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Castle law - 7/3/2008 7:22:10 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		A quick Google search for the above will reveal the details, see also Castle doctrine.

What it says basically is that you no longer need to prove your life was in danger to use deadly force against an intruder. You no longer have the obligation to retreat. Just shoot them.

What's more some versions extend this to your car, place of business and so forth. No more robbers suing you for everything you own, that is if you miss the mark. No more robber's families suing you for wrongful death just because they raised it so well that it was a hardened criminal by age 16.

This has been adopted by more and more states, and I am sure DA will be pleased. I am. What's more the supreme court has now upheld such laws, citing the second amendment.

This has further ramifications, like the total ban on handguns in DC is pretty much out the window. Now that doesn't mean that you can carry in DC, but now if you have a gun in the house you can at least use it.

That also doesn't mean that you are not going to sit in jail for a couple of days under investigation, while they check see if you have any ties to the perp.

In Ohio, it's like there is no Constitution, but years ago a friend of mine shot someone in the back. He sat for three days but was released. The perp was running out of his front door stealing one of his guns. He just grabbed another one and shot.

Of course there was a Woman involved, he had to get up for work and she decided to have some thugs over for a little party. Wakes him up. One of her guests that he didn't even know was handling one of his guns, which of course did not please him in the least. He was all groggy and just awoken from a sound sleep. A few minutes later they made their move.

Thing is, in several states this doctrine has been applied, but it appears that it is becoming the law of the land. Criminals beware, are you willing to lose your life over a playstation, a guitar and a DVD player ? Think about it.

A friend of mine, the one who made me aware of this said something else interesting, and he reads these things in their entirity. He said that it appeared that even if you rigged a shotgun pointed at your front door that triggered when the door opened, which basically cuts the intruder in half, is now legal.

I guess that's why it is called castle law or castle doctrine. As far as I am concerned, it is about time. I am tired of these animals being treated as victims.

I also favor alot more executions. The problem is, the government (at least of Texas) doesn't care whether the person is guilty or not. Once this is cleared up, let the executions begin. If you rack up enough years that it is a foregone conclusion that you are never getting out, you should be executed. Plain and simple. I am tired of them spending our money to support these animals for the rest of their lives. Exceptions also need to be made, for example if someone catches 100 counts of shoplifting, but never hurt anyone, that should not be applied.

Breaking and entering an inhabited dwelling is a violation, not quite a rape. It is in the same category, but nowhere near the severity, but that doesn't mean it should not be a capital offense. And of course rapists should be executed.

It is time for us to raise and refine the requirements for living in a civilized society. And I think the castle laws are a step in the right direction.

T
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RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 7:47:23 AM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		I keep a loaded 357. and 12 gauge in my house to hold them off until I can get to the heavy stuff. Yes, I am a believer in using extreme force and terminal violence if someone enters my home uninvited and unwelcomed.

CD

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 7:55:35 AM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline 		I tend to agree with the idea of Castle Law as well. I hate that a person who has just been robbed and violated can then be punished for taking steps to protect themselves. As if most people's first reaction is going to be to meekly sit back and let themselves be robbed or attacked.

The only problem I ever had with it was when a friend of mine, (This was in Texas.) desperate to escape an abusive relationship, was informed by her boyfriend that if she were caught trying to leave with any of her friends, he would shoot to kill because HE owned the house and HE would not invite them in therefore HE had the right to "defend himself and his property" ... He used that threat to terrorize and keep her for years before she finally worked up the courage to leave.

(in reply to CruelDesires)
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RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 8:39:29 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Well Term and DA,  spend a few years in a small town where there is law and order.

Your view might adjust on a bit of a sliding scale.

"Law"  is subject to who-where- -who gets charged.

Last night I was out on crime watch patrol.  Im good at it.  My facial expressions always leave people wondering what I am thinking. I have had this all my life. It has gotten me in plenty of hot water- maybe soon I can win some poker games. :-)

Anyhow about 9pm, the boss of CW approached me, told me -even we are not allowed in the park after sunset and we can be arrested. 9pm.  The sunset maybe was 8:40, I had my shoes, brace, hat off. This makes me mad!   Our purpose is to keep gangs out. NOT dump on any little infraction!  If I get told too many times, I will quit. Form my own version of CW, do up my own garb, and be the "competition".

This leads me to another point.  As I use my bike, I see there is very little "commons" as in public space. In some cultures people hang out- and be seen, socialize.  Not so in the US. We are enclosed in a tomb called a car, buffered by radio, cell phone, pedestrians and bikers are not welcomed.  God forbid someone "loiters".

Had I been in my car, I could have parked, and sat on my car.  Maybe.

