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Interactions - 11/8/2005 9:54:12 PM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline

Was re-reading a book today marking passages and came across a section that in light of the to kneel or no to kneel honorifics to those that choose a Top title debate I thought I would share.

quote:

All rights are attributed to Jay Weisman SM101 second addition pgs 245 & 246 greenery press. Use and citing are for reference purposes of discussion only.

Poor-quality dominants, on the other hand, cause irritation everywhere they go. They try to dominate other dominants, cop an attitude toward strangers and non-scene people, and otherwise try to get into a one-up position. A novice submissive woman I know suddenly realized about an acquaintance, " He's not a dominant - he's a rude asshole." Furthermore, poor quality dominants often regard submissives with disdain. They may try to give orders to, or attempt to touch (perhaps even whip), someone who has not previously agreed to submit. They may demand submissive behavior before negotiations, or even personal acquaintances, have been complete. These behaviors can provoke a strongly negative reaction, up to and including a fist in the face.
Poor quality dominants are predatory with submissives. They attempt to dominate as many people as possible. These widely despised creatures cause anger and resentment everywhere they go and are held in contempt. They usually don't last long in the SM community.
Many of the best dominants do not appear at all dominant when you meet them in the "vanilla" world. Except for perhaps a certain unwillingness to obey a direct order as quickly as others obey it, and a lack of anxiety about making direct eye contact, they appear fairly normal. They are often among the friendliest of people.

The question is if submissives in most Dom/me/Top's view are our most precious posession why is it that there seem to be so many that not only treat subs/ slaves with disrespect to them & their collar but will also openly show disdain to those that do not adhere to their way of thinking? I find it odd that in a community that has reasonably loosely established categories Dom/me/Top, switch & sub/slave with all the flavors that there seems to be those that believe my kink is better & more "real" than yours. Am I the only one that finds the preditory my kink is better than yours harmful?

< Message edited by theRose4U -- 11/8/2005 10:37:29 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Interactions - 11/8/2005 10:46:20 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

So are you trying to agree with the quote or are you giving it as an example of what you're complaining about?

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 2

RE: Interactions - 11/8/2005 11:01:27 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

I find it odd that in a community that has reasonably loosely established categories Dom/me/Top, switch & sub/slave with all the flavors that there seems to be those that believe my kink is better & more "real" than yours. Am I the only one that finds the preditory my kink is better than yours harmful?

In short, yes I do. But then i find most predatory attitudes less than helpfull and often harmfull. What I have found is that the "My kink is better or more real than your kink" attitude is usually found to be in the attitudes of those who by and large are not secure in their kink, lifestyle or thermselves and rather than mastering their kink and them selves and tghus demonstrating the value of their kink, they take the easy road and attack other people's kinks and by doing so drawing light from their own inadequaties.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

So are you trying to agree with the quote or are you giving it as an example of what you're complaining about?

I would have thouigh after reading the last paragraph where the question was. I saw the quore as a means of illustrating just what I said regarding the last of donimance in some doms outside the lifestyle.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 3

RE: Interactions - 11/8/2005 11:20:33 PM

ExistentialSteel

Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline

The "my kink is better than your kink" attitude may be found, but I think most see that shallow view for what it is. How many posts do you see on here saying that we all have our ways and whatever works works?

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 4

RE: Interactions - 11/8/2005 11:54:44 PM

obis

Posts: 412
Joined: 9/9/2005
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel
The "my kink is better than your kink" attitude may be found, but I think most see that shallow view for what it is. How many posts do you see on here saying that we all have our ways and whatever works works?

Well, it's not espoused on the board much, but we DO see subs and doms coming here all the time with a question along the lines of "I just met a whatever and he says that if I don't do XYZ that I'm not a real whatever, do I need to do XYZ? I'm very interested in whatever but hate the idea of XYZ!"

So unfortunately the attitude of the predatory player is very common and frequently more vocal than the attitude of "enjoy what you enjoy". I feel honestly bad watching new people fall into the trap, but I understand that it IS very seductive to an uncertain person to find someone who is very confident they have the one, true faith. To someone new it isn't at all obvious the person claiming "my kink is better than your kink" is full of it. All we can do is talk about it in the abstract in places like this, because when you get involved in a specific situation it can seem self-serving to say a particular person is just a an arrogant asshole.

