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RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 11:08:22 AM   
somethndif


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

Well I know that HIV can take in some people up to a year to show signs of...

So were the men kept from sexual encounters for over a year before the study was preformed. Were all people involved in the study regulated. How do you know that the men with uncut cocks.... didnt already have the virus.. And keep the ones who were cut wernt kept from having sexual activity.

Do not tell me "people of science wouldnt do that" people manipulate findings all the time to suit what it is they believe and want to prove.

I personally do not care if my cock is cut uncut long short fat skinny.... its color its size its shape. The only thing I care about when it comes to cock is when was its last sexual encounter, and when was it last tested.

Other then that All cocks get equal love when it comes to me.


Again, from the CDC fact sheet (http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm) :

"International Clinical Trials
 
Three randomized controlled clinical trials were conducted in Africa to determine whether circumcision of adult males will reduce their risk for HIV infection. The study conducted in South Africa was stopped in 2005, and those in Kenya and Uganda  were stopped in 2006 after interim analyses found a statistically significant reduction in male participants’ risk for HIV infection from medical circumcision.

In these studies, men who had been randomly assigned to the circumcision group had a 60% (South Africa), 53% (Kenya), and 51% (Uganda) lower incidence of HIV infection compared with men assigned to the wait-list group to be circumcised at the end of the study. In all three studies, a few men who had been assigned to be circumcised did not undergo the procedure, and vice versa. When the data were reanalyzed to account for these occurrences, men who had been circumcised had a 76% (South Africa), 60% (Kenya), and 55% (Uganda) reduction in risk for HIV infection compared with those who were not circumcised."

Look, don't believe the results of these studies, if that's what you want to do.  The CDC accepts the results as valid.  And you have no basis for suggesting that these studies were manipulated.

Dan

(in reply to hopelessfool)
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RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 11:42:29 AM   
hopelessfool


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yes I do have every reason to believe they were manipulated. Why because they "with out a doubt" prove one side of the story when there is no such thing as "this is 100% proof" show me in the study where circumcision actually caused it ....

Personally I think cutting off skin and leaving an open wound and having sex ADDS to the risk of getting a virus that is passed through bodily fluids or wound to wound contact.

But then Ive watched someone die from the disease and took the  how not to get it class when he was living with us... so maybe my opinion is biased on the medical facts that were presented to my family...

Either way, The best way to not get an std has nothing to do with how the penis looks... and everything to do with knowing what the penis has touched...


_____________________________

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(in reply to somethndif)
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RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 12:14:18 PM   
cjan


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somethndif, You're arrogance matches you ignorance. You attack other posters for having an opinion different from your own. Is that where YOUR screen name is derived from ? You cherry pick data and present them to support your pov. A weary and transparent tactic.

I agree with the dark. People need to be concerned with safe sex practices rather than the nonsense of cut or uncut cocks. What kind of moron believes that circumcision will , in any way, protect them from STDs, or relieves them of the responsibility to be prudent in their sexual practices ?


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(in reply to hopelessfool)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 12:15:05 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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quote:

ORIGINAL: somethndif

quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

Well I know that HIV can take in some people up to a year to show signs of...

So were the men kept from sexual encounters for over a year before the study was preformed. Were all people involved in the study regulated. How do you know that the men with uncut cocks.... didnt already have the virus.. And keep the ones who were cut wernt kept from having sexual activity.

Do not tell me "people of science wouldnt do that" people manipulate findings all the time to suit what it is they believe and want to prove.

I personally do not care if my cock is cut uncut long short fat skinny.... its color its size its shape. The only thing I care about when it comes to cock is when was its last sexual encounter, and when was it last tested.

Other then that All cocks get equal love when it comes to me.


Again, from the CDC fact sheet (http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm) :

"International Clinical Trials
 
Three randomized controlled clinical trials were conducted in Africa to determine whether circumcision of adult males will reduce their risk for HIV infection. The study conducted in South Africa was stopped in 2005, and those in Kenya and Uganda  were stopped in 2006 after interim analyses found a statistically significant reduction in male participants’ risk for HIV infection from medical circumcision.

