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Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 7:28:57 PM

cellogrrlMK

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I'm curious to know how people feel about euthanasia, not for our pets but for our human loved ones.

I will say that I think it is a shame that we can't do for our human loved ones what we can do for our beloved pets when their lives become such that there is no quality of life and no dignity in simply existing.

Let me qualify by saying that I think this is something we should be able to stipulate while we are competent to do so. I'd rather not go into any more detail than this, but it's just something I felt I had to ask others.

cello

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 7:53:11 PM

JohnWarren

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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cellogrrlMK

I'm curious to know how people feel about euthanasia, not for our pets but for our human loved ones.

I will say that I think it is a shame that we can't do for our human loved ones what we can do for our beloved pets when their lives become such that there is no quality of life and no dignity in simply existing.

Let me qualify by saying that I think this is something we should be able to stipulate while we are competent to do so. I'd rather not go into any more detail than this, but it's just something I felt I had to ask others.

cello

I see it as a basic privacy question. Unfortunately, privacy wasn't among the rights enumerated in the Constitution. I've contributed to the Hemlock Society and have a copy of Final Exit. Libby and I both have living wills and we've discussed this issue at length. We are of different outlooks but have agreed to honour each other's wishes.

Given that, I think everyone should make their wishes known to their loved ones even if it stings a bit. When one is helpless, that is not the time to start the debate.

And, finally, I think rational consent is absolutely necessary before this is even considered. And, again, that comes back to talking with one's loved ones.

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 7:59:28 PM

cellogrrlMK

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JohnWarren, thank you for your reply.

What if one has made their wishes known to their loved ones? Besides "I don't want extraordinary means to keep me alive", for one? Knowing that euthanasia is against the law (except maybe in Oregon I think), how can one stipulate that they wish to not simply exist and to die with dignity?

cello

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 8:18:24 PM

Quivver

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Joined: 11/27/2004
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Euthanasia is something I've pondered since my youth.
Back in the day I was a fierce defender.
Eventually someone pulled me aside and gave me the Christian
stance, instilled some fear of the All Mighty in me and I became
somewhat mute on the subject even if my thoughts never really
changed. Years past and my Mother (rest her soul) made it
clear she wanted no artificial assistance, eventually the day
came with the decision laying in my hands. Of course I followed
her wishes. ... interesting thing is my mother was a devout
Christian, (I've seen myself more as half heathen for longer
then I can remember) but her belief that she'd find heaven
combined with my thoughts on how I'd treat one of my beloved
critters clinched it, at least for me. Although I agree with John
that it's a personal matter I'm afraid that it will never be legalized
due to insurance companies and other big business. I think
the best we can hope for is those that end up responsible
for us will do their best to do as we'd please..........

Q

< Message edited by Quivver -- 11/10/2005 8:20:06 PM >

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 8:28:38 PM

JohnWarren

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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cellogrrlMK

JohnWarren, thank you for your reply.

What if one has made their wishes known to their loved ones? Besides "I don't want extraordinary means to keep me alive", for one? Knowing that euthanasia is against the law (except maybe in Oregon I think), how can one stipulate that they wish to not simply exist and to die with dignity?

cello

While I wouldn't want any to take the risk upon themselves. I have a small tank of nitrogen and a breathing mask. Anoxia has almost killed me a few times including one long long jump from 40,000 feet with a frozen altimeter and an equally frozen stopwatch. It's not all that bad a way to go.

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 8:29:32 PM

cellogrrlMK

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Quivver, thanks for your insight.

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 8:35:38 PM

FLButtSlut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cellogrrlMK

JohnWarren, thank you for your reply.

What if one has made their wishes known to their loved ones? Besides "I don't want extraordinary means to keep me alive", for one? Knowing that euthanasia is against the law (except maybe in Oregon I think), how can one stipulate that they wish to not simply exist and to die with dignity?

cello

"Euthanasia" is illegal in all states. What you are speaking of is "assisted suicide". It is illegal in nearly all states, yet occurs frequently in all as well. It is just not spoken of. The legal ramifications are what keep this from becoming an option.

