pagankinktress
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Finally...a calm and quiet moment has been graciously bestowed upon me to review this thread....yayyyy...
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Except in cases where you are ordered to please, yes definitely.
LA: See, this is kind of what inspired my thinking on this topic initally...it's like, if one has been ordered to please, is there a sense of duty involved which overshadows one's ability to genuinely please their dominant? I guess this is a rhetorical question and that's the place where my mind is at the moment...
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This comes to fruition with me when we're talking about immediate desires. Sure, me giving him a backrub would be nice, but it's gonna take a chunk of time that was devoted to dinner. Or, it can be the other way around...I really want to please him in the now, and he's got ambitions for the future. In the end, I just let him decide what would be more pleasurable in the long run.
So, in this light, it's almost as if the desire to please and need to obey are distinct entities determined by the mood or whim of the dominant. Sometimes there is a bit of inner conflict, but in the end, letting the dominant set the tone eases the potential for feeling conflicted....thank you Spankette for sharing this.
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I am always wanting to please, but not just in obeying what he wanted from me. I love the feeling of knowing that I not only did what was asked, but exceeded those expectations. (That might also that I never just want to do something "good enough.") The one part that get me in trouble, is when i don't get recognized for this extra effort, or I am having a hard day and just need a confermation that everything is ok. Then when I ask for this confermation, I am seen as needy.
I think another thing that has been an issue for me. Is when I give to the point that I forget what I need to keep myself happy and healthy. I am still working on this though.
CrazyC: I can appreciate where you're coming from. I like the way you define pleasing as going beyond obeying and simply carrying out what was expected of you. And I can see where it might be hard at times when you need some sort of confirmation/affirmation but are trying to draw the line between an earnest desire for feedback and being viewed as "needy". It's also good that you recognize you still have to take care of you. My motto always has been: we can't be of much use or good to others if we haven't been taking care of ourselves first. Thanks for sharing.
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Obedience is pleasing to my Master. And even within obedience, there is always the opportunity to go above and beyond in order to please.
Julietsierra: I like how you point out that within obedience, there is still opportunity to reach farther and higher to please. Kind of nicely compliments what CrazyC talked about. =)
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The difference is focus. Whether it's obeying an order or giving a massage, where is my focus? If my focus is on doing what *I* want, giving what *I* want to give, then my focus is on me. BEing pleasing, my focus is on HIM.
When i feel a conflict between obedience and my desire to please, i check my focus. When i adjust my focus to Him, the conflict is resolved.
Now this is articulated fabulously! Very nicely put, especially the piece on focus and how it relates to pleasing.
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Pleasing is about approval. Obedience is about fulfillment. They often are seen as going togther, but there is nothing about true obedience that says it also MUST be about approval.
MasterFire, I do love how you stated this! It makes me think about the ways we all go about doing things in daily life...do we do the things we do to gain approval or fulfillment? Or put another way, if we have the choice, do we set out to do something for approval or for fulfillment? Which would be most personally meaningful in the long run? The answer would probably provide some worthwhile guidance and direction.
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Sir requires me to be obedient at all times... He requires me to be pleasing also ... but at the least obedience will do.
I can be obedient without being pleasing, but I cannot be pleasing without being obedient.
This is so interesting...being obedient can be merely about following through on what was ordered or instructed; but in being pleasing, there is something inherently obedient going on for you. Thank you for sharing that, softness.
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I'm oriented more towards obedience than 'pleasing' and have gotten less concerned with approval over time. Perhaps its because of this that the difference between 'obedience' and 'pleasing' have become magnified in my mind. I find my satisfaction in being able to obey rather than the outcome of my obedience. I don't need a lot of 'rewards' and don't really like being rewarded overmuch and approval seems to be a sort of reward--it feels a little manipulative to tie my obedience to approval, like some kind of suble emotional blackmail (as in, she's a good girl so long as you shower her with praise). Acknowledgement is important because it helps me know if I was in fact obedient to the order as it was intended to be followed and its good to know whether or not I'm doing a good job.
Gypsygirl, it sounds like you've evolved and grown through serving, submitting. I think that is totally wonderful. I am really intrigued by the way you discuss the idea of "reward" here too--and how you bring up approval vs. acknowledgment. I love reading the different ways individuals here are motivated in their submission.
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To be pleasing requires two things: absolute obedience and exquisite beauty.
Absolute Obedience is the to follow the letter of whatever directive has been given and exquisite beauty is to do so in the right spirit.
Aptitude and attitude go hand in hand to be pleasing. Even when a girl doesn't have proficiency to accomplish something her Master tasks her with, she can be pleasing by doing her best and with the right demeanor. Nothing is more aggravating to SJ than when I am downhearted about not doing something perfectly for him. Its something we have worked on this year and it certainly has gotten better.
Following directions steadfastly and/or doing so in a graceful spirit. It almost seems like a fine line, but you hit on a powerful point here. Nicely said, fairerthanshe.
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The differance between obedience and pleasure for me is whether I'm on Auto-pilot or whether I think a task through. Obedience doesn't really require me to do anything but 'the task'. In order to go the extra mile and enhance my obedience by the addition of a pleasure outcome for him, it requires some thought from me.