In these studies, men who had been randomly assigned to the circumcision group had a 60% (South Africa), 53% (Kenya), and 51% (Uganda) lower incidence of HIV infection compared with men assigned to the wait-list group to be circumcised at the end of the study. In all three studies, a few men who had been assigned to be circumcised did not undergo the procedure, and vice versa. When the data were reanalyzed to account for these occurrences, men who had been circumcised had a 76% (South Africa), 60% (Kenya), and 55% (Uganda) reduction in risk for HIV infection compared with those who were not circumcised."

Look, don't believe the results of these studies, if that's what you want to do.  The CDC accepts the results as valid.  And you have no basis for suggesting that these studies were manipulated.

Dan



Let's show a little intelligence here. Let's accept that circumcision reduces a man's risk of HIV, that's like saying a circumcised man playing Russian roulette with one bullet in the gun has more chance of survival than an uncircumcized man playing Russian roulette with two bullets in a gun. The real problem is not being uncircumcized or not but playing Russian roulette in the first place.

The repeated bringing up of this study is a red herring and a farce and little to do with a young male being mutilated and abused by being circumcized before he is old enough to give his informed consent.

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(in reply to somethndif)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 12:41:37 PM   
somethndif


Posts: 136
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

somethndif, You're arrogance matches you ignorance. You attack other posters for having an opinion different from your own. Is that where YOUR screen name is derived from ? You cherry pick data and present them to support your pov. A weary and transparent tactic.

I agree with the dark. People need to be concerned with safe sex practices rather than the nonsense of cut or uncut cocks. What kind of moron believes that circumcision will , in any way, protect them from STDs, or relieves them of the responsibility to be prudent in their sexual practices ?


I am not attacking people for having opinions different from mine.  What I don't like is people who have opinions without regard to the facts.

I never said that people should not be concerned with safe sex practices.  Of course I think they should.  But that does not change the FACT that circumcised men have a significantly smaller risk of contracting AIDS and other STD's than men who are not circumcised.

I really don't care whether you are circumcised or not, or whether you have your children circumcised.  But make your decisions based on the current state of scientific knowledge, not ignorance.

And I am not cherry-picking data.  Go read the CDC's fact sheet.  None of you who are criticizing me have pointed to any study favoring non-circumcised men.

Dan

(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 12:47:10 PM   
somethndif


Posts: 136
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Let's show a little intelligence here. Let's accept that circumcision reduces a man's risk of HIV, that's like saying a circumcised man playing Russian roulette with one bullet in the gun has more chance of survival than an uncircumcized man playing Russian roulette with two bullets in a gun. The real problem is not being uncircumcized or not but playing Russian roulette in the first place.

The repeated bringing up of this study is a red herring and a farce and little to do with a young male being mutilated and abused by being circumcized before he is old enough to give his informed consent.


People can easily choose not to play Russian roulette.  People are not going to choose not to have sex.   If a simple procedure can reduce the risk of AIDS and other STD's, it makes sense to me to utilize it.   

It is not a red herring.  And circumcision is not mutilation and abuse.  That may be your opinion, but it is not shared by me, or by most people.

If you don't like circumcision, don't do it.  But your opinion will not change the facts.

Dan

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 1:20:23 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: somethndif

It is not a red herring.  And circumcision is not mutilation and abuse.  That may be your opinion, but it is not shared by me, or by most people.

If you don't like circumcision, don't do it.  But your opinion will not change the facts.

Dan


Yes.  Lets look at the 'facts'.
Avert - (I am using this as an example because it is a recognised source and well known) clearly state that circumcision data does not affect child infection rates and that this should not be taken into consideration.  So great if you are an adult, go have it done if you really feel this is a pro active procedure for you.  But for children, it is null and void - particularly as stated by AVERT - the under 12.
 
That there is the facts.  Go look them up.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 1:34:24 PM   
christine1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddystouch

Here in the UK circumcision is pretty rare. I read somewhere that it's about 12%, and to be honest I'm surprised it's that high. As far as I know, the only significant number of men/boys who get circumcised are Jews and Muslims.

But in the US an 'uncut penis' seems to be a rarity. Wikipedia tells me that circumcision rates are 75%. Presuambly the US doesn't have a population made up of 75% Jews and Muslims, so why is there so much circumcision there?



why do you care?  i can see points on both sides of the table as to do it or not do it but i don't give a flying fuck why people chose to do it or not.  maybe i'm just crazy, but some things that other people believe just aren't worth getting worked up over.

