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RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/7/2008 10:04:02 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

I am curious. Do people on this board consider cross-dressing a kink?  If you think it is a kink, do you allow it at your local munches? 

CD


It would depend on the person themselves.  Yes it can be.  It doesn't have to be.
If they wore acceptable clothing (depending on the establishment) they would not be denied access, just as any other person and their dress are not.
 
the.dark.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/7/2008 11:38:03 AM   
SkinnyDip


Posts: 19
Joined: 6/9/2008
From: 3rd Rock from the Sun
Status: offline 		This is how I see it...

If X item of clothing is something you could, would, or do wear in most aspects of your life (grocery store, work, place of worship, baby shower, post office, mall, bank, etc) then no, it's not a kink no matter what gender the item of clothing was intended for by the clothing manufacturer and is perfectly acceptable at a Munch.

If on the other hand, X item of clothing is only for "play" and you don't wear it most of the time and you only wear it under circumstances that are sexualized (even if it's going to the grocery store as part of a scene) then it is a kink and shouldn't be worn at Munches.
 
*edited because my font went wonky

< Message edited by SkinnyDip -- 7/7/2008 11:39:24 AM >

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RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/7/2008 12:48:13 PM   
DelilahDeb


Posts: 429
Joined: 1/27/2008
Status: offline 		Kink or not kink, for a munch—routinely held in vanilla restaurant space—the dress code is "don't squick the vanillas".
Now I'm not saying that it's entirely fair that I can come to a munch in a dressy dress and heels and boa, or jeans and scruffy sweatshirt and waffle stompers, as I choose, while men do not have that degree of choice (the range of formality, yes; the gender-bent range, no). But we live in the world we live in; anyone who thinks that life is fair is pipe-dreaming.

Lady Delilah Deb

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/7/2008 6:22:30 PM   
Racquelle


Posts: 600
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline 		Ok, let's throw out the notion of what WE allow at OUR events and talk about the public in general.  Do you occasionally see a man in woman's attire in public?  Certainly.  Do you occasionally see a woman in full shibari being lead around by her nipple rings?  My guess is, probably not.  I think most of us have a sense of what is and isn't appropriate in a fully public setting such as restaurant where we happen to have reserved a couple of tables for a munch.  The shame is that anyone has to be told - "no - you can't have your pony tethered to the bench outside the restaurant - and no, I don't care if his new tail plug was very expensive."

Is the "real question" about why one kink is more acceptable to express openly than another?  All I can really say to that is, WE are as much a part of the community from which "community standards" are derived.  How do YOU feel about it?  What do YOU think is acceptable?

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/7/2008 6:31:56 PM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SkinnyDip

This is how I see it...

If X item of clothing is something you could, would, or do wear in most aspects of your life (grocery store, work, place of worship, baby shower, post office, mall, bank, etc) then no, it's not a kink no matter what gender the item of clothing was intended for by the clothing manufacturer and is perfectly acceptable at a Munch.

If on the other hand, X item of clothing is only for "play" and you don't wear it most of the time and you only wear it under circumstances that are sexualized (even if it's going to the grocery store as part of a scene) then it is a kink and shouldn't be worn at Munches.
 
*edited because my font went wonky


But. I've seen people wear collars and corsets as well as thigh high boots AND rubber and latex in public settings. The people who refer to themselves as "Goths" are one good example. So a Goth type individual who read these rules would be able to wear that type of clothing to a munch according to your definition?


CD

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(in reply to SkinnyDip)
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RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/7/2008 6:50:27 PM   
Racquelle


Posts: 600
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

But. I've seen people wear collars and corsets as well as thigh high boots AND rubber and latex in public settings. The people who refer to themselves as "Goths" are one good example. So a Goth type individual who read these rules would be able to wear that type of clothing to a munch according to your definition?