The river closes to at sunset.

Yet- the river is the front of my house.

So from there I went home, putting in no more volunteer time to the downtown section, and sat on the river wall- "patrolling" there.
You would think businesses would like free CW bikes weaving and popping in the grounds of their stores-etc.

My point is the flip side of crime run-a-muck is pettyness.

Perhaps if the boss had said "hello, how are you" "just to let you know- we clear the park at dark".  But no. No "hello".

A buddy wont do the watch as he thinks he will be shot.  In fact- only 3 or 4 actually DO the "patrols".  [population 10,000]

Anyhow I am not breaking park rules this hour. I am not there. In fact with ALL the "rules", maybe I dont want to be there.  Bikes arent to be on sidewalks. White lettering...  but this was done to keep the teens in check. [I help pushed and got the kids a cool skatepark...tho most have to drive to it]

Well then as far as bike laws, go with traffic or against?  Do what is legal or necessary to be safe (est)?

Anyhow Im sending the boss the Cleveland for a week.  Maybe then she will see that a CW person who is in the park- is a minor thing.

Frankly- I dont think I would wear the CW garb IN Cleveland.   [see "get shot"]

(in reply to opposingtwilight)
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RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 8:53:22 AM   
pettingdragons


Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		This slave agrees with Castle Law.....while Master is away she feels safe...thee are swords and knives everywhere and floggers...all neatly hung or placed for easy access....poor sot who is thinking of coming in here whill be cut in half...it that included in the Law? We are lucky to live in a safe neighborhood and slave has an 80  shepard for extra protection (if she would really protect!! and not jsut runa nd hide) but she can be intimadating when seen....
Its a shame not to be able to protect ones self in ones home...years ago some one said if you shot an intruder in the back roll him over and fire more rounds, if he is not copmletely in your house drag him in....thats always sounded stupid ..


_____________________________

pettingdragons
"may the moon bless you with her light.......so you dont pee on your feet"

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 9:29:42 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


A friend of mine, the one who made me aware of this said something else interesting, and he reads these things in their entirity. He said that it appeared that even if you rigged a shotgun pointed at your front door that triggered when the door opened, which basically cuts the intruder in half, is now legal.

I guess that's why it is called castle law or castle doctrine. As far as I am concerned, it is about time. I am tired of these animals being treated as victims.

I also favor alot more executions. The problem is, the government (at least of Texas) doesn't care whether the person is guilty or not. Once this is cleared up, let the executions begin. If you rack up enough years that it is a foregone conclusion that you are never getting out, you should be executed. Plain and simple. I am tired of them spending our money to support these animals for the rest of their lives. Exceptions also need to be made, for example if someone catches 100 counts of shoplifting, but never hurt anyone, that should not be applied.



Term, I agree entirely with the castle doctrine.... However, your friend is absolutely wrong about the "shotgun rigged to point at the door".. That IS illegal, under a number of state and federal statutes. Essentially such a device is no longer a firearm, but rather an antipersonell mine so you cannot do it for the same reason that you cannot put a claymore mine with a trip wire in front of your door. Thats not self defense thats a booby trap / mine / destructive device and if it ever went off you would face all kinds of prosecution on all kinds of criminal and civil issues. I would not reccommend it. You wont be tried for shooting someone, but youll be tried for manufacture of a dangerous device, negligent homicide, arson by explosives resulting in death, and / or a dozen other things.

As for the executions fuck it - even the "innocent" ones are guilty of something else. The "innocent man" texas executed was arrested for that one because he had a long history of home invasion rapes, and he had posession of the weapon used in the killing. So the DNA turned out not to match - oh well he was still a multiple times convicted rapist / burgular and he was a felon in posession of a weapon. He wasnt "innocent' .... The cops dont round up innocent men they round up ones with priors. His priors fit the MO, and he had the weapon. Sucks to be him, he should have been in church instead of violating his parole by having a weapon used in a rape / murder that matched his usual style. Good riddance.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 10:06:03 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		New faces in here. Well I am sure the other regulars will be along soon so I might as well respond now.

Cruel, in Missouri I believe that the laws were fairly in favor of the homedweller. I could be mistaken though. Thing is alot of people have said "Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six". I've always gone along with that, doing otherwise is going against self preservation. I have also considered a ploy in such an instance. It hasn't happened but the plan is, blow the fucker's head off and sit in a corner. Think about some dead relatives or something if you can cry. Grab you a couple beers and whatever and sit there for about an hour. If the cops don't come just roll the body up in the carpet and get rid of it. Save the hassle. But know that the fucked up laws in some places made this necessary, not me. If I can get out of jail free for protecting myself I will.

oppos, that is a fucked up situation. Consider this though, I have a couple of questions, first, did he have a team guarding her or did he live without sleep ? Second, he did not work or anything and always had everything delivered ? If he had something delivered she could leave with the delivery guy, there would be a record that he was there at the owner's behest. If he went shopping, there's the door. Are you saying that she was held phsically captive ? Chained up or in a cage whenever he was gone ?

