstract, hypothetical terms, that seem to ignore the reality that there are many unhealthy people out there that need real help. No one is trying to stop you from hurting yourself here, but the desire to actually experience HARM (not pain), is not healthy and any rationalizations to the contrary can not change this. Maybe you have a right to do it, but I think the tacit message many of you are sending out in this thread is that any behavior, no matter how destructive, is A-OK. I'm sorry, but living in the world of consequences I respectfully disagree, and I hope that your arm-chair philosophising does not somehow encourage a tragic event. greetings strangerinblack, so...pursuing an activity that can cause you harm because you want to experience pain (i.e. a heavy flogging) is okay? because, you know, this further shows what i'm trying to say here - things are NOT as black and white as everyone seems to think they are in happy go lucky lala land or wherever it is you guys practice s&m. two of my biggest interests are knife play and breath play. knife play is pain that often causes permanent harm/disfigurement as a result, and breath play is an experience that can easily cause harm. while this doesn't bother me all that much, since i think ssc is mostly a mantra people like to repeat for the hell of it, i've been told many a time that neither of those activities is safe OR sane, and in this thread i've now been informed it's not consensual either, since apparently i can't consent to permanent harm because wanting permanent harm makes me crazy. it's not too big of a step from there to not being able to consent to having a body part cut off. are we going to start arresting piercers or tattoo artists and locking people seeking them out up for more extreme types of body mods? the line you (and others who agree with you on this thread) seem to think is common sense is "permanent harm" - and, um, there are a lot of things that constitute permanent harm that not even taboo but fairly well-known s&m practices (edgeplay, or whatever you want to call it). personally, i LIKE the fact that i'm not being locked up in a mental institution for doing these things in the privacy of my master's home, and i'd LIKE to keep it that way. and, i hate to give a throwback to the old neverending no limits threads (please do not let this thread drag on for 32 more pages in pursuit of THAT) but consensual slavery cannot be "slavery" without the whole "giving up of rights" ability and it cannot be "consensual" without the whole "being able to consent to giving up rights" - so for couples whose idea of s&m goes beyond your average flogging or whatever, the fact that yes, we as slaves DO have the right to consent to being in a relationship where we can experience psychological or physical harm is kind of important. edited to add: to draw a parallel to something that has been discussed on this board - not too long ago (within the last year, maybe two?) we had a long-running thread about a scene one of the mistresses was doing (publicly, if i remember correctly) where she was nailing a guy's balls to a board. just because MOST people here would not want their balls (or labia) nailed to a board and think it's crazy that the submissive in question asked her to do it doesn't mean that just because he doesn't think along the same lines you do he couldn't consent to this scene. respectfully, a'ishah.

RedMagic1 -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 2:53:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack You people love to talk in abstract, hypothetical terms, that seem to ignore the reality that there are many unhealthy people out there that need real help. Have you ever volunteered on a suicide hotline? I have. People call up and confess to flirting with shockingly dangerous things. If I responded by telling them they had a "pathological psychosis" -- or some other kneejerk term -- they would have hung up on me, instead of giving me an opportunity to have a dialogue with them. I volunteered as a medical advocate for 13 years, and have won cases against insurance companies and hospital corporations, on behalf of low-income people who literally had nowhere else to turn. I often get letters from CollarMe people about problems they are facing. I got one this morning. Perhaps you have done more to help real people with real problems. I hope so. A message board is a medium based in the written word. Posters are accountable to what they wrote, not what they intended to write. You might notice that no one comes after me the way people have been coming after you. That's at least partially because I am careful to say exactly what I mean before I hit the submit button, and not to rely on "obvious" differences in definition between synonyms. I'm taking the time here because you seem like a decent guy who just needs to develop some better communication skills. I hope my investment helps you develop them. If you do, you will be able to help more people.