While it would be quite easy to state while healthy that we wouldn't want to live if this or that occurred, should this or that occur, we may not be quite as willing to throw in the towel. I can say I wouldn't want to live with Alzhiemers, but should I be struck with that, I may, in my lucid moments, not wish my life to end. When I am NOT lucid, I am not competent, and therefore, unable to make a decision. Who then, during that time can make that decision? Because if I have changed my mind, then no one has the right to override my decision. The issues are how the loved ones will want to make those decisions because they want their inheritance, or are unable or unwilling to care for the infirm person. This is NOT necessarily following the wishes of the ill person, but allowing the loved one to ease THEIR pain. It is a tricky situation.

Christopher Reeve, when first injured wished to die rather than live as he was. This is common for many severely injured people. But look at all he achieved AFTER his injury. Had his wife been permitted to euthanize him, it would have been a bigger tragedy than his accident.

Dr. Kevorkian (sp?) would not simply administer lethal doses to those who request it. The person wishing to die must meet very stringent criteria over a longer period of time before he would agree to assist. The ill person is the one who must be able to consent, not the family, that is key.

I agree that there are times when assisted suicide should be a legal option for a person. The problem is that before it becomes a legal option, a list of criteria must be developed for qualifying a person to engage in such activities.

Holland has legalized this activity and has gone so far as to qualify rheumatoid arthritis and depression as terminal illnesses worthy of assisted suicide or euthanasia. Certainly, I can not be the only person who sees fault in qualify those two particular afflictions as terminal illnesses worthy of death.

Questions such as this are easy to ask, but not easy to answer and even more difficult to make realistic in a responsible way.

(in reply to cellogrrlMK)

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 8:50:38 PM

maybemaybenot

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I think FlButtSlut sums it up best. There are just way too many variables for an exact answer.

Quivver:. Being a DNR or declining artificial life support is supported both by the Catholic and Protestant Churches.
The Catholic position and some of the Evangelical Christians get a little hairy.. They have a belief that if one goes on say a feeding tube volutarily and then decides to remove it.. it is suicide etc... but refussal is not looked down upon.

JohnWarren.... as a former Nurse, I just do not want to be the one to intentionally give the lethal dose that will bring about death. However, I have absolutely no isue with someone who choses to do that, or choses to have a loved one/friend do it for them, if they have so agreed. I agree it is a privacy issue. And there should be no judgement on any one who choses to do as they see fit with thier life.

~maybemaybenot~

(in reply to FLButtSlut)

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 9:04:21 PM

Quivver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut

Christopher Reeve, when first injured wished to die rather than live as he was. This is common for many severely injured people. But look at all he achieved AFTER his injury. Had his wife been permitted to euthanize him, it would have been a bigger tragedy than his accident.

Questions such as this are easy to ask, but not easy to answer and even more difficult to make realistic in a responsible way.

I would be interested to know if Christopher Reeve ever said what he would want considering the *what's ifs* before he was injured, not so after the fact.
He was an Equestrian doing what he loved. Anyone who gets to the level he was riding
has been told over and over again it's not If, but when you'll get hurt. Personally IF he had truly wanted no assistance Prior to being injured the things he accomplished after were no longer of his choosing, he was simply being submissive to what was left.

just my .02
Q

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 9:17:16 PM

sub4hire

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Well, I'd like to state the fact I have been legally dead twice in my life so far. Close twice more.
Dying no matter how you die is very bad. I'm sure once you are actually dead you will be at peace. Yet, even if that death last for a mere five second's it is lasting for hour's in your head as your body struggles to survive while it is shutting down.

Bottom line, we are not getting out of this world alive. Just the way we are getting out remains to be seen. Assuming there is a God, do we take his job into our hands? Would he or she approve?
I have viewed suicide most of my life as a ticket straight to hell. I very well could be wrong. I am aware I know nothing in the grand scheme of things.

However, in the same instance do you want to be kept alive when there is absolutely no chance in the world to survive?
Perhap's being able to gather your loved ones to say goodbye and actually saying goodbye?
We get desperate. I would not have ever put Dr. Kevorkian in jail if it were me. His crime was having empathy on other's. The world would be a much better place if we had empathy. To see someone suffering you love. To be able to end their suffering.
When my sister was dying she was literally begging to be put out of pain. They gave her more morphine.
So, we can all answer the way we think we would given the circumstances today. Yet, if it is you in that place and you see your loved one in so much pain with no way to ever recover. What would you do?
Would you be selfish and keep them when they should'nt be here? Or would you do perhap's the first self less act in your life and let them go? I've seen people do both. Personally I'd like to think I was doing a last wish for the person. I hope when my time comes I have someone who loves me enough to allow me to go in as much peace as possible.