Plus the fact that she could've shielded her friends from the bullet and then he would have jack shit for a defense. Most people who stay in abusive relationships do so because they are not all that smart. Perhaps it was a good learning experience ? It may sound harsh but something similar happened to my sister, and I do not want to go into what happened next, but it was very bad. But she did find a way out.

I just must realize that not everyone thinks like me.

petting, deadly force is deadly force. If you read the links from a Google search, you see that those words are used, therefore it doesn't matter if it is a sword, machette, or a frying pan. They did not say much about guns specifically. Like the booby trap part, there are plenty of non-gun based booby traps that can be fatal as well. So although the second amendment was mentioned, they simply did not specify any certain type of arms. So if you ever cut someone in half protecting yourself, expect to be detained pending investigation. In some cases it might not happen, just expect it though.

And hunky, you digressed, but since you did, you come up to me on the street thinking you are a cop or something, things might not go too well for you. The subject was about in one's own home. But if you want to take it to the streets, then do so. I think these citizen patrols and all this have a double edged effect. While it may scare some young offenders, once they have had a runin with the real police, you are dogshit to them, and not only are you not the deterrent you once were, you also become a target. Now if you walk around armed, that is a different story.

A few years ago I get this story from a neighbor who used to work at Drug Mart. Their rentacop was preventing someone from leaving because their car headlights did not work. Their rationale was that they couldn't let someone do something illegal. This is not true of real cops let alone rentacops. I said that I would have left them in a pool of their own blood. They retorted that I would be in jail, and I responded that he would still be in a pool of blood.

People assume authority, and sheeple accept authority. You see me smoking what looks like a joint across the street, just walking along, are you going to fuck with me ?

Let's gat back to the story, both headlights were out, at the same time all the sudden. The store sells replacements. The 'citizen' went in and bought two and the rentacop installed them for free, and of course because both parties could be outsmarted by a box of rocks, they did not light up. If they both go out at the same time it is not a bulb. So the store collects twenty five bucks and the 'citizen' is still not allowed to leave even though they have not committed any infraction.

Pool of blood I tellya. If it were one of my Parents or relatives I would seriously hurt this rentacop, he clearly overstepped his bounds, to past where a real cop would go. Not that they don't, but they would probably just let you leave and then give you a ticket for no headlights.

Another thing about any ersatz cop, tell them to shoot you, turn your back. If they are standing in the way of your car's egress go very slow but do not stop. They cannot shoot you, they do not have the priveledge that a real officer of the law has. They can't even shoot you for running away after stealing. Why ? Because they are not in their castle.

The standards even for an armed security guard are that a threat exists. But what the law means now is that there are different standards for when you are in your "castle". Doesn't matter if you rent or own, just that you reside there legally. That is mentioned in the links from Google as well. If you are a squatter you do not have that right to use deadly force.

T

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RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 10:55:43 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Well Term and DA,  spend a few years in a small town where there is law and order.

Your view might adjust on a bit of a sliding scale.

"Law"  is subject to who-where- -who gets charged.



Pahunkboy, I have lived in small towns and we have law and order in my town which is a small suburb of Houston. (People think of Houston as a big city, but what people consider "Houston" spans an area 70 miles across from up above Conroe and the woodlands all the way down to Galveston Island. Even "Space Center Houston" / The JSC is in Clear Lake, not "Houston"... What is commonly known as "Houston", as opposed to the city itself, covers 5 counties...Harris, Brazoria, Fort Bend, Montgomery, and Galveston and countless towns.

I do live in a small town, and we do have law and order and our police see to it that we do. It is quite safe here, because we keep it that way. Case in point, until the recent rains it has been nice weather lately so I have been driving my Vette instead of my Explorer for over a week. As a result I couldnt find my Explorer keys - I finally found them - they were in the ignition. So, for over a week, my Eddie Bauer Explorer sat in my driveway with the keys in it, unmolested. We have that degree of law and order because of our police and because of our armed citizens who create an environment that the thugs dont want to come to for fear of their own safety... There are places in Houston where the thugs own the streets, this isnt one of them because we keep it that way exactly because of our "who gets charged".

