The Conversation

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TermsConditions -> The Conversation (7/7/2008 5:21:02 AM)
Summary At long last, I want to have The Conversation with my spouse revealing my subbish nature. I'm looking for advice regarding the scope of this initial conversation. Target date is July 14. More information Eight months ago I received wonderful advice from many here in regards to my frustration with my subbish feelings and frustration with my relationship with my spouse. We had become distant, non-communicative, and unaffectionate one-another. Consensus was that our ‘nilla relationship needed to be fixed first before the topic of D/s could be addressed – and this made perfect sense. How can you communicate about anything if you are not communicating at all? In the last eight months many things have changed. I’ve become much more self-confident and am developing a more clear idea of what it is that I want. Our relationship has improved greatly. Due in part to my attention and encouragement, she has begun taking better care of herself. She’s begun dialing back her outside commitments a bit and taking time to do some things for her benefit. Our level of intimacy – including sex – has greatly increased. Without speaking to her about it, I’ve cast myself as her “secret sub” and have taken on more and more of the household responsibilities including planning and cooking the evening meal, doing laundry, keeping the kitchen clean and the dishwasher empty, picking up around the house, dusting vacuuming and keeping the bathrooms clean. I've made myself more available to her and our family by coming home from the office earlier and on a more regular schedule. In an effort to "prime" what I see as dommish tendencies I have provided her with frequent massages and foot rubs and no pressure from me for sex. I've been attempting to separate sex from intimacy. Further I've been emphasizing her pleasure. The results have been pretty darn good. She takes to being served. She has begun to allow me to provide her pleasure for the sake of her pleasure and not my own. Still missing is my confession to her regarding my subbish nature and needs. Right now I'm going through all the motions but there is no explicit link of my subservience to submission. I think that missing link is key to placating the sub-thing in my brain. And to re-assure her. A window of opportunity is opening (kids out of town) and I'm thinking Bastille Day (July 14) might be a good day to "jump off" and have The Conversation. I am very apprehensive regarding The Conversation. Can anyone please share practical advice for the scope of The Conversation? I'm working on an outline. This is what I have so far: I am very happy with how things have been going. I must be honest with you regarding some of my motivations. I am very reluctant to share these with you but I am more and more troubled by concealing part of myself from you. Here's where I start to sputter. How far do I go on the first conversation? Does anyone have first hand experience in such a conversation in either the D or s role? Two things are formost in my mind. I am fearful of outright rejection and disgust on her part. And I do not want my "need to sub" to be a burden to her. I'm seeing the other end of the tunnel, or a train. Either way this part is going to be over soon. Thx! TnC

Sylverdawn -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 5:52:24 AM)
Have you considered finding a kinky friendly therapist and dealing with this issue in a safe environment with a professional who knows how to handle what could be a diffcult, tricky, and emotional conversation. Or, in the event you dont want to take her go yourself and ask for advice and or an outline as to brooch the subject and handle the questions and emotions that result.

RedMagic1 -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 6:16:18 AM)
God I wish more sub men in vanilla relationships took this approach. Yeah, be honest about your motivations. Your motivation is that you fucking love her. Don't make it a "I've been keeping a big secret from you all these years" thing. Make it a "I've come to some realizations about how I could be a better husband, and I find myself really hungry for it. It's something that's been building in me for many years." You are adding to the relationship, to make it even healthier. Wives know stuff, even if they don't want to admit it to themselves. I bet she knows you cruise that pervo CollarMe web site, for example. Sicko. Good luck. I am sure you both will do fine.

LaMistressa -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 6:28:29 AM)
In my opinion, it is also important to let her know repeatedly how much you love her, and that is why you are sharing this secret with her. It's also important to let her know that you are not looking for the stereotyped Domme found in movies, porn and television -- that you seek her guidance and her strength to give you direction. (Of course, unless you are seeking "Mistress Mandy" with the bullwhip, then...well, good luck with that.) I think a lot of vanilla women panic when first hearing this topic brought up, thinking either a.) you are having an affair, b.) you will want her to do something she has no interest in c.) you're going to want her to dress in ways that are uncomfortable or degrading to her, and most importantly d.) you no longer love her, or that you are somehow bored with her and that is why your interests have "turned" towards dominance and submission. Choose your words carefully when talking to her, and emphasize what you do love about her and how you are being vulnerable by sharing more of yourself with her. There's a really good book called "When Someone You Love is Kinky" that might help you and her with this conversation. It is available on Amazon. Good luck.

