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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/6/2008 10:22:12 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I would only support a draft where nobody gets a deferment,nobody.

Two years military w/ full GI benefits or 3 years non-military w/out benefits.Your choice.
                                       



      Make a note in your diary, O59.  While we could certainly quibble about details, we are on the same page here.

       Mandatory national service is something we should take a long, hard look at.

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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/6/2008 11:47:32 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Mandatory national service is something we should take a long, hard look at.

I prefer Heinlein's idea of making the franchise contingent upon a term of public service.  Make citizenship an earned privilege rather than a native birthright.


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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/6/2008 11:57:14 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

This just highlights the fact the republicans are trying the same tactics as they did in the last election to turn the debate away from the real issues and solely into a personality and integrity issue. Then someone could easily argue that a good leader is willing to change his point of view on issues rather than just keep going down the wrong route, he knows deep down to be wrong, in the hope of looking consistent at the end of a terrible period in history.  We usually place high value in those willing to evolve and learn they aren’t always right but for some reason a political leader is only given credit for being consistent even if they are consistently wrong.

IMOSHO.

New and Not Improved

The Gray Lady is a hotbed of Republicanism now?




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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 8:32:16 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I would only support a draft where nobody gets a deferment,nobody.

Two years military w/ full GI benefits or 3 years non-military w/out benefits.Your choice.
                                      
 

     Make a note in your diary, O59.  While we could certainly quibble about details, we are on the same page here.

      Mandatory national service is something we should take a long, hard look at.



Once again...problems are solved in our so-called 'war on terrorism' by the ultra-nationlistic ' regime otherwise known as the military draft or some other form of state compulsary service.

Again we fail to learn from history. The southern establisment during the civil war thought the draft ruined the rebel movement having reduced men from rebels in a cause to nothing more than conscripts...fight or go to jail. (with of course the typical 'capitalist' exemption of wealth...having just enough slaves under 'ownership') Some thought correctly it gave the govt. and the Pres. new imperial powers.

Needler vs Lane 1863 Pa. supreme court ruled the northern draft (also complete with a $200 (?) exemption) equaled involuntary servitude, to the state...declared the law illegal  (1780 Pa. started partial emanicipation) as this was the very civic and business culture the north was at war to eliminate from the entire country, once and for all.

Think of a nation that has a govt. that starts a war and then compels you or your children...to go fight it. Oh, and hope we all survive long enough to pay for it. I do not like either power in the grip of govt. or support such as a draft unless it is a declared war (by the people we elected) and one absolutely required for national survival.

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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 9:06:26 AM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I prefer Heinlein's idea of making the franchise contingent upon a term of public service.  Make citizenship an earned privilege rather than a native birthright.



There was a great documentary about this concept recently.  Short clip here.

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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 10:41:29 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Those damm terrorist bugs!

"Service Guaranties Citizenship"    LOL

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/7/2008 10:45:27 AM >

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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 11:16:57 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I prefer Heinlein's idea of making the franchise contingent upon a term of public service. Make citizenship an earned privilege rather than a native birthright.



There was a great documentary about this concept recently. Short clip here.

Heinlein, not Voerhaven.

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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 11:20:10 AM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		"Service Guaranties Citizenship" is "service guaranties citizenship" in any system,what ever the name is.

Yes?

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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 11:30:36 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

"Service Guaranties Citizenship" is "service guaranties citizenship" in any system,what ever the name is.

Yes?

Perhaps. However, Voerhaven's "Starship Troopers" did not delve into even a quarter of the political philosophizing Heinlein put into the novel; his film version was all muscle and no nuance (which is ironic because Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is a far more muscular text than "Starship Troopers", in my opinion). The novel has several passages that are fascinating explorations of the merits of linking service and citizenship.

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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 12:02:39 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
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Status: offline 		The film differs from the book, naturally.  I thought Kate Bush's Wuthering Heights wasn't a patch on the book, either.

Long time since I read any Heinlein but I doubt he thought such a system was "real-world" viable.  He seemed not to exhibit the irony-bypass evident in some of his readers and on the contrary to deplore it.

And I'm certain he'd vote for Obama in a flash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_5UZfwX0ss&feature=related

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 7/7/2008 12:03:29 PM >

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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 12:49:42 PM   
celticlord2112


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ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
And I'm certain he'd vote for Obama in a flash.

Heilein would laugh hysterically at Obama's candidacy.

He had very little patience for left-wing socialist claptrap, which is all Obama has to offer--tired retreads of rejected socialist ideas.

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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 3:24:31 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
And I'm certain he'd vote for Obama in a flash.

Heilein would laugh hysterically at Obama's candidacy.

He had very little patience for left-wing socialist claptrap, which is all Obama has to offer--tired retreads of rejected socialist ideas.
A little harsh don't You think CL...left -wing socialist claptrap,rejected socialist ideas...are we realy talking about the Presumptive Democratic Candidate or did I miss something

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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 3:50:26 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59



Considering only liberal democrats have suggested and supported a draft(since the 9/11 attacks),you may be correct.

Somehow,the cons think a draft will be an admission of failure a repudiation of present policy.I never understood why that was or why they`re against forming a draft today.

The dems have been yelling for years that the army and national guard are at the breaking point and need relief.

The bushies just hire more Blackwater mercenaries, to hide the extent of the problem.


I would only support a draft where nobody gets a deferment,nobody.