hisannabelle -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 3:14:56 PM)
i just wanted to address something else as well. quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack If mental health means anything, than the desire to seriously/permanently disable yourself falls into the category of unhealthy. If you think you have the right to engage in unhealthy acts, more power to you. the fact is, mental health has never been and will never be (at least not in my lifetime) an exact science. it won't. i'm sorry. calling the red ball blue won't make it blue - mental health MEANS something but thirty years ago even the light flogging s&mers would have been thought crazy. it's culturally conditioned, and as long as consent means something as well, the fact that it is taboo or disgusting or weird to YOU does not necessarily mean that someone who is otherwise competent is completely unable to consent to it just because one more conservative group finds it unhealthy or weird or whatever. assessing competency and taking away people's power to consent to what they want to happen to their own bodies is going to be a gray area as long as mental health, mental illness, and what constitutes mental illness continue to be gray areas - and i don't see that changing anytime soon. saying that mental health is basically black and white or common sense doesn't make it any less gray. respectfully, a'ishah.

BitaTruble -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/30/2008 3:17:11 PM)
Ah yes, that was our own lovely MissTress. My only regret is that I couldn't be there to watch it. [;)] What I'm getting from the gist of this thread is that folks are having problems with activities which go too far in their own humble opinions. When you pull back a bit from an extreme edge, most are going to be either indifferent to such things or actually be okay with it all. So, it's only the level which seems to be in question and that is, in fact, quite subjective. What would harm me, personally, might be far less or far more in terms of a given level of activity than what would harm another. For some examples - all of this could be put under the general category of amputation: Nose job Boob job Brow lift Eye job Lipo suction and so on ... They are all cutting off or discarding body parts often for a superficial purpose or the perception that such is a flaw which must be removed. Now, cut off your finger for the sake of spiritual enlightment, purity of pleasure or desire for the experience and that's bad. Cut off part of your nose because you think it's too big and that's good or, at least, not an indication that one is mentally unstable. Bottom line - the term 'harm' is subjective. That you can get 99% of the people to agree that once it attains a certain level it's 'probably' an indication of mental unbalance has little to do with whether or not such is factual. The world used to be flat, remember, and everybody knew it to be true. Let's take the other issue and, as a lover of blood myself, I'll just use me as an example. When I cut my finger, say chopping a veg or something, I almost automatically stick my finger in my mouth and lick the blood off. Some will ewww to that, but others will stop, blink and go.. oh yeah, I do that, too! And let's take biting which is a very popular activity in BDSM. Biting to the point of drawing blood isn't all that uncommon. Taking the accident of bread and wine as the body and blood in Eucharist, which many believe was a foretelling of the cruxifiction, is a sacrament to this day yet .. no one blinks an eye at the symbolism. Let's face it, canabalism has been historically documented back to the time of the Neanderthals so, it's not exactly something new which a few BDSM afficiendo's dreamed up just to rile the masses in some divisive manner. No, it is certainly 'not' common and I don't think anyone is claiming that such is rampant among us but, rare as it may be, to discount the very idea that it's possible that someone can indulge in activities while being of sound mind is tragic and, truly, is much more dangerous. If we seek only to point out that mentally unstable folks indulge then we open up a door of complacency. The mentally stable Mr. X or Mz. Q will NEVER do such things to me so I don't even need to bring them up before committing myself to their care! Well, yanno, whether it's a boob job, nose job or hacking off a pinky or two .. go ahead and bring it up. It only hurts when you don't talk about it beforehand. In the end, when the line is crossed must be retained by the individual. If I allow someone else to draw the line they may go to far and actually cause me harm .. or, they may not go far enough and prevent me from experiences which I seek out as an adult, thinking, rational person. I've said it before .. if you think that death is a hard limit, I've got news for you. One day, that boundary is going to be tested then erased and you're going to discover that no matter how much you safeword against it, Thanatos will find you. Until then.. enjoy yourself and communicate with your partners so that you 'know' what the possibilities are before you're trussed up, blindfolded and wake up missing body parts you had no desire to see detached.

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