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Senator Obama on improving veterans care - 7/4/2008 12:39:21 AM

Vendaval

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I am very glad this issue is being discussed during the campaign.

"Obama: we have fallen short in caring for vets"

updated 4:14 p.m. EDT, Thu July 3, 2008
"Meanwhile, Obama detailed his plan to "build a 21st century [Veterans Affairs department] as president."

"It means no more red tape -- it's time to give every service member electronic copies of medical and service records upon discharge. It means no more shortfalls -- we'll fully fund VA health care," he said.

"And it means we'll have a simple principle for veterans sleeping on our streets: zero tolerance for the conditions that permit them to be in those circumstances."

Obama said the country has called on troops and families for so much in recent years, "but we haven't always issued the call responsibly."

The Illinois senator said army deployments need to be restored to 12 months, and training between deployments must be improved.

Obama also stressed the importance of the GI Bill, which provides educational benefits for returning veterans. "

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/03/campaign.wrap/index.html?iref=werecommend

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RE: Senator Obama on improving veterans care - 7/5/2008 9:11:32 AM

Nashvegas

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If you have ever had the joy of government health care (military, veterans or otherwise), you should fear what this idiot would do if he had the chance to be President!

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RE: Senator Obama on improving veterans care - 7/5/2008 9:26:25 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

"And it means we'll have a simple principle for veterans sleeping on our streets: zero tolerance for the conditions that permit them to be in those circumstances."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/03/campaign.wrap/index.html?iref=werecommend

And here is another over the top statement by Barry that shows how small a grasp he has on the nature of the problem.

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RE: Senator Obama on improving veterans care - 7/5/2008 9:38:30 AM

Owner59

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Under Clinton,Bush I,Reagan,etc.The VA worked well.Both my parents and brother use and like the care they get and got at the VA clinics and hospitals.

It`s Bush II`s fault that the VA has become a poor place to get care.You can do a lot of damage with 8 years of neglect and budget cuts,a lot.Add tens of thousands of armless,legless,battered and maimed GIs on top of the administrative malfeasance and you get the present disaster at our main VA facilities..

Bush ran on the notion that government can`t perform well and has been hell bent on making it truly true.By pro-actively gutting and bankrupting every dept he has control over,he`s proving himself right.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/5/2008 9:39:32 AM >

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RE: Senator Obama on improving veterans care - 7/5/2008 10:06:21 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

"And it means we'll have a simple principle for veterans sleeping on our streets: zero tolerance for the conditions that permit them to be in those circumstances."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/03/campaign.wrap/index.html?iref=werecommend

And here is another over the top statement by Barry that shows how small a grasp he has on the nature of the problem.

It's not really that complicated a problem. Most veterans that are homeless are there because of PTSD and, often related, substance abuse. Having the VA actually treat PTSD, instead of this, as well as expanding and improving substance abuse treatment, including dumping the completely ineffectual "12 steps" for effective treatment techniques, would make a big difference in the number of homeless vets.

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RE: Senator Obama on improving veterans care - 7/5/2008 10:40:15 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Most veterans that are homeless are there because of PTSD

         I have to question this assertion. Without for a moment suggesting PTSD isn't a real and serious condition, it CAN easily be thrown on as a convenient label, as ADD gets thrown at every unruly schoolkid. Very often, a drunk is just a drunk.

        How are we going to have "zero tolerance" anyway? Mandatory treatment? Forcing guys who would rather get high than work into some sort of program? Shall we deprive them of the rights they swore to defend for the rest of us?

       Here is part of the problem. Addicts pretty much have to find their personal bottom before they decide to change. I'm sure there are some who hit it the first night they slept outdoors, or in a car. Our military quite intentionally conditions service members to live under much reduced conditions.

      Even the phrase, "zero tolerance." There's that streak of liberal authoritarianism raising its head...

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RE: Senator Obama on improving veterans care - 7/5/2008 11:06:33 AM

DomAviator

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Or if the dregs of humanity would stop trying to blame their substance abuse problems on their military service, we wouldnt have the homeless problem either.