< Message edited by obis -- 11/8/2005 11:56:59 PM >

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 5

RE: Interactions - 11/9/2005 12:02:23 AM

girl4you2

Posts: 1622
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline

what about the hard core sadists who purport to be years into this and that no limits are the best way, and that any stated limits are just there to "break" the slave?

edited by me...spelling again post midnight

< Message edited by girl4you2 -- 11/9/2005 12:03:46 AM >

_____________________________

maireann croí éadrom i bhfad. is maith an scáthán súil charad. is leor nod don eolach.
got shoes?

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 6

RE: Interactions - 11/9/2005 2:20:33 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

I don't see how your question of "my kink is better than yours" derives from the quoted passage....?

We all know there's plenty of people in the lifestyle who have discovered that in adopting the *title* of "dom/me", they seem to think they're almost divinely empowered to treat anyone with all the arrogance and disdain they see fit. And these are the "poor-quality dominants" referred to in the quoted passage.... To me, they're just rude arseholes who are long overdue for a manners lesson!

As to your question....
In a lifestyle that has a defined control dynamic of domination and submission, you're naturally gonna come across opinionated, assertive, and competitive egos, especially amongst the Dominants and particularly when they're sharing common space, be it a community gathering or just an online Forum.

I'm not one for community functions etc but I've still been to munches where some doms have attempted to stare me down - to which I usually respond by cracking up laughing.... For me, community is a good place to find a fem/sub, nothing more. I have no time for those who wanna strut and show their stuff etc, though they tend to be a minority - from my experience, anyway. But there's nothing like an audience to bring out the worst in some people and I think that's where a lot of the "my kink is better than yours" attitude has it's genesis - real life or online.

Focus.

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 7

RE: Interactions - 11/9/2005 4:09:51 AM

sunshine333

Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

i find most predatory attitudes less than helpfull and often harmfull. What I have found is that the "My kink is better or more real than your kink" attitude is usually found to be in the attitudes of those who by and large are not secure in their kink, lifestyle or thermselves and rather than mastering their kink and them selves and tghus demonstrating the value of their kink, they take the easy road and attack other people's kinks and by doing so drawing light from their own inadequaties.

well said IronBear!

i will add to that ... how lucky for us to be privledged to see their flashing neon "i'm inadequate" sign and be forwarned before finding out too late.

humbly,
sunshine

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 8

RE: Interactions - 11/9/2005 4:26:38 AM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

The question is if submissives in most Dom/me/Top's view are our most precious posession why is it that there seem to be so many that not only treat subs/ slaves with disrespect to them & their collar but will also openly show disdain to those that do not adhere to their way of thinking? I find it odd that in a community that has reasonably loosely established categories Dom/me/Top, switch & sub/slave with all the flavors that there seems to be those that believe my kink is better & more "real" than yours. Am I the only one that finds the preditory my kink is better than yours harmful?

the Rose4U

First, i loved the quote. However, in my own personal lexicon, a "rude ass**** is not a real Dom or Master. First, because his manners suck; and second because he lacks self-control. i find good manners and self-control to be amoung a Dom or Master's most appealing qualities. i realise there may be situations in which good manners must give way to protectiveness, but that is a different situation and hopefully, one that rarely arises.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/9/2005 4:27:52 AM >

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 9

RE: Interactions - 11/9/2005 5:00:50 AM

LadyJulieAnn

Posts: 979
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: offline

I think you could take out the word "dominants" from the quote and replace it with "people". We are all human, and rude people are just part of the population. I don't know why some people think there is a different standard within this lifestyle. We are not immune.

Be well,
Julie

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 10

RE: Interactions - 11/9/2005 6:06:44 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U
The question is if submissives in most Dom/me/Top's view are our most precious posession

First off...that's really usually just sweet romantic talk for most people.

quote:

why is it that there seem to be so many that not only treat subs/ slaves with disrespect to them & their collar but will also openly show disdain to those that do not adhere to their way of thinking?

Because doms are just people like everyone else with all the same faults and issues.

quote:

I find it odd that in a community that has reasonably loosely established categories Dom/me/Top, switch & sub/slave with all the flavors that there seems to be those that believe my kink is better & more "real" than yours. Am I the only one that finds the preditory my kink is better than yours harmful?

I don't find it HARMFUL...though I don't find it productive either.

People are people. When they get into bdsm they like the special secret darkness of it. In order to make sure they keep it superior, they resort to making everything else inferior, including vanilla relationships. It's also a defense mechanism to help keep them feeling like what they do isn't so bad...because only "doormats and Non-SSC people do that"

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 11

RE: Interactions - 11/9/2005 6:25:15 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I don't find it HARMFUL...though I don't find it productive either.