In this town, if you dont belong here and / or dont have business here, dont be here. If you come to this town with crime in mind the very best thing that can happen to you is that you get the snot beaten out of you by our hard ass cops who think a taser is a fun toy to play with and that pepper spray is eyedrops. Didn't actually commit a crime yet? Just driving around looking at the nice homes with the tools to do the job once you find the right house? Violating curfew? Don't worry they will find something to arrest you for anyway and then when you get back to the station youre in their playhouse.  If youre really unlucky you will be picked up by our special Southern version of the "neighborhood watch", which proudly claims to be "America's First Neighborhood Watch" as well as "The Original Boyz In The Hoods" 

I understand completely about selective law enforcement and Im fine with that... My last gf was picked up for Public Intoxication, and she was under 21 at the time. The local cops dropped her off at my house, and told me to keep her out of trouble. Likewise, there have been cops at a barbecue / crab boil  hosted by myself and my neighbors and they have seen her hitting the margaritta machine and drinking beer but see her 20 year old ass drinking in my back yard wasnt a threat to public safety and good order whereas a herd of inner city kids driving around at 2am smoking dope and blasting rap music while looking for somebody to victimize is. I have a "100 Club" sticker on the back window of all my vehicles, and that tells the cops Im not trouble.

As for your story about the Community Watch, I wouldnt belong to such an organization. First of all around here the "neighborhood watch" is the KKK / Knights of the White Kamelia so Im not joining anyway. I am however a volunteer firefighter and paramedic and I am fully certified for both - ie a volunteer firefighter / paramedic here has the exact same certification and qualification as a City of Houston paid firefighter and carries the same "Texas Dept of Health - Emergency Medical Technician - Paramedic" certification as a paramedic you will find on any Advance Life Support ambulance anywhere as the training is to Federal DOT standards.

A Community Watch / Citizens Patrol / Guardian Angels kind of thing is a half assed attempt at playing cop / security guard and doing things half assed does nobody any good. If you want to patrol your community and bust wrongdoers become a reserve cop or deputy. A reserve officer or deputy is a "real cop" with the same training and authority as any other cop not a half assed attempt at doing good. In my opinion you were wrong and they were right. In the story you related you arent a cop, and thus dont belong in the park after closing. Being there only puts yourself at risk and even if you encounter something what are you gonna do about it? Suppose you stumble across a gang meeting or even an out of control teenage party? What are you gonna do about it? Youre not a cop. Where is you badge, gun, and backup? Where are your powers of arrest? See I have no proble with neighborhood watch as long as they WATCH, rather than patrol. Everyone should "watch", ie look out the window and call 911 if you see something suspicious or dial 911 if the guy in front of you is weaving erratically but patrol should be left to those with the proper training and certification.

Taking paramedic continuing ed is a pain in the fuckin ass, but I do so because I need to in order to keep my certification so I can be a "real paramedic" instead of "somebody who just wants to do good". If you want to enforce the laws, and to go out on patrol looking for trouble, then become a law enforcement officer.  Im actually thinking of accepting an invitation to become a reserve officer in the aviation unit - because then I get a badge, a Texas Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Certification card, and I will get to log Bell 206 helicopter time (usually $550 an hour) on the taxpayers dime while patrolling. If youre gonna belong to a community watch though , for gods sake follow the rules they exist for your safety and the safety of others....  


< Message edited by DomAviator -- 7/3/2008 11:06:26 AM >

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 10:59:37 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		As usual DA, you prompt a response.

They guy who told me about the booby traps is not stupid, however that does not mean that many state statutes don't exist banning them. But the thing there is if it is true that the ruling allows for them, it could mean a battle to the supreme court. Now you sound like you got money, and do well. But then you did just buy a house a couple years ago. Would you like to go throught the expense of all this litigation ? Plus the fact that many states are declared 'home rule' states and can defy the national Constitution, and if so it would follow that they will write laws that contradict the court's ruling, even if that's what it is.

He is not stupid, but I am even less stupid. I will grill him about this point. I actually don't disagree with you, I would not recommend booby traps. People are much better. Know how to be quiet, let someone borrow your car, fuck a booby trap, build a REAL trap. And leaving someone else to guard your house is bullshit, first of all you have to say that you were letting them live there, and at least half of the people I know are incapable of pulling the trigger because of the stupid social engineering they were not able to discard. This can make for a very bad situation.

But, consider this, electrified fences are legal. If they have the ability to kill, in essence there is no difference.

There is a way, with mirrors properly positioned to protect any opening in your house. With a laser beam, not all that high powered but very small diameter and concentrated, and coherent, that anyone putting their hand through the opening would suffer burns and such, which would make them detectable BTW. The problem is that it is not all that efficient. The energy must be dissipated and in the summer that can be a problem. Also the breaking of the beam is detectable for like a silent alarm.