So, am I for it? I think so. Though I cannot answer without living through it. I could very well change my mind.

(in reply to cellogrrlMK)

Post #: 10

RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 9:20:38 PM

siamsa24

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Well, my great grandfather died with dignity and required no assistance. He built a cabin in the woods behind his house, told everyone that he was ready to die and went out to the cabin and did just that. This may not be for everyone, but he was alone and it was on his own terms. Some may consider this suicide, but he never harmed himself, he just felt that it was time to die and as far as we can tell just died of natural causes (or "willed himself" to die)

(in reply to cellogrrlMK)

Post #: 11

RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 9:33:42 PM

maybemaybenot

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From a former Hospice Nurse:

Unfortunately the situation your sister found herself in is not uncommon and it is also inexcusable in this day and age. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to die in pain. This is a lack of knowledge by MDs and a fear of causing addiction and/or death with the use of opiods.
MD's have little to no training in the treatment of pain during there many years of schooling. It is shameful.

Having spent 20 years in end of life care, I can honestly say, I have never had a patient die in pain. Having said that.. there is a little known practice in end of life care, called palliative sedation. It is a procedure used in rare circumstances, when the pain or symptoms such as nausea, delirium, etc are intractable. While it can be argued that this is indeed euthanasia... the clear intent is to relieve pain and suffering, not to cause death. Where as the intent of euthanasia is to cause death. When the decision is made by the patient to undergo palliative sedation it can be for a limited amount of time and then slowly brought out or as a final treatment for symptom in which the side effect of the treatment may be death.

I have provided a link for any one interested in knowing more.

sub4hire:.. I am sorry your sister and your family went thru that experience. It is a form of medical malpractice in my opinion and one form that is, sadly very common.

edited to provide link :

http://www.cbhd.org/resources/endoflife/kingsbury-ducharme_2002-01-24.htm

maybemaybenot

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 11/10/2005 9:35:08 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 9:46:28 PM

FLButtSlut

Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut

Christopher Reeve, when first injured wished to die rather than live as he was. This is common for many severely injured people. But look at all he achieved AFTER his injury. Had his wife been permitted to euthanize him, it would have been a bigger tragedy than his accident.

Questions such as this are easy to ask, but not easy to answer and even more difficult to make realistic in a responsible way.

I would be interested to know if Christopher Reeve ever said what he would want considering the *what's ifs* before he was injured, not so after the fact.
He was an Equestrian doing what he loved. Anyone who gets to the level he was riding
has been told over and over again it's not If, but when you'll get hurt. Personally IF he had truly wanted no assistance Prior to being injured the things he accomplished after were no longer of his choosing, he was simply being submissive to what was left.

just my .02
Q

Quivver,

Very good point, I don't know if anything was ever written about his wishes prior to the accident. I do know that after, like most people in his situation, he went through a period of wanting to die.

I disagree with the idea that after it was him "being submissive to what was left". It belittles every person who has made the best of a bad situation and diminishes the accomplishments they make.

In the face of tragedy, many find themselves with major clinical depression and suicidal thoughts. But when they overcome that depression and move on, to say they are "submissive to their situation" and the things they accomplish are not of their choosing is absolute hogwash and demeaning to the success they may achieve afterwards.

To be honest, Quivver, those are comments I am suprised to see coming from you.

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 9:50:05 PM

cellogrrlMK

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Thank you to everyone for their responses. There's not really a whole lot I can say, except to thank you again for taking the time to share your feelings about this subject.

cello

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 9:56:37 PM

Quivver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut

to be honest, Quivver, those are comments I am suprised to see coming from you.

As a fellow rider, and one that is active in the area of his fall, there is a mind set that many share of not wishing to exist in place of living actively, or possibly I should say selfishly as we had. Although the possibility of accomplishing *something* even after a tragedy such as his, many of us would see this as a slow and painful death. It's only from that point of view that I made the statement.
Q

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 10:27:46 PM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut
Christopher Reeve, when first injured wished to die rather than live as he was. This is common for many severely injured people. But look at all he achieved AFTER his injury. Had his wife been permitted to euthanize him, it would have been a bigger tragedy than his accident.