I am not homeless. Neither was my dad. None of the vets in my neighborhood are homeless.... None of us have substance abuse problems. (although I smoke too many cigarettes and there is a couple of guys who drink more than they probably should - but not to the point of compromising their work life. Ie they will come home from work and get a buzz going... Thats probably due to the stress of their careers more so than their time in the service. I know thats why I smoke as much as I do...)

I am sure this will light a few tampon strings but I will say it anyway.... Just because someone is a veteran doesnt mean they aren't a piece of dog shit. Like any group there is good and bad in the military. As an officer I have to say there were enlisted sailors on my ships who were the absolute salt of the earth and there were low life scumbags that we wished we could shoot and toss overboard and then keelhaul the recruiters who sent these pieces of shit to us. Just because someone puts on a uniform doesnt make them a saint. They may be there because a judge gave them a choice join for a dismissal, or because they had nowhere else to go so the military just delayed their homelessness by the length of their enlistment. Ive seen plenty of FTN (Fuck the Navy) tattoos, and I dont think thats something that a dedicated patriotic recruit committed to serving with pride in the Navy would get... Invariably, they were on the slackers....

This is in the days of the all volunteer service, during the draft it was even worse because when you tossed out the net - you brought in all kinds.
That is why we have such problems with the Vietnam vets. Because many of them were pieces of shit hauled in out of the ghettos and trailerparks of america by the draft lottery. They already had substance abuse problems or a predisposition to them, they already were less than prime recruits conscripted in rather than joining out of patriotism. Many of them couldnt even make it in under the standards for todays volunteer service. They would have been homeless drug addicted dregs if we left them on the streets of Harlem or in that Skinhead trailerpark in Idaho, but sending them to Vietnam just delayed the inevitable. Some we actually saved. Some found the military discipline gave them purpose and changed their live and let them escape their destiny.

I am sick to death of hearing about "homeless vets". They are a disgrace to the uniform, and there is no excuse for it. Nobody needs to "help them" they are just plain fucked up and what they need is to cowboy up and get their shit squared away. If they are fit to be called vets, they should have gotten enough discipline instilled in them to enable them to put the crack pipe or bottle down, and to get their asses to work every morning. These are supposed to be tough disciplined unstoppable men who dont know the word "quit", not crybaby candyasses who lay around whining that nobody is helping them and things are tough....

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RE: Senator Obama on improving veterans care - 7/5/2008 11:22:35 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Most veterans that are homeless are there because of PTSD

        I have to question this assertion. Without for a moment suggesting PTSD isn't a real and serious condition, it CAN easily be thrown on as a convenient label, as ADD gets thrown at every unruly schoolkid. Very often, a drunk is just a drunk.

       How are we going to have "zero tolerance" anyway? Mandatory treatment? Forcing guys who would rather get high than work into some sort of program? Shall we deprive them of the rights they swore to defend for the rest of us?

      Here is part of the problem. Addicts pretty much have to find their personal bottom before they decide to change. I'm sure there are some who hit it the first night they slept outdoors, or in a car. Our military quite intentionally conditions service members to live under much reduced conditions.

     Even the phrase, "zero tolerance." There's that streak of liberal authoritarianism raising its head...

And if you hadn't cut the rest of my post you would have my answer.

Addiction, PTSD related or not, is a treatable condition, this is well established in the pertinent literature. By any reasonable definition addicts are a danger to themselves or others and are therefore eligible for commitment. Get them healthy and clean and then let them out and if some go back to addiction and homelessness at least we tried.

The present situation with VA doctors being discouraged from diagnosing PTSD and addiction treatment being primarily the completely worthless 12 step crap is a national disgrace.

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RE: Senator Obama on improving veterans care - 7/5/2008 12:52:40 PM

TheHeretic

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I don't think it was an unfair snip, Ken. PTSD can be completely unrelated to substace abuse, and "treatment" is not a requirement to end addiction. That myth is central to the very 12-step system you go on to deride.

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