Dari -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 6:40:25 AM)
What a lovely post. It's refreshing to find someone who focuses first on the relationship as a whole, before drilling down into specific wants and needs. From a female perspective, a couple of things: 1) I'm with Red on this one. I hope your motivation to take care of her, to see to her needs, and to act in a more submissive role isn't that you want the kink, it's that you love her, and you want to do things to make her happy. Keep in mind - what you specifically choose to do is motivated by who you are on the inside, and your submissive nature, but that you're doing those things for her is because you love her. I cannot stress enough how important it is to separate the two - make sure she knows that you love her for herself. The way you express that love is firmly related to the D/s side of things, but the reasons you love her have to be because of who and what she is, not because you have a need to serve someone, anyone. And while that's not the sense I'm getting from your original post - it never ever hurts to confirm this. 2) From what you say you've started to do, it sounds like you didn't do much of this before. She could be assuming that you've decided to take care of your share around the house, and give her some much-needed relief and help. Continuing to take on more responsibilities is the natural continuation of what you've begun, yes - but again, your motivation should be because you love her and want to take care of her. Sometimes it's difficult, at least at first, for a previously vanilla woman to get used to having someone do the things that she has normally been responsible for doing. Make sure you don't give the impression that she's been doing a bad job. Emphasize how much better your relationship has gotten over the last 8 months. How happy you are as you see how she's relaxing, blossoming, and able to spend time enjoying life again. Focus on the fact that you're wanting to make sure she's even happier than she was, and that you're looking forward to making things better for her. 3) Your motivations, well - I would save that for last, coupled with another healthy serving of "I love you and you're amazing." And I wouldn't go too far into any specific kinks of BDSM, more focus on the D/s part of things. The kink can come later, once your relationship and roles are established. Discuss the need for open communication too - that's going to be a part that needs to open up and continue as you begin to walk down this path in the open. Speaking to her as her partner, husband, and friend, calmly and rationally about these things may embarass her at first, but if you can keep calm through it, you'll convince her this isn't just some wierd thing you're trying - that it's real, and it's just another facet of who you are. You're not really revealing anything shocking or startling - and if she protests, ask her how she's been enjoying those massages... Let us know how it goes! Just keep a level head and you'll do just fine. I wouldn't worry about "coming out" with hidden motivations, so much as just expanding the relationship and adding another flavor that will mesh with what you've currently got cooking.

DominantJenny -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 6:44:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TermsConditions snip for brevity Can anyone please share practical advice for the scope of The Conversation? I'm working on an outline. This is what I have so far: I am very happy with how things have been going. I must be honest with you regarding some of my motivations. I am very reluctant to share these with you but I am more and more troubled by concealing part of myself from you. Here's where I start to sputter. How far do I go on the first conversation? Does anyone have first hand experience in such a conversation in either the D or s role? Two things are formost in my mind. I am fearful of outright rejection and disgust on her part. And I do not want my "need to sub" to be a burden to her. I'm seeing the other end of the tunnel, or a train. Either way this part is going to be over soon. Thx! TnC First, HUGS. I really hope this goes as well for you as it did for me, hon. Okay, so. After the "concealing part of myself" part, I would get directly to explaining that you are referring to your desire (and I'm using that word specifically) to be submissive to her. Nothing arouses you sexually (I'm assuming here) like being submissive. (Go on to explain later about how it isn't just sexual for you, if that's the case. You don't want to overwhelm her/confuse her any more than necessary.) If you are okay with making the statement, now is the time to say that, if it turns out to not be for her, you will accept that and maintain the commitment you made to start with and try to figure out some way, WITH AND ONLY WITH HER APPROVAL, to make it okay. You are just asking her to give this a chance. Then ask if she knows what you are talking about, what she thinks or knows, and deal with precisely what she says. If she says, "you mean you want me to call you names?", explain how you feel about that. (In my case, humiliation was not a big interest back then; I assured him I CERTAINLY didn't want to do the whole "worthless worm" thing, and that's actually still true today.) Be honest. Be specific. Encourage her to be specific. Do NOT leave things to her imagination; her frame of reference is probably such that her imagination will do BAD things. Have some websites (like this one) ready to show to her, and/or print up some things that speak to what you want and hopefully will appeal to her. (Feel free to use anything I've written! [:)]) If she wants to stop talking at any point in this, find out why. While you don't want to pressure her to converse if she's not comfortable, you don't want to let the conversation stop if she is still operating under any misapprehensions/misunderstandings. Gently keep plugging away, explaining that you just want to make sure she is reacting to what you are really talking about and not images she's gotten from TV/movies/society/etc. If she's getting it and wants to stop to think, again offer some resources if she wants them and back off. Emphasize always that you are just asking to TRY it; you are not demanding and you are willing to go as slowly as she needs to. Back up your words. Be incredibly patient. Try not to take her reactions and confusions personally. Keep it pretty low-key. Make yourself vulnerable, show her that you are putting a lot of trust in her and will respect how she wants to proceed. You DO face outright rejection. Be prepared for that. Understand that it's not YOU, it's what she knows about the sexuality, which is probably horribly skewed. If she does flat-out reject it before you can get anywhere, try very hard to make that point, tell her you have these things that will show that it's not the same as she things. Have some good poetic, vanilla-friendly type realistic descriptions on hand and ask her to at least read/listen to those if she won't let you talk the way I mention above. Hopefully, this will lead to that. Finally, make it clear (assuming this is the truth; NEVER lie) that you love her regardless, that you will fully hold up your end of the relationship, that you are hoping to enhance the relationship for BOTH of you and only want this if it does that, and so on. Good luck!