There are also forms of construction that are very easy to beat. I dunno bout down there but up here they let them build mansions almost with steel studs, styrafoam insulation, no sheathing at all and vinyl siding attached right to the studs. These houses are junk and it is literally easier to break through a wall than a window or door. But the perception of a burglar might not make them aware of this. But these houses are junk for more reasons than just that.

Here's a trip, they cost a fortune to heat and cool, and they know the insulation sucks. So they build them with the high vaulted cielings and thirty foot high vestibules so they can blame it on that to cover up the facts. But it is now I who digress. Back to the point.

Anything you have can be taken from you. By hook, by crook, by legal means, illegal means. It is up to you to defend yourself, which is something else that has been decided by the supreme court. As far as I am concerned, this ruling just expounds on that one, and is intended to allow Citizens to do just that.

And just to show just why I am called the Terminator, booby traps do not have to look like booby traps. A window over the bathtub ? Don't get me started on ideas for that. It could be alot of things. "Well officer, that was a piece of art, and I was cleaning it in the tub" . Things like that. And then tell them I want a copy of the police report because I want the insurance company to pay to remove this dead motherfucker and restore my piece. Think I am bullshitting ? 

Buy a hundred Gintzu knifes and make a stand for them, blades up. When you find a dead motherfucker there, tell the cops that you were in the process of heat treating the cutting edge and tip and needed water to do that. That you would get a torch and heat them and then spray them with water and were going to sell them with a really long warranty. Watch the cop say "Yeah, my olady has been bitching about how quick knives go dull":. Want one ? " Maybe, how much ?" and then I would say "With blood or without ?".

Back to simplicity, the old bucket over the door trick. People, don't use water, use gasoline. And make sure they get soaked with it. I almost used a technique similar against someone and now I am glad I didn't. Alliances changed, everything changed. And the castle law may have prevented it. Somebody pissed me off and I was going to have certain members of the posse, the ones not known around here, to dump five gallons of gasoline on someone's floor, and leave a no smoking sign.

When you want revenge you have to think it out. It has been said that revenge is a dish best served cold, and I agree. You can't figure out a revenge operation until you can think clearly. You may notice that I have very few problems in life. Think first.

Think first, perhaps those are the most important words.

T


(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 11:04:17 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		You got in edgewise, digesting now.

T

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 11:09:42 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Term, the parameters of the crime watch is NOT to confront people.  I talk to nobody. I do not stare- gawk- or get intrustive.

Maybe other folks on CW do.  But I am suppose to be the eyes and ears of police...

Oddly tho saying one is on CW - the PD dispatcher poo poos em off...  But then of 100 members- 3-4 patrol, 80 or a big number use the meetings to bitch and moan about silly stuff.

If you were on the street in this town smoking a joint, I would not make note of it.   If you were decked out in gang colors, signs, hanging with 3 others,  then I get interested.

One gang has many 5 here, another 3.  But there-in lies the rub.

Such gang member can make $50 off a $5 drug - vs big city. AND such dealer can HAVE the corner, 2-3-4 corners= the whole side of town.   They get off the greyhound bus. Do some deals- then buy a car.    

Having lived in a big city- I dont get excited over minor law infarctions.  One cant possibly follow every single law- every single time.

Now to your post-
The guy near you who shot- was held 3 days..it would not be that simple here.   There would be huge legal fees.

It wont go over too well- when I make noise over graphiiti.  Yeah- there is gang grahitti on my street. Just one- hidden in alley.  With graphhiti one must paint over it -soon and often.   Once I let the city know about it- if they dont respond- then I myself will paint over it.  I may even call the newspaper and they can cover it

The castle law TX case- the man DID call 911. So he did that right.

TX works differently then northern states.  Property theft does not give a license to shoot the dude dead. Ir-regardless of what is right or wrong- one needs to check their jurisdiction....   

I dont know how one would fix urban crime. I experienced beiung burglarized so many times- I did not bother to report it.  "they" want to live like that. So I finally moved.

My point is- you can be right- one million per cent right- but at what cost? [attorney, time wise]  --- shewdly  pick your action, as the "system"  is a piece of shit.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 11:26:47 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		DA,  yes- I was wrong- I left as instructed. 

What can CW do?   Piece of info to nab a criminal.    I dont confront people.

KKK?   ouch.      I dont see it that way.    We as a community dont want the gangs here.

Well- I suppose I could lock myself in the house, put up a gate and bars on the window and be a prisoner in my home home.

Or- I can try to be of assistence.

Not having formal training presumes one is useless.

[...  how would it be if I put on gang attire and went around on bike ?]