I do know that after, like most people in his situation, he went through a period of wanting to die.

In the face of tragedy, many find themselves with major clinical depression and suicidal thoughts. But when they overcome that depression and move on, to say they are "submissive to their situation" and the things they accomplish are not of their choosing is absolute hogwash and demeaning to the success they may achieve afterwards.

So, he had a couple years filled with bedsores and constant doctors and depression and nightmares and people running around and trying to buck his ass up and nearly dying a few times and then he just tipped over one day. Alone, from lack of breath which is what we all do in the end.

Don't quite see where the timing would make a difference, it is unclear what was accomplished of lasting value in the earth. It seems important to some of us to have choices, even if they are all bad, an illusion of control.

Seems like it often ends up a distinction without a difference.

Neither here nor there, I started to write more but..enough.

Ron

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 10:41:29 PM

DesertRat

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I think the decision needs to lie with the individual. As long as he or she is informed and rational, the wish to die with dignity should be respected. I will put in place a living will, and all of my close friends know how I feel. If I ever find myself suffering from a terminal condition (I am quite healthy now, and hope that continues to be the case), I will also have a "do not resuscitate" order drawn up and have it handy for those likely to need it.

Bob

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 11:47:38 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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I am "pro" (not euthanasia, but pro withdrawing support) in that I believe in not prolonging suffering when scientific evidence contradicts possibility for restoring health/restoring person to a level somewhat close to where he was functioning before events... Mostly in restoration, I mean mental/psych function, not so much physical.
I wouldn't consider withdrawing life support just because someone lost his ability to use an arm or both legs, but I would never want to be kept or to keep someone with serious brain damage alive by artificial means.

This is something my family knows, and I know about them, so while it would be a horrible position to find oneself suddenly in, it's not one which would leave any of my siblings with a dilemma as to what to do. M

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/10/2005 11:48:03 PM

MadameDahlia

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I don't much care for the idea of death. I'd like to pick an age... and live it forever and ever... with no pain, suffering or ailments of any kind. But we're not living in a science fiction - not yet at any rate.

If someone is hurting (either physically or emotionally) and there is nothing that would take that hurt away I think that the quality of life has diminished enough to warrant an assisted suicide - or whatever else you wish to call it.

My nearest and dearest friend, for almost as long as I've been alive, was my diary, my shoulder to sob on, my support and in some cases my sanity. She was there for me always. She knew when something was bothering me and I never had to say a word. She could feel it all in a look... or perhaps pick up on a vibe. Even when no one else knew there was something going on... she knew. She cared. She never complained or left when I needed someone to hold... someone to talk to... someone to cuddle with.

And then one day when she was about nineteen she had a seizure. She dropped to the floor and wouldn't stop rolling. She crashed into a wall and finally went limp. A few minutes later she opened her eyes, slowly got up and unsteadily walked into the kitchen. My heart began to break.

The vet gave us medication. But the medication essentially robbed her of her spirit... of what made her Matilda. She didn't move when she was drugged up. She would lay in one spot for hours and hours. Her fur became matted. Her eyes would never focus. She was so listless. And so hard to watch without wanting to pull her close and sob into her fur.

She had been such a good friend. She was an elegant, classy Lady with spirit... and a mean streak a mile wide when someone stepped out of line. And now she was in pain and unhappy or so doped up that she didn't even care to move.

As much as the family wanted more time... even just a few more days... we knew it wasn't right. It wasn't fair. She was always so dignified. Never missed a step. And she didn't deserve this sort of life... this shell of an existence.

We let her move on and leave our lives, but she left her mark before she moved on to better things - better places.

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/11/2005 12:45:03 AM

1RottenJohnny

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Coming from the home state of Dr. Kevorkian, I have to say I support assisted suicide. Although I'm not sure I would ever choose it for myself.

Before my father died he had talked to my mother about it. He told her that he didn't want his last thoughts to be about something he had done to himself. For some reason I feel like I need to honor that belief. My father was probably the first person I can say was truly my hero.

I know this for sure, after watching him die from cancer I think I'm going to pray for a coronary attack that blows my aorta out onto the sidewalk.

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Post #: 20

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