LadyHibiscus -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 6:46:35 AM)
Terms, I am totally terrified on your behalf! I am so impressed with your courage! You've done all the right things so far (and THANK YOU, you are officially the first person I know of to actually follow the advice...) and I am sure all will go brilliantly!

angelikaJ -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 6:55:52 AM)
thoughts: IF you omit the kink language and tell her that you just find it very fulfilling to do these things for her...that you love being able to show her your level of committment in these ways and that you want to continue serving her and the relationship this way...and perhaps ask her what her heart's desires are... I know you want to be open with her and I think that is wonderful...but perhaps what you want is to begin a dialogue... TnC...I do not want to dissuade you from doing what you feel is right/ what will get your needs met...the need to NOT hide/be true to yourself is very important. I am proud of you!

undergroundsea -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 7:03:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TermsConditions I am very happy with how things have been going. I must be honest with you regarding some of my motivations. I am very reluctant to share these with you but I am more and more troubled by concealing part of myself from you. Here's where I start to sputter. How far do I go on the first conversation? Does anyone have first hand experience in such a conversation in either the D or s role? Random thoughts follow. There is plenty of literature available in the gay community about tips for coming out. Consulting that material might lead to useful ideas. quote: I must be honest with you regarding some of my motivations. Words are powerful and the choice of words can be important. The words in italics might create internal noise inside her head (What's going on? What motivations? What has he been doing?) which might distract her and hinder the communication. Instead saying, "I would like to let you know why I love doing what I do for you," would ease the path for communication. quote: I am very reluctant to share these with you but I am more and more troubled by concealing part of myself from you. Here also the choice of words can help how effectively the message reaches her with minimal internal noise. I wonder how it would sound if you instead said, this is an important part of me and I have always wanted to tell you about it. I wasn't sure how you would respond. It seems like you have had recent conversations about changing and improving your relationship. How about starting with a conversation to discuss the results of efforts you two have made, and how she feels about what has been happening? This conversation can then lead to a transition to the topic you wish to cover: I have enjoyed doing all these things you just mentioned. And I would like to tell you why I love doing them for you. The reason is I simply love to please you and treat you like a queen. And I am about to tell you more about what I mean. I have been wanting to tell you but I was not sure how you would feel about it because what I like goes against macho behavior men are taught by society. I think our relationship has grown and we are at a time that I now feel I can tell you. But because what I like is a little different than the norm, I am a little nervous about this conversation. I am nervous because I don't want to make you uncomfortable and I am nervous because emotionally I am in a place where I am hoping for acceptance from you. quote: How far do I go on the first conversation? I think baby steps are best. So if you like watersports, I'd save that for another time ;-) I would just speak about it in general terms and see how she responds. I would see how enthusiastic or excited she seems and let that determine how much detail to include. If she seems unsure about what she is hearing, I would speak in general terms with analogies she can understand and let her digest it, and save more details for subsequent conversations. For example: For me, you come first. And I express this priority or heirarchy in different ways. I used the word queen. That means different things. It means I like to please you. It means your wish becomes my command (I think here also choice of words matters. Your wish becomes my command will be easier to digest in this initial conversation than saying I want to obey your orders). It implies a submission. And there are different ways and acts through which I like to express this. Doing the things I have been doing recently are some such ways..... One reason guys like me are hesitant to tell others this information is because there are inaccurate stereotypes out there, and that we don't want to be mistaken for having low esteem, or for being weak. This is not what drives my submission. It simply creates a good feeling and/or sexual arousal for me. Just like you feel good when we do ___ or when you do __ for __, I feel good when we do ___ or when I do __ for you. And these expressions of submission become part of my relationship expression. When I kiss you, what am I doing? It is a relationship expression. I am expressing how I feel about you and that I am doing what I like to do to express my romantic relationship. These other activities are also relationship expressions for me. They may look different and sound different but they come from similar places deep inside and carry similar meaning about how I feel about you. Hope that helps. Best wishes to you. Cheers, Sea