Two years military w/ full GI benefits or 3 years non-military w/out benefits.Your choice.
                                      


The reason I am opposed to a draft, and I can only guess as to others reasoning behind it, is that I liked knowing that the guy next to me was there because he volunteered. 

Let's also not forget the fact that Clinton also hired the "Blackwater mercenaries" (private military organizations) to start things off in the Balkans, as he didn't want to use "regular" military for politcal reasons.

Anyways, back to the original topic at hand,  Sen. Obama.  I am still waiting for you to cite a single law that was authored by the "savior" of the Democratic party, I even moved the standard down to include his time in the Illinois Senate.  I am looking to be able to make a decision on some tangible proof that he has anything resembling the skill to get express his ideas legislatively, or more importantly get the legislature to take those seriously enough to pass them.  Until then it is nothing more than rhetoric.  Charisma and passion are great, but if there is no substance behind it, what is it worth?

Just my opinions, (passes out the salt)
Thadius

P.S. edited to add: http://obama.senate.gov/press/070111-lugar-obama_non/  being the only thing that I know of with him as a co-author.

< Message edited by Thadius -- 7/7/2008 3:55:27 PM >

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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 4:01:03 PM   
Alumbrado


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ORIGINAL: Thadius

Anyways, back to the original topic at hand,  Sen. Obama.  I am still waiting for you to cite a single law that was authored by the "savior" of the Democratic party, I even moved the standard down to include his time in the Illinois Senate.  I am looking to be able to make a decision on some tangible proof that he has anything resembling the skill to get express his ideas legislatively, or more importantly get the legislature to take those seriously enough to pass them.  Until then it is nothing more than rhetoric.  Charisma and passion are great, but if there is no substance behind it, what is it worth?

Just my opinions, (passes out the salt)
Thadius



Thanks for the salt...  but is that really that way things get done in the legislature? 
I thought bribery, thuggery, and chicanery were the stock in trade, and that bills got passed because they were favored by the most powerful lobbys, not because twuly noble and honorable leaders exercised their mythic skills at crafting and negotiating excellent legislation.

By that token wouldn't being on record as a success at that sort of thing run counter to claims of being a change agent?


As is stands right now, primarily because of lack of such evidence, I see the chances of Obama being just another status quo protecting, business as ususal, corrupt career politican as around 90%

With McCain it is 100% certain.

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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 4:15:29 PM   
Thadius


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Status: offline 		Yes that is definitely how things get accomplished (bribery, blackmail, selling of ones first born) by politicians from the southside of Chicago, it is bred into them from a young age.  I didn't even want to get into his voting records (or lack of them 67ish votes out of a possible 162 this Congress), the sad truth is that they fall straight down party lines.  I guess what really scares me is thinking about what favors are owed by the man, and to who.  The only Chicago politician that had a shot at the presidency was the late Mayor Daley, and when offered the nomination he replied "Are you crazy, I have more power here than any president will ever have."

I guess the old saying is true, if you can't dazzle em with brilliance, baffle em with bullshit.  There seems to be plenty of that being shoveled around from both sides.

I should have included some limes and tequilla,
Thadius

< Message edited by Thadius -- 7/7/2008 4:16:23 PM >

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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 5:44:03 PM   
celticlord2112


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A little harsh don't You think CL...left -wing socialist claptrap,rejected socialist ideas...are we realy talking about the Presumptive Democratic Candidate or did I miss something

Not harsh enough.  Obama is a firm believer in the nanny state.  He wants Big Brother to take care of you.

I want Big Brother to take that Chicago clown and the both of them go straight to Hell.


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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 6:48:52 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

A little harsh don't You think CL...left -wing socialist claptrap,rejected socialist ideas...are we realy talking about the Presumptive Democratic Candidate or did I miss something

Not harsh enough.  Obama is a firm believer in the nanny state.  He wants Big Brother to take care of you.

I want Big Brother to take that Chicago clown and the both of them go straight to Hell.

Not sure same old same old(McCain) is going to work this Nov.So unless Your willing to concede hell's adress is now 1600 Hundred Pennsylvania Ave. I think Your shit out of luck with that.

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 7/7/2008 6:49:31 PM >

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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 7:02:54 PM   
celticlord2112


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Not sure same old same old(McCain) is going to work this Nov.So unless Your willing to concede hell's adress is now 1600 Hundred Pennsylvania Ave. I think Your shit out of luck with that.

If I am....we all are.

Obama would be a Presidential farce and a bigger disaster for this country than Jimmy Carter.


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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 7:07:31 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Not sure same old same old(McCain) is going to work this Nov.So unless Your willing to concede hell's adress is now 1600 Hundred Pennsylvania Ave. I think Your shit out of luck with that.

If I am....we all are.

Obama would be a Presidential farce and a bigger disaster for this country than Jimmy Carter.



Awww, come on.  Carter was a great president... Well, I guess my sarcasm only goes so far.  The Obamateers can't even give a legislative accomplishment, oh wait I forget we aren't supposed to mention that.... Pass the kool-aid, my glass is empty.

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RE: Obama: Just another lying, flip-flopping, politica... - 7/7/2008 7:08:24 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Not sure same old same old(McCain) is going to work this Nov.So unless Your willing to concede hell's adress is now 1600 Hundred Pennsylvania Ave. I think Your shit out of luck with that.

If I am....we all are.

Obama would be a Presidential farce and a bigger disaster for this country than Jimmy Carter.

And McCain would be the second coming of what?

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