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RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 1:34:38 PM   
hopelessfool


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You want Facts Dan?

Simple Fact ( I say its a fact because Im well a cock lover...)

Cock in general should be loved no matter what if its circumsized or not...

The Point of Daddys touch orginal... Was not wither it SHOULD be done or SHOULD NOT be done. But if girls like it cut or uncut.. and when he moved to the states if people would find it Weird or not......

To Daddystouch... I do not find and uncut cock displeasing... Just as i do not find a cut cock displeasing....

I dont find any cock displeasing... except if its oozing anything but cum....


_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 1:40:11 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: somethndif
your opinion will not change the facts.

It is a fact that the Jewish population, being guilty of the sacrilege of mutilating the creation of the Creator, i.e. mutilating the penises of their males, have invoked his wrath and are accursed with Tay Sachs and other horrible and lethal congenital diseases, and also Saint Paul observed that those who are circumcized of flesh instead of spirit are evil workers.
Verily: any population that circumcizes its males is doomed. Repent before it is too late.

(in reply to somethndif)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 1:47:35 PM   
christine1


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_____________________________

i am woman! er, godzilla! hear me roar!

http://wavcentral.com/cgi-bin/log/log.cgi?id=2856&sound=/sounds/movies/godzilla/roar.mp3


He's the "boom" overwhelming...

He is my Master, my lover, my best friend my everything.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 2:26:18 PM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: somethndif

People can easily choose not to play Russian roulette.  People are not going to choose not to have sex.   If a simple procedure can reduce the risk of AIDS and other STD's, it makes sense to me to utilize it.   


There is no evidence that circumcision reduces STDs, the study you mentioned was HIV specific. You are being economical with the truth. However, according to British Medical Association and other European medical bodies, circumcision does increase infections and cause erectile and urinary problems not associated with none circumcized males.

quote:

ORIGINAL: somethndif
It is not a red herring.  And circumcision is not mutilation and abuse.  That may be your opinion, but it is not shared by me, or by most people.

If you don't like circumcision, don't do it.  But your opinion will not change the facts.

Dan


I suppose female circumcision in you book is not mutilation or abuse either? 


You won't find many human rights experts that would argue your way. As I mentioned before, while none of the human rights charters mention circumcision specifically, they do mention mutilation and subjecting children to abuse.

http://www.circumstitions.com/Rights.html

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/9/2008 2:33:55 PM >


_____________________________

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RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 2:37:31 PM   
Strongmindbody


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Verily: any population that circumcizes its males is doomed. Repent before it is too late.


I like your posts here, Rule. I find that your comments beautifully capture my bewilderment at this whole discussion.



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RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 2:51:07 PM   
Rule


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Thank you, Strong. It ain't easy being a supergenius.
 
 

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RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 3:12:12 PM   
beargonewild


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~FR~

Here we bloody go again on a topic which has been bitched about to death and beyond.  (ok now I've got my sarcasm out of the way)

To the OP, it's possible the reason is based upon religious views, family tradition, advisement from the medical community , personal preference or many other reasons a parent holds to circumcise their male offspring.Outside of having it done due to medical reasons as an adult, we male adults aren't able to explain why were were circumcised as infants.

I also would like to say that the medical community has found that being circumcised does reduce the infection rate of HIV yet not in any huge significant way. Yet we all have to agree that any lowering of the infection rate is small positive step. It must be stressed that being circumcised is not the end all be all to preventing infection: it is just one of many preventative measures to avoid infecting and being infected. As a few intelligent posters mentioned, EDUCATION must be available to every single person on this planet. So to the few who whine about being circumcised without your consent when you were a child, suck it up princess as it's over and done with.


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RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 3:13:22 PM   
christine1


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bear, you are awesome. 

_____________________________

i am woman! er, godzilla! hear me roar!

http://wavcentral.com/cgi-bin/log/log.cgi?id=2856&sound=/sounds/movies/godzilla/roar.mp3


He's the "boom" overwhelming...

He is my Master, my lover, my best friend my everything.