Every action, decisions one weighs the pros and cons.   So even the rent a cop- has "some" purpose.

But ya know- we Do discourage comunity- one has to shop/spend money to hang out.....

Bob did the volunteer fire thing. I had to listen to that annoying scanner for 7 years.  He never actually went to a fire. Go figure.

You know back in Chicago- one did not tell the post office  or the police when one went out of town.  often THOSE folks were doing the robbing....


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RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 11:31:09 AM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		Im still not understanding the connection between a Community Watch program and castle law. Care to explain?

CD

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 12:38:06 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

What can CW do?   Piece of info to nab a criminal.    I dont confront people.

KKK?   ouch.      I dont see it that way.    We as a community dont want the gangs here.

Well- I suppose I could lock myself in the house, put up a gate and bars on the window and be a prisoner in my home home.

Or- I can try to be of assistence.

Not having formal training presumes one is useless.



PA, while I am NOT defending them - the Ku Klux Klan was in fact the first organized "community watch" in the United States.

They too were a band of community minded citizens who would go out at night to patrol and to protect the public from "them", because they didnt want "them" in their community either...  So they started patrolling to track down the escaped slaves, people who they didnt think should be there, people who didnt step off the sidewalk when they saw a white woman, etc.... Then they stopped patrolling and started dispensing justice, and then they started holding trials, and they got a rope, and well the rest is a pretty ugly chapter in American history which goes on right through the present day...

They actually use that on their T-Shirts. BrittneyLee bought me three T-shirts from Klan fundraisers which I do not wear for extremely obvious reasons. The first has a Klansman on horseback and it says "Sleep Well The Klan is Awake" . The second has two hooded Klansmen on it and it says "The Original Boyz In Da Hoods" and on the bottom it says "We're Watching You". The third has the KKK logo superimposed on a lighted cross and it says "Knight's of the Ku Klux Klan America's First Neighborhood Watch".   

While they are technicaly "funny" (and live in my closet in case I ever need to wear one to selection so as to get out of jury duty! LOL) There is truth to all three - as well as an extremlely ominous warning about what happens when people who arent the legitimate law enforcement authorities, take it upon themseleves to start patrolling the streets. Even private security firms have a long history of abuses - ranging from the "railroad dick" Pinkertons to the former SEALs of Blackwater who retook New Orleans and who fight in Iraq.

If you want to play cop, be a cop. Become a reserve deputy or officer. A community Watch is supposed to WATCH not patrol. There is a reason the PD dispatcher "poo poo's em off" because the real cops see this stuff as a bunch of yahoos playing cop, and taking to the streets like a band of disgruntled former kindergarten hall monitors.

It commands respect from nobody. Im not trying to diss you but really, you even are posing in your vest in your profile pic. Ill be brutally honest, it looks like a probationer wearing a traffic safety vest so as not to be hit by a car while doing community service picking up littler LOL Its not impressive its silly. I dont walk around in my bunker coat saying "wooooo hooooo loook at me" and I am generally never seen wearing anything with a malteese cross or a star of life unless Im at an official function. In another thread slaveboy and I were talking about "scanner frogs", "buffs" and wanna be cops who drive around in surplus crown vics with amber light bars.... Thats how community watch is viewed. There are real cops to patrol, if you want to help them become a reseve officer. Otherwise, watch your own neighborhood. Be aware of comings and goings, if you see a strange van in the neighbors driveway call them... If they dont answer call 911 and say This might be nothing but...." If you see people who dont belong there say "Howdy, ya'll new in this neighborhood?" Putting on a silly vest and patrolling just opens you to riducule from citizens and PD alike....
 
 

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 1:06:04 PM   
MMistress


Posts: 80
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: N.E. Ohio
Status: offline 		I
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

If you want to play cop, be a cop. Become a reserve deputy or officer. A community Watch is supposed to WATCH not patrol. There is a reason the PD dispatcher "poo poo's em off" because the real cops see this stuff as a bunch of yahoos playing cop, and taking to the streets like a band of disgruntled former kindergarten hall monitors.

It commands respect from nobody. Im not trying to diss you but really, you even are posing in your vest in your profile pic. Ill be brutally honest, it looks like a probationer wearing a traffic safety vest so as not to be hit by a car while doing community service picking up littler LOL Its not impressive its silly. I dont walk around in my bunker coat saying "wooooo hooooo loook at me" and I am generally never seen wearing anything with a malteese cross or a star of life unless Im at an official function. In another thread slaveboy and I were talking about "scanner frogs", "buffs" and wanna be cops who drive around in surplus crown vics with amber light bars.... Thats how community watch is viewed. There are real cops to patrol, if you want to help them become a reseve officer. Otherwise, watch your own neighborhood. Be aware of comings and goings, if you see a strange van in the neighbors driveway call them... If they dont answer call 911 and say This might be nothing but...." If you see people who dont belong there say "Howdy, ya'll new in this neighborhood?" Putting on a silly vest and patrolling just opens you to riducule from citizens and PD alike....
  