People are people. When they get into bdsm they like the special secret darkness of it. In order to make sure they keep it superior, they resort to making everything else inferior, including vanilla relationships. It's also a defense mechanism to help keep them feeling like what they do isn't so bad...because only "doormats and Non-SSC people do that"

I'm going to disagree with you LA, but only from a perspective basis. To start off I'd better state that what harms you may not harm me. This is why some people enjoy extreme pain and others not only dont but may well be seriously traumatised by it. However when newbys are involved, i've seen far too much damage done because they didn't have the knowledge to protect them selves or to walk away from some very persuasive and/or dominating people who prey on the newness of some. This applies to may areas of life and not just here.

I do agree that one of the attractions to the lifestyle is the "darkness' - the being involved which the outside world frowns on (something like pinching a smoke from your parent's and smoking illicitly behind the wood shed or playing doctors and nurses behind the school toilets when you were a kid. However lets not forget that there are many facits to the "Darkness." This lifestyle is only a tiny shadow of the real darkness. A place where if you dont know the rules and dont have the experience to know when to bug out you get seriously hurt or dead. I believe any discussion which sheds light on the pitfalls is of value and should be helpfull for new people.

~People should have one personal paranoia. It may save their life.~

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 12

RE: Interactions - 11/9/2005 10:55:06 AM

ExistentialSteel

Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

A place where if you dont know the rules and dont have the experience to know when to bug out you get seriously hurt or dead.

~People should have one personal paranoia. It may save their life.~

IronBear, I'd have to disagree with that. Not knowing the rules is going to have little to do with things. The vast majority of Doms know how to work with a newbie. Sure you can say that a sub in her desire to serve can find those who are not careful Doms, but I think that is rare. It seems that most subs find people that they can trust to Dom them when they start. The sub not knowing the rules is not going to matter to most Doms. I have honestly never talked to one sub who said she was seriously hurt when she began.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 13

RE: Interactions - 11/9/2005 11:10:48 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

A place where if you dont know the rules and dont have the experience to know when to bug out you get seriously hurt or dead.

~People should have one personal paranoia. It may save their life.~

IronBear, I'd have to disagree with that. Not knowing the rules is going to have little to do with things. The vast majority of Doms know how to work with a newbie. Sure you can say that a sub in her desire to serve can find those who are not careful Doms, but I think that is rare. It seems that most subs find people that they can trust to Dom them when they start. The sub not knowing the rules is not going to matter to most Doms. I have honestly never talked to one sub who said she was seriously hurt when she began.

I understand what you are saying, you did however apply the wrong passage I wrote to your comment. the whole passage from which you chose the quiote reads thus:

quote:

However lets not forget that there are many facits to the "Darkness." This lifestyle is only a tiny shadow of the real darkness. A place where if you dont know the rules and dont have the experience to know when to bug out you get seriously hurt or dead. I believe any discussion which sheds light on the pitfalls is of value and should be helpfull for new people.

The part I have highlighted has nothing to do with BDSM as such although some BDSM folk are involved in it but not as their regular scene. The areas i was refering to usually have the blue/red light flashing and uniforms kicking in doors with guns drawn. Ie. the drug scene and other illegal activities. I was merely saying that if you are entering a world wher dangers prevale it is wise to learn all you can brfore physically entering any new scene/area.

Back to your other comments regarding new subs getting preyed upon, I have no idea of the numbers and I seriously dioubt if anyone does. However, I do know the numbers of people who are in contact with me for that same reason (having been hurt and preyed upon by predators). If it happens to one person that is one person too many. Olease dont tell me that it is a numbers game and X amount of newbys need to be hurt in some way before people sit up and listen.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 14

RE: Interactions - 11/9/2005 11:32:36 AM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline

The original post was a combo rant thoughts from another thread combined with book passage that I found almost immediately after.

quote:

IronBear, I'd have to disagree with that. Not knowing the rules is going to have little to do with things. The vast majority of Doms know how to work with a newbie. Sure you can say that a sub in her desire to serve can find those who are not careful Doms, but I think that is rare. It seems that most subs find people that they can trust to Dom them when they start. The sub not knowing the rules is not going to matter to most Doms. I have honestly never talked to one sub who said she was seriously hurt when she began.