CD
  Would that Goth-kid draw a kind of attantion that those at a munch might not wish to draw?  Would Goth-kid's  Mom complain to the high-heavens if kid goes out of the house dressed that way?

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/7/2008 6:58:16 PM   
SkinnyDip


Posts: 19
Joined: 6/9/2008
From: 3rd Rock from the Sun
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

But. I've seen people wear collars and corsets as well as thigh high boots AND rubber and latex in public settings. The people who refer to themselves as "Goths" are one good example. So a Goth type individual who read these rules would be able to wear that type of clothing to a munch according to your definition?


CD


According to my definition that's correct. Goth type individuals eat out at family restaurants all of the time. I think it's up to the establishment to refuse service. There is one such gentleman who works in my office building who wears a variety of velvet blazers, smoking jackets, and leather pants to work. Some people would consider that fetish wear. I don't because it is simply his style.

I have an issue with people who blatantly use their attire (or lack of attire) to sexualize a situation without the consent of others in the situation. That's why lots of places have dress codes. They avoid the issue entirely by making expectations clear.

If not wearing attention getting attire is so important at a munch then a dress code should be enforced, however, I think that a man in a white polyester disco suit is going to draw just as much attention as a man dressed in typical goth attire. It's all just perspective on what is acceptable and what isn't.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/7/2008 7:57:09 PM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Racquelle
All I can really say to that is, WE are as much a part of the community from which "community standards" are derived. 


Hear hear!

Hell, i've been called "Ma'am" wearing jeans and a T-shirt, and i'm not even close to passable (i just have long hair and a bunch of earrings, and live in an area with a lot of people who need their eyes examined).  And i'll cheerfully wear T-shirts with whip-wielding, bare-chested Demonesses and such to just about every place other than my office.... grocery store, library, amusement parks, whatever. And i never remove my stainless-steel collar, which i usually wear outside my shirt.

So what should my "non-fetish" dress code be?

(in reply to Racquelle)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/7/2008 10:20:25 PM   
TwoDommeDivas


Posts: 36
Joined: 7/7/2008
Status: offline 		Interesting.  Being new here, I'm not sure of how these discussions go.  But why has no one mentioned women who "crossdress"?  For instance, I'm sitting here in my home typing this post, and I am wearing a man's tee (from the 2004 Boston Marathon) and men's shorts.  Crossdressing?  Kink?  Could I attend a munch?

(in reply to petdave)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/7/2008 10:29:36 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline 		There's a world of difference between a femsub showing up at a public 'munch' in diapers and a bonnet and a guy who feels comfy dressing and looking female.

If the CD wears 'public appropriate attire' I'd say it's fine. If, on the other hand, he chose a bright pink frilly satin sissy maid uniform...that would be....NOT ok.

But many CD's and TV's dress to BE or to appear as female as possible. I knew someone here who dressed up for the public munches. He/she was going through.....how shall I say....a confusing time. The thing is "he" looked pretty damned good as a "she" and quite a few people had no idea. "She" had sub boys offering to be her footstool......Dom guys using their swarmy "well hello there" kinda voice, etc.

The only time "she" stood out at the munch in what could be called a 'bad way' was when she wore a vinyl mini/gothic outfit. Unfortunately, she was THE first to arrive at the event and the skirt was WAY short. Real girls all over the country dress sluttier than this, but at this time, on this night, in this restaurant "she" stood out like a sore thumb.....only until the rest of the group arrived. "She" just had to stay seated for awhile until then.

That story always cracked me up when I heard it.

So, I'd say dressed the way a normal woman would dress in that situation = OK. Dressed like a little sissy maid = NOT ok.

< Message edited by Smith117 -- 7/7/2008 10:30:02 PM >

(in reply to TwoDommeDivas)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/8/2008 5:08:02 AM   
Madame4a


Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline 		I did... I mentioned my boi

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/8/2008 5:53:37 AM   
tasha_tart


Posts: 385
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		I suppose whether or not it's a kink is in the eye of the beholder.  As to it being a fetish, fetish is something that does have a textbook description.  One definition of a fetish is something required or strongly preferred for sexual excitement.
 