Hey DA.......Isn't Britt a school teacher?............She bought you KKK shirts?.............. What planet is she from again?

Seriously, we have a family that lives on my street. They have two sons and a daughter all in their late 40's that still live at home under mom and dad's roof. These people we lovingly refer to as "The Melonheads". No shit, they have heads as big as melons and they look like they are from who knows where. They are about 6 ft. tall and weight about 90 pounds each. Very, very intimidating ya know. Anyway, these folks are our self-appointed crime watch team. They are out walking the street like at 3 in the morning looking for what.......I don't know. This is such a rural area that you are lucky if 30 cars go down our street in a day.
Do these folks command our respect? Absolutely not. Do we sleep better at night because they are there "patrolling"? Absolutly not.

The only thing that they accomplish is that the whole street make fun of them. We have talked about gating our street, which would be easy since it's only 3/4 of a mile long. We are going to have the melonheads sitting at each gate. Yeah.........That'll keep out the riff raff.

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The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible. Arthur C. Clarke

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 1:16:42 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I have no plans to un-retire.  I am retired, and as far as I am concerned, permanently.
I have no desire to get into the work snake pit where people snipe at eachother over all the silly things that go on there.

I see nothing wrong with the citizenry owning the streets, owning the city.  Maybe "patrol" means to seek out, and nab.  That is not my function.

While people can guess who they are looking at- they also are looking at the guy who revised the official disaster plan.

Be that as it may- I dont have to work, I dont want to work, and that is how it is.   Further- I cant afford a middle class neighborhood.  Not everyone is blessed to have enormous talents -skills - , not everyone can function in every environment.

Working in groups homes for the mentally ill and mentally retarded, I view all people as having something to contribute to humanity.

Ild much rather be of the mindset- "I can do this, that, etc" instead of "we are doomed".

A few years ago- I thought by today I would be in a wheel chair. Luckily-  the injuries have healed -- compared with days of 20 hours bed ridden, and doing dishes was painfull- riding a bike not possible.

A suburb is not the same frame of reference as a small town. 

In terms of overstepping authority- the law would handle it.  Frankly- most guys DONT want to be in prison.

As to kkk influenced, unlikely.   I brought up all the boys we sent to prison, [4 counties]  there is no disproportionate per race- actually the opposite.

10 years from now. Im pretty sure what the town will be.   Most suburbs cant know that. Not at all.

On looking silly- this is mild -on the "look at me" scale'.  [for me]

The outlook presented tho does remind me of Miller street. [I ran into it]  So Miller street "won". Not so much on the stuff yelled, but via being land-locked by tall industrial fence and rail road tract- 1 way in- 1 way out. So  combined- I wont do the crime watch there.

Two nights ago I chatted with two elderly ladies.  They are petrified to be out.  They were comfort in the thought that someone is trying to do something.

Still- typical society- does think one size fits all - that urban/suburban modes are best for small towns- and that simply isnt true.
We dont have fireman, [paid] we barely have police.  [if you consider 1 on duty to be police]...  city service like garbage- you 'subscribe" to. 

Anyhow- for folks that like Miller street- fine.  But much of the place wants no resemblence of [there]

Maybe some would prefer we go to the dogs like Newark, Reading, Allentown....     (but I dont..)

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 2:25:42 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		(He's jealous of your outfit, 'cuz he wants to be the only one in uniform on collarme )

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RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 3:03:28 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MMistress

Hey DA.......Isn't Britt a school teacher?............She bought you KKK shirts?.............. What planet is she from again?


At the time she was a college student, but yes come August Britt will be teaching in the Texas Public Schools...    Shes from "The Planet Texas" which is a world unto itself... Like I have said to people, "Bud and Sissy done had them a daughter and they named her BrittneyLee". (Reference to the movie Urban Cowboy there...) In Britts defense though - to her thats "the norm" she was brought up in and around that group, doesnt realize that the use of racial slurs is unacceptable in polite speech, and even worships at a "whites only" Baptist church... Its a matter of upbringing and societal norms. She thought the shirts were cool and bought some for herself too... Hell, as the saying goes its the thought that counts - at least now I know how to get out of jury duty! LOL

The melonheads cracked me up! LOL Thats soooo true! I can just picture them LOL.