DominantJenny -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 7:15:29 AM)
I notice a difference between my suggestions and those of others that I want to address. Assuming this is primarily about your sexuality, I STRONGLY encourage you to be up front about that. Women know when you are holding something back (unless they are unusually thick, anyway) and it will COMPLETELY undermine her trust if she feels you are holding something back or trying to "couch it in terms that will get what you want". Don't give her detailed fantasies or anything like that, of course, but DO give her some viable "first contact" type scenarios. (I asked my guy to just let me spank him, for example. I made it clear that we would do nothing else, just do that and see how he felt about it.) Try to cut your desires down to a bare-bones, base-line this-would-be-good-enough kind of thing, as non-threatening as it can honestly be, to present if you get that far in the conversation. If she is insulted by the idea that you've been "secretly submitting", give an unqualified apology. Explain that you just didn't know how to bring this up to her, and were working up your courage to do so. Promise that you will CONTINUE to keep the positive changes REGARDLESS. Apologize again and then move on if she'll let you. Listen to her at all times, be highly sensitive and responsive at all times. But be honest.

slvemike4u -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 7:33:54 AM)
Good Luck ,You seem to be getting some fine advice and to have already followed some of it.A long time ago ,without the benefit of such fine advice before I myself was aware of this site I had my "conversation" with my then wife.As evidenced by my subsequent divorce my "conversation" did not lead to the Female led relationship I was looking for,but than again I did not have the benifit of all these Lovely Lady Dommes to guide me and help me in my efforts.You have a wealth of knowledge and insight at Your disposal,make use of it and be careful Your lifetime in service might just be around the proverbial corner....Again Good Luck hope I hope everything goes well..

ThundersCry -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 8:19:57 AM)
As fookin` twisted as you are dude... I bet she calls ...411...gets some info then dials ...911 They are gonna take ya away...TC <grins> Actually...good luck..SylverDawn had a good thought...if thats an...option.

subtex -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 9:04:52 AM)
Here are a couple of websites you might want to check out if you haven't already. Around Her Finger is a site devoted to this subject. It is designed to be vanilla friendly so that people can use it as a resource. As a matter of fact it has a mens section and a womans section. Venus On Top is dedicated to FLR (Female Led Relationships) and doesn't have any scary kink stuff. Good luck. http://www.aroundherfinger.com/ http://www.venus-on-top.com/ Bill