I would disagree that most let alone the vast majority of Doms work well with a newbie. Point being that there wouldn't be so many on here asking if it's "normal" for their new Domly Dom to want them to find additional girls a week into online chat or for them to be approached by the Dom of the "on your knees bitch" persuasion if they were meeting people that they were totally comfortable with. I personally believe that educating a sub is the only way for them to truly make informed consent. Consent being the first step towards not getting hurt physically or mentally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

A place where if you dont know the rules and dont have the experience to know when to bug out you get seriously hurt or dead.

I very much agree.

quote:

what about the hard core sadists who purport to be years into this and that no limits are the best way, and that any stated limits are just there to "break" the slave?

My take on this is that's it's extremely dangerous but if the sub/ potential slave has enough facts in their mind to make informed consent then hey more power to ya. Personally for me & mine I think that no limits would be a nice idea...freedom to work within established parameters and the like without conflict. The only issue is no limits to me means things like murder, sex play that could involve the abuse of a preditory abuse victim, etc and other things that I personally find abhorrant are fair game because the Top said so. In my mind this can all too easily lead to the abuse of power that you have been given. I mean without a sub or a slave, yes we are still dominants in our own minds & lives but without one to govern who exactly are you breaking? Too often these are the same Domly Doms that roam these channels ranting and raving that they are the only "true masters" that others that don't bow to them & their station are somehow "unworthy". Just further reinforcing the HNG model of I woke up this morning and decided I am MASTER Captain Crunch lord of all the land of breakfast cereals & you will BOW TO ME. ROFLMAO. The part that amazes me is the sheer numbers that try this.

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 15

RE: Interactions - 11/9/2005 12:26:12 PM

ExistentialSteel

Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

The areas i was refering to usually have the blue/red light flashing and uniforms kicking in doors with guns drawn. Ie. the drug scene and other illegal activities. I was merely saying that if you are entering a world wher dangers prevale it is wise to learn all you can brfore physically entering any new scene/area.

Well, yes, this scenario is a much different one. Don't go places that may get raided due to drugs or illegal activities. I couldn't agree with you more. I'm still not certain how you would determine if drugs and illegal activity are more prevalent in the D/s world, but maybe it is. Shrug.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 16

RE: Interactions - 11/9/2005 12:43:14 PM

ErosPsyche

Posts: 46
Joined: 11/5/2005
Status: offline

I raised an eyebrow at the quote in the OP. A long list of "your dislikes=poor quality dominant" just sounds like a way to subjectively demonize whoever you don't like. If someone chaps your ass - they're "officially bad according to J. Wiseman."

I bet there are fucktards running around in BDSM organizations all over America using that quote to blackball people who chap their ass.

I'm not in the business of deciding who is a good dominant and who isn't - I recognize I tend to approve of people like me, and have a more critical eye when it comes to people who don't share my values and framework. I think it is honest to acknowledge that our preferences are just that.

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 17

RE: Interactions - 11/9/2005 1:29:57 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

Well, yes, this scenario is a much different one. Don't go places that may get raided due to drugs or illegal activities. I couldn't agree with you more. I'm still not certain how you would determine if drugs and illegal activity are more prevalent in the D/s world, but maybe it is. Shrug.

~grins~ Actually, I was refering to the reverse as that some areas of BDSM are mor prevelent in the illicit arena of illegal drug supply. (Well that has been my experience anyway, and no I dont use or deal drugs, but I can read official and field reports.) However drugs was onkly an example of one area of the Darkness and obviously there are others. My whole thrust is what I see as a prudent need for newbys to be helped along by experienced people in thye community so they have a good foundation on which to make decisions regarding a potential Dom, as well as building a network of people they can call on for advice and help (Such as CM).

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 18

RE: Interactions - 11/9/2005 1:34:55 PM

lonewolf05

Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline

where in that passage does it even hint........at holier than thou?

i must have missed something........?

wolf

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 19

RE: Interactions - 11/9/2005 4:11:59 PM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

IronBear, I'd have to disagree with that. Not knowing the rules is going to have little to do with things. The vast majority of Doms know how to work with a newbie. Sure you can say that a sub in her desire to serve can find those who are not careful Doms, but I think that is rare. It seems that most subs find people that they can trust to Dom them when they start. The sub not knowing the rules is not going to matter to most Doms. I have honestly never talked to one sub who said she was seriously hurt when she began.

ExistentialSteel

i must respectfully disagree Sir. i have heard stories from submissives and slaves that broke my heart. Just because a Man calls Himself a Dom doesn't automatically ensure a single, solitary thing about Him.

BTW, just love Your nick.

candystripper

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 20

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