This is excellent, PL. In my experience, sometimes it seems submissives enjoy an exchange or a task best when they don't need to think things through...but oh, the ways that exchange or task is enhanced when one puts a little extra thought behind their action! At least for me, I appreciate those moments very much. It makes me want to do even more to enhance the next exchange.
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However one does not need an order to be pleasing. I will do things that i know Master will like. he does not have to give me an order to do these things i do it to be pleasing.
Your Master is lucky to have a thoughtful person like you around, little one. Thanks for your response.
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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
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In your opinion and/or experience, is there a difference between a desire to please and a desire to obey your dominant?
obedience IS pleasing to Him, so the desire to obey, IS ALSO a desire to please...and vice versa.
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Have either of these desires ever become problematic for you?
no. His pleasure is paramount, so this slave strives to please Him by obeying. it has worked out beautifully so far.
I like the vice-versa...and yes, it can be a beautiful cycle of obeying and pleasing intermingling when carried out in a spirit such as this. =)
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I really liked some of the other comments on this thread. Unless ordered to please, yes, I see a difference between the desire to please and the desire to obey. I do not see the desire to please as being a submissive trait. He has the desire to please Alandra and I and yet he is not the one who submits in our relationship.
To me, the desire to please is often about doing your own will. The desire to obey is about doing the will of someone else. As eyesopened mention, it is about where I am focused. If my focus is on doing what he wants, then I don't really have to worry about whether he is pleased or not.
Kyra, I like what you said about the desire to please not necessarily being a submissive trait at all--especially when viewed within the context of how a dominant might like to please his or her submissive. And desire to please really does come down to doing your own will, when you think about it. Great reply!
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Obedience = go there, sit here, be quiet, turn, heel, now kneel
Pleasing = serving me dinner, being a table, rubbing my feet, dancing for me,
One can always obey but not be pleasing as one obeys.
For me these definitely have two different meanings.
Isabelah, you have a terrific way of getting your point across!  Again, your reply here touches on the concept of the spirit in which something is done for a dominant. Thanks for sharing.
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Pleasing involves my feelings and my intent. I can obey while thinking he's a louse, but I can't be focused on pleasing while doing that. For me, obedience is an action while pleasing is an emotion.
But I'm not into either service or obedience. Instead our primary focus is emotional transparency.
It's a problem if I am holding in a resentment and don't want to please him. If I just don't want to do something, I simply explain why. Sometimes it's a logistics problem like the time back when we were ldr when he emailed me to wear a short skirt and high heels and no panties while forgetting that I was escorting a school hiking trip. And sometimes it's an emotional thing and I'm in a bad place. He needs to know what's happening inside me.
This is cool....I like how you talk about the difference between obedience and pleasing in terms of actions vs. emotions. And most definitely, I can see how the way a task or directive is carried out is going to be impacted by the person's present emotional state.
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Along with that; i definitely believe there is a difference between the desire to please and the desire to obey. i always desire to please Master; however, there are times when i do not desire to obey Him. i like to make Him happy, i like to know He is pleased with what i have done. This goes both for things i have done with the specific intent to please Master, and the times when i am doing a daily activity that has particularly pleased Master because of how well i've done it, etc. But there have been things Master has told me not to do that i have had no desire to obey. For example, i am on a diet and when Master tells me not to eat something i particularly like (chocolate!!!), i really don't want to obey Him. That is an incredibly simplified example, and there have been other more complicated situations.
Obviously there is conflict between the two; if i do not obey Master, He will not be pleased . . .
Cara, you make a lot of sense in your response--especially in how you describe that as a submissive, it's always your desire to please your Master, but you might not always desire to obey him. Also, I'm seeing there is a common bond among a few of the respondents to this thread, in that there is much value in receiving some feedback from a dominant to acknowledge what their submissive did *was* in fact, pleasing . Thank you for your contribution.
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I think this can be summed up by a scene in the movie 300
Xerxies "Anyone of my men would gladly die for me."
Leonidis "I would gladly die for anyone of my men."
Following out of love and respect (pleasing), rather than fear (obeying).
Interesting reference, and I do get what you're saying. But, is obedience always related to fear...and if so, fear of what? Consequence? Rejection? Disapproval? Something else?
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I think pleasing goes beyond obeying. Obedience is pretty much mandatory, and therefore sets a floor beneath which a sub is not allowed to go. Pleasing is taking another step, serving "above and beyond the call of duty", as it were. An example would be anticipating the dominant peson's needs and/or desires, and doing one's best to satisfy them, without any requirement or direction.
Of course, there are other ways to be pleasing. Just being there and being oneself may be pleasing. It really depends on what the dominant finds pleasing, though, doesn't it?
Yes, based on what many of the posters have talked about in this thread, it does appear that pleasing is often about going above and beyond...putting forth that extra bit of thought and carrying something out in a loving, graceful spirit. And most definitely...pleasure is a very subjective thing.  Thank you for sharing!
< Message edited by pagankinktress -- 7/20/2008 11:41:27 PM >
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RE: Pleasing Vs. Obeying - 
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