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 3:44:58 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild
I also would like to say that the medical community has found that being circumcised does reduce the infection rate of HIV yet not in any huge significant way. Yet we all have to agree that any lowering of the infection rate is small positive step.

Well, I do not agree. So there.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild
It must be stressed that being circumcised is not the end all be all to preventing infection: it is just one of many preventative measures to avoid infecting and being infected.

Quite. And the next preventative measures to avoid infecting and being infected are to murder homosexuals and to stone to death girls that choose to have intercourse with a man to whom they are not married, as it is obvious that such persons transmit such venereal diseases. Still don't get it why saint Paul called those who had their penis mutilated "evil workers"?
 
The evolutionary algorithms are unforgiving: when a population mutilates the penises of their males such a population becomes minions of Satan and becomes accursed.
 
Sexually transmitted diseases benefit gene pools. If one does not want any, then one had better mind who they have intercourse with.

< Message edited by Rule -- 7/9/2008 4:12:09 PM >

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RE: Circumcision - 7/9/2008 4:02:56 PM   
pahunkboy


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the trend is toward LESS cuts... not more.

I think that is a mistake- but that just my opinion.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Circumcision - 7/10/2008 9:36:38 AM   
somethndif


Posts: 136
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

There is no evidence that circumcision reduces STDs, the study you mentioned was HIV specific. You are being economical with the truth. However, according to British Medical Association and other European medical bodies, circumcision does increase infections and cause erectile and urinary problems not associated with none circumcized males.


Actually there were three studies in Africa and in each of them circumcised men had statistically significant reduced rates of HIV infection.

And, yes, there is evidence that circumcision reduces the risk of other STD's, as well as HIV/AIDS.  Again from the CDC fact sheet:

"Male Circumcision and Other Health Conditions

Lack of male circumcision has also been associated with sexually transmitted genital ulcer disease and chlamydia, infant urinary tract infections, penile cancer, and cervical cancer in female partners of uncircumcised men [1]. The latter two conditions are related to human papillomavirus (HPV) infection. Transmission of this virus is also associated with lack of male circumcision. A recent meta-analysis included 26 studies that assessed the association between male circumcision and risk for genital ulcer disease. The analysis concluded that there was a significantly lower risk for syphilis and chancroid among circumcised men, whereas the reduced risk of herpes simplex virus type 2 infection had a borderline statistical significance [4]."

As for complications from circumcision, the CDC fact sheet states:

"Risks Associated with Male Circumcision

Reported complication rates depend on the type of study (e.g., chart review vs. prospective study), setting (medical vs. nonmedical facility), person operating (traditional vs. medical practitioner), patient age (infant vs. adult), and surgical technique or instrument used. In large studies of infant circumcision in the United States, reported inpatient complication rates range from 0.2% to 2.0% [1, 14, 15]. The most common complications in the United States are minor bleeding and local infection. In the recently completed African trials of adult circumcision, the rates of adverse events possibly, probably, or definitely attributable to circumcision ranged from 2% to 8%. The most commonly reported complications were pain or mild bleeding. There were no reported deaths or long-term sequelae documented [9, 10, 11, 16]. A recent case-control study of two outbreaks of methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) in otherwise healthy male infants at one hospital identified circumcision as a potential risk factor. However, in no case did MRSA infections involve the circumcision site, anesthesia injection site, or the penis, and MRSA was not found on any of the circumcision equipment or anesthesia vials tested [17]."

So, circumcision has few adverse effects and no "long-term sequelae."

If you have a link or citation to something from the BMA or some other medical association showing problems with circumcision, I would like to see it.  Until then, I'll trust the CDC's review of the available medical literature. 

Dan

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Circumcision - 7/10/2008 10:10:10 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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If circumcision does assist with infection rates, why do the most reliable AIDs research data not indicate dramatic falls of HIV infection rates in the US - seeing as the majority of males are already circumcised in the states?  Other than a sharp dip in the early 90's when AIDS was at the top of the political agenda and adverts and information was at it's peak, from 2000, is has been on a slight increase and even plateaued?  Why isn't it dropping significantly?
 
hhmm...
 
the.dark.

_____________________________


RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to somethndif)
Profile   Post #: 80
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