PaHunk, dont get me wrong Im not saying "stick your head in the sand, do nothing and allow the Phillistines at the gate to over run you."I am saying if youre going to do something, do it right. 

Going back to my volunteer Fire Dept / Emergency Squad activities - I didnt join the "Citizens Bucket Brigade" as a well intentioned water boy, I joined the fire dept and function as a fully certified structural firefighter!

Similarly, I didnt join the "Community Boo Boo Response Team" to rush off to the scene as a good samaritin with a traffic safety vest and a box of bandaids. When I get on that ambulance, or in that ALS fly car, I do so with a EMT-Paramedic certification card in my pocket as a member of the legitimate authority responsble for providing EMS coverage in my community.

There is a definite shortage of police officers, and budget crunches make it hard to employ the officers needed. Hence the reason people volunteer as reserve officers or reserve deputies. So you have to go to the academy two nights a week and every other Saturday - so what? If you want to do the job of a cop, then go for it by going through the right channels. As I said I have been asked to join the reserve where I would serve in the aviation unit. I am seriously considering it as I love to fly helos anyway. However, if I do so I would be serving as a fully certified police officer with a badge on my flightsuit, a gun on my hip and a TCLEOSE card in my wallet. The only difference between a reserve officer and a regular cop is that the reserve officer doesnt get a paycheck. Thats what I'm saying - if you want to do it, then do it right and become one of their brothers in blue instead of the joke of the donut shop where the cops congregate. What MM referred to as "melonheads" marching up and down the street does not do anything except give the rest of us something to laugh at. Your vest will not scare anyone except teenagers who arent legally saavy enough to say "Fuck off wannabe". Hard core gangbangers will cut your balls off just to show you they can.. Between my town, the Harris County Sherrifs Office, and the Constable's I know about 30 guys who have jobs ranging from "retired", to pizza shop owner, to airline captain, to NASA engineer, to bank manager, to dentist who are also fully certified reserve police officers and deputies. Thats 30 free cops in my town that I know of, citizens who are real cops serving as sworn law enforcement officers with badges, guns, handcuffs, arrest powers, and the proper training to do the job. Community Watch isn't doing anything, its putting a bandaid on an evisceration... Thats not putting more cops on the street, good your orange vest empowers you to observe the crime - a reserve badge enables you to shout out "Police! On the ground!"

You mentioned the drug dealers... With your "community watch" vest you can watch them sell it as they flip you the bird and laugh at you. The reserve officer badge will enable you to pull over, buy a baggie, then bust them, throw them up on the wall, cuff them, bash their teeth in "becuse they resisted", then after you pepper spray them and call for "officer needs assistance" 12 other guys from the town PD, HCSO, Contables, DPS, ISD-Police, and other agencies will come and beat the snot out of them, and then you can sit around the station filling out your report getting patted on the back on the "good collar" enjoying your donut as you listen to the mouthiest dealer of the bunch screaming while five other officers from three agencies sodomize him with a billy club in the booking area and the AFIS tech breaks his hand with a maglite because he wont let her print him and another cop tells the rookie no son that aint how ya use a stun gun see this is how ya use it! ZAP Oh ya mean like this? ZAP No son like this.. ZAP Oh I get it like this ZAP... Then he goes off to the jail where things start to get rough for him as the CO tells him "you gonna wish you died in that hurricane boy, you never shoulda brough you ass to Texas" before tossing him into a pod with some hand picked inmates.... (Incidentally no - Im not kidding thats about how Texas justice works.) You tell me, which one makes the streets safer and which is the waste of time....

(in reply to MMistress)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 3:14:06 PM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline 		PA, while I am NOT defending them - the Ku Klux Klan was in fact the first organized "community watch" in the United States.
 
 
     Oh sure, because they had it printed on their shirts, that makes it FACT...sorta how they say  "God hates blacks, jews, catholics, and queers"  and white protestants are superior to all other people in the world.  Must be fact.  i mean if  one is going to go about spouting their bullshit as being so damned factual and all. Just the fact that someone would fall for the obvious lie that they were a "community watch organization" is in essence, defending them....and indirectly, whether intended or not, their disgusting platform.



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(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Castle law - 7/3/2008 3:21:16 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline
This is what I found on California law, dated 2006.
 
"Use of a Firearm or Other Deadly Force in Defense of Life and Body"
 
"The killing of one person by another may be justifiable when necessary to resist the attempt to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime, provided that a reasonable person
in the same or similar situation would believe that (a) the person killed intended to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime; (b) there was imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and (c) the person acted under the belief that such force was necessary to save himself or herself or another from death or a forcible and life-threatening crime. Murder, mayhem, rape, and robbery are examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes."
 

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
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