I feel that the organizer of a munch should be the one to set the rules; it is his or her event.  I've been to several different munches, a few of them as a regular, in several different cities.  I went to these in both boy and girl mode.  Before going to a new munch in girl mode, I would check with the organizer; none ever objected.
 
My only problem came from an organizer of a munch I'd attended several times in girl mode.  He asked me to leave because my "fet wear" (his term) was upsetting the other munch attendees.  Strangely enough, the 20-somethings in full goth-type regalia (spiked collar, wristbands, etc) did not offend the new dress code; my denim skirt and tee shirt did.  His munch, his rules...and I have no problem abiding by them.
 
I never considered my crossdressing a fetish.  I've never needed it to achieve sexual arousal or release.  It is an expression of a significant part of who I am.  I've been out to vanilla establishments, outside of munches, with friends and it's never been for any sort of thrill.  It's just going out with friends who accept me for who I am.
 
Tasha

Edited to add:
 
When attending munches "dressed" my clothing, makeup, and accessories were appropriate for the venue.  I never had any issues with staff or other patrons.  I am reasonably passable, or at least not totally sticking out like a sore thumb, and was not out to be the centre of attention.
 
I also have to say that none of the CDs i know, and I know quite a few, are crossdressing as a fetish.  It's just part of who they are.  It is sad to see how much animosity exists towards CDs, though I suppose it shouldn't be a surprise.

< Message edited by tasha_tart -- 7/8/2008 6:07:56 AM >

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/8/2008 7:20:53 AM   
MsArcEnCiel


Posts: 17
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		i just wish to point out that culture defines lots of the norms we live under. i guess most of the replies on this thread come from people who live in North America and as far as i am aware gender norms there are pretty dicotomic (there are two genders, which are opposites to each other - one person can only be of one gender). But, that is not how it goes everywhere around the world.

It often upsets me that there is such a double standard in many countries when it comes to clothing. Women can wear jeans, sneakers, t-shirts and many other pieces of clothings (though there still are some limitations on when one becomes dubious), but men do not have such freedoms. Man wearing a skirt is much often quickly seen or interperted as a sexual fetish as opposed to a woman wearing "mens" t-shirt.

i feel that gender and sexuality are linked and i guess testosterone makes sexuality stronger and sometimes more uncontrollable force to live with. And when you live in community that makes you suppress a part of yourself, part of your identity, in every day life because it breaks gender norms i can see how the sexual energy that is linked to gender keeps biling up inside. And when you allow yourself to express that part of yourself, it sometimes loosens a lot of sexual energy too, even if it isn't a sexual fetish. i feel there is a lot of misconseptions about trans-people. Especially about people who identify as men who break gender norms.

Maybe as a sum up i could say to the OP that this is a hard question. It deals with a persons primary identity (gender identity). Where to draw the line? An easy an quick answer that comes to mind is comfort levels, but are the comfort levels always right?

There was a lot of talk about being passable in this thread. It is a fact that not all transsexual/transgendered women are passable. And for some it goes over their comfort level to be in a gathering with someone who draws eyes. Should trans-people be excluded because they break comfort levels? What about disabled people or different ethnicities?

One big difference i can think between Finland and North American countries based on this thread is, that in here companies are not allowed to choose their customers. You are not permitted to discriminate people based on gender, ethnicity, disabilities and so on. And in here transgendered/transsexual people are protected by law from discrimination aswell.

heidi

(in reply to tasha_tart)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/10/2008 6:49:04 PM   
tasha_tart


Posts: 385
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsArcEnCiel


One big difference i can think between Finland and North American countries based on this thread is, that in here companies are not allowed to choose their customers. You are not permitted to discriminate people based on gender, ethnicity, disabilities and so on. And in here transgendered/transsexual people are protected by law from discrimination aswell.

heidi




In Canada most, if not all, of the assorted provincial and federal human rights bodies include discrimination on the basis of gender identity in their prohibitions of sex discrimination.  In Ontario this includes people who are transgender, transsexual, intersexed, and cross-dressers.  I'm not sure if other provinces have it explicitly written into the law, but Ontario's human rights commision has considered it as a form of sex discrimination for several years.
 