pixelslave -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 9:58:27 AM)
Terms, I'm generally in agreement with what Sea has said in terms (no pun intended) of the importance of the phrasing you use when you approach your wife. Using non-judgmental or "non-loaded" phrases that she may react to in a negative fashion will be very important. Using words and phrases which are factual that don't convey or implicit demands or that will elicit strong emotional responses from her will be essential. You might want to read "Being Me, Loving You" by Marshall Rosenberg PhD, ISBN 1-8920005-16-6 for a better idea and to get some examples of the language to use that I'm speaking of. I must give Sea credit for pointing me to Marshall's books on Non Violent Communication, for which I'm very grateful. [:D] Do you know what you want from her after you tell her? I think this will also be very important. I suggest you be prepared to ask for what you would like from her after sharing the information you've hidden for so long as she may be likely ask what you may want or are expecting from her following your disclosure. Will you be looking for acceptance, empathy, validation, a hug, or something else? How will you feel if you don't get it? How will your relationship with your wife be affected? Will both of you be able to continue the status-quo? Will your wife be likely to pull away and not want what you've been offering and giving her; will she see what's been happening as a manipulation? I also think that you're somewhat putting a lot of pressure on yourself by setting a date or deadline to reveal this to her. Instead, "checking-in" with her on the progress being made in your relationship and how she feels about it seems more appropriate to me. Should the opportunity arise, then it would seem more appropriate to begin to share the needs and wants you have that you are getting met by the changes in how things are going. Then by judging from her reaction, you would be able to tell how far you should take the conversation. As someone else said "baby steps" would seem appropriate. [;)] As another said, at some level she already knows what you wish to tell her. Pehaps your conversation will allow her the opportunity to do that without the need for you to go there totally on your own; allowing her to ask you deeper questions after you've begun to tell her some of the needs and wants you've recognized are now being met. For that reason, letting the conversation follow it's own course might be a better approach. Since I presume you'll be alone for more than a single day, perhaps the conversation can continue in small amounts over the course of several days as you focus on maintaining the intimacy with her throughout the period. Doing it all in one session may be too much for her to absorb and process at one setting. It's only been 8 months, compared to how many years of being together? She may need more time seeing you demonstrate you've changed your previous behavior. I know you feel your needs and desires are strong, but to some degree you're now getting them met by acting proactively to change your behavior and begin serving your wife's needs; in doing so getting some of yours met as well. Look deep within you and ask yourself if you're really doing it for her or to get your own needs met in the relationship? There's nothing wrong with the latter, but your wife will see this as being about *you* and not about primarily wanting to meet *her needs* which is incongruent with much of what you've said you want to tell her. That being said, is there really a need to rush things instead of allowing the dynamic to continue to develop naturally on it's own? The old addage that "patience is a virture" may be something to consider applying more of here, since you risk losing what you've gained. Perhaps if you view this as part of continuing your journey together through life with your wife, the immediate need you feel for full disclosure will lessen, as it sounds like you may first have some amends to make with both your wife and the rest of your family. [&:] Just some thoughts to consider... - pixel

LaMistressa -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 10:15:36 AM)
I just want to agree with undergroundsea and pixelslave on their comments, and particularly sea's sample neutral language to use. They both went a lot further and were more explicit with what I was trying to say. Having had a similar experience with a vanilla husband (and one that didn't end with us together), I know this is really a tough road.

Politesub53 -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 10:51:48 AM)
Terms, good luck with this, i really hope it goes well for you. As others have said, baby steps and keep it simple. One idea may be to watch a film like "Body of Evidence" with Madonna, and see her reaction to it. The important thing is if she says a big "NO" then dont push it, that could ruin what you already have. Regards...PS53

LaMistressa -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 1:17:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 One idea may be to watch a film like "Body of Evidence" with Madonna, and see her reaction to it. Why would you suggest abusing this woman in this way? Madonna acting? Truly punishment! [;)]

slvemike4u -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 2:45:33 PM)
Hell these days Madonna singing ain't no walk in the park either!

ElanSubdued -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 3:35:35 PM)
TermsConditions, Everyone has given such good advice already that I really can't think of anything to add. Ah, but I just thought of something! :-) For me, the one thing that really stands out in your OP is that you've only just got your relationship with your wife functioning again. It seems almost unrealistic to throw BDSM into the mix after only eight months of working on repairing your relationship. I understand how keeping your submissive nature under wraps must feel like an eternity, but you've managed so far and I'm encouraging you to take things at a pace that works for your relationship. Therefore, my advice is to toss aside your July 14th date. Instead of thinking about a "coming out" date, I'd slowly, in baby steps fashion, let your wife know things you are thinking. If you can use non-threatening language (i.e. non-BDSM terminology) and describe your feelings in terms of "this turns me on" or "I like this" as opposed to "I've been holding back X from you all this time", I think this is a more supportive, positive approach. Likewise, if you can introduce an activity by finding out what about it turns your partner on, I think you'll have even more chance of success. Read Sea's excellent post again. Above all, I encourage you to proceed slowly and to wait until you've established a strong emotional, vanilla foundation from which to start. Perhaps now isn't the best time to introduce your wife to your kinky interests. I think I'd work on your relationship for another year before venturing into BDSM territory (even light BDSM territory). This is just my gut feel. Of course, only you know your wife and how she may react. It takes a lot of love and patience to work on your marriage the way you both are. Whatever path you take, I wish you much happiness. Elan.

Politesub53 -> RE: The Conversation (7/7/2008 4:22:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaMistressa quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 One idea may be to watch a film like "Body of Evidence" with Madonna, and see her reaction to it. Why would you suggest abusing this woman in this way? Madonna acting? Truly punishment! [;)] Yes Ma`am, i am a wannabe Dom. [:D]

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