As an aside, anyone concerned about LGBTQ issues in Canada should consider supporting Egale Canada.
 
Tasha

((edited to reflect a bit more research, and an apple martini))

< Message edited by tasha_tart -- 7/10/2008 7:42:48 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/10/2008 6:55:32 PM   
ServingGirrl


Posts: 115
Joined: 10/10/2007
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		We're pretty well covered legally here in Australia as well.   It wasn't so when i transitioned 20-odd years ago but these days, even if people did happen to pick up on my past, the very least i could expect (and demand) would be equal and polite treatment.   Frankly, as has beem mentioned in a number of the posts here, if you are making an attempt at being dressed appropriate for your age and the setting you are in, very few people have a problem with CD's anyway.   Trans folk (and Intersexed folk like me) have a bit harder road to walk because they never get to take it off and put it back in a suitcase but even those TS people i keep in touch with tell me life for them is pretty laid back here.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/10/2008 7:34:22 PM   
tasha_tart


Posts: 385
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		To expand on my previous post:
 
I'm most familiar with Ontario's laws, but I took a moment to refresh my memory.  The human rights commision states:
 

Individuals who are discriminated against or harassed because of gender identity are legally protected under the ground of ‘sex’. This includes transsexual, transgender, and intersex persons, cross-dressers, and others whose gender identity or expression is, or is seen to be, at variance with their birth-identified sex.
 

They also list what may be the most understanding definition of "cross-dresser" that I have ever read:
 

An individual who dresses in the clothes of the opposite sex for emotional satisfaction and psychological well-being.
 

Take that, DSM IV!  
 
For anyone interested in further reading on Ontario's policy, I'd suggest "GENDER IDENTITY: Your Rights and Responsibilities" and "Policy on Discrimination and Harassment because of Gender Identity". 
 
The latter gives quite a bit of background of the evolution of gender identity as a prohibited ground for discrimination.  While other jurisdictions obviously have their own rules, anyone of an activist bent might find some useful tidbits.
 
Now that I've pretty much totally strayed from the OP's question, I'm going to revisit it.  In Ontario, a bar or restaurant cannot refuse service to someone based on gender identity.  I'm not totally sure how that might impact a munch organizer who use a public part of the premises for a munch, or whether using a separate room for the munch alone changes things. 

Tasha

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/10/2008 7:40:47 PM   
ServingGirrl


Posts: 115
Joined: 10/10/2007
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Tasha, we in Victoria, Australia solved that issue by organising, lobbying for and getting passed the Gender Recognition Act (2000) which specifically states that a CD or other gender variant person may legally and at all times use the rest room suitable to the gender they are at that time affirming so, here in my home town, a CD at a munch who was dressed en femme would automatically use - and be expected to use - the female rest room.   Getting the Act passed was a huge task but worth every minute of the effort.

(in reply to tasha_tart)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Cross-dressing question. - 7/10/2008 7:52:08 PM   
tasha_tart


Posts: 385
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		While government here has not gone quite that far, the practices and policies of the human rights commissions are still fairly solid protections.  Of course it still takes someone with enough gumption to stand up for his or her rights, and the patience to let the system run its course.  Ontario has recently made changes to ensure that anyone making a complaint has legal representation regardless of income.
 
One of the examples cited in the second link I posted covers the washroom issue.  On a less common issue, a trans person can choose the sex of police officer who strip searches them.
 
Tasha

(in reply to ServingGirrl)
Profile   Post #: 38
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