RE: Circumcision (Full Version)

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Rule -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 10:19:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: somethndif
Lack of male circumcision has also been associated with ... infant urinary tract infections

Ordinary infants do not get urinary tract infections. I have also never heard af any young animals getting urinary tract infections. Conclusion: infants get urinary tract infection because of something that they do or what someone else - presumably their well-meaning parents - do to them; not because their penises are not mutilated.
 
I read that in uncircumcized boys up to five years old it is only slightly higher than in circumcized boys.
What is more important are some of the causes of urinary tracts infections, methinks and I quote:
 
"
  • poor toilet and hygiene habits
  • the use of bubble baths or soaps that irritate the urethra "

    So apparently infants up to five years old that get urinary tract infections use too much soap.

     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: somethndif
    Until then, I'll trust the CDC's review of the available medical literature. 

    How about trusting one-eyed me instead?
     
    My gene pool does not want men with mutilated penises in it. My gene pool is not obsessive compulsively afraid of venereal diseases. Bring them on! My gene pool produces superior individuals because of those diseases; they are hero's that know how to die well. My gene pool does not want the congenitally inherited horrible diseases that the practice of mutilating penises cause. Nor the evil that saint Paul correlated with populations that have mutilated penises. Populations with males that have mutilated penises are obsessive compulsive cowards.




  • NeedingMore220 -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 10:22:31 AM)

    The original question is:  [. Presuambly the US doesn't have a population made up of 75% Jews and Muslims, so why is there so much circumcision there?]


    All I know is when I had my son, who is now 15, it was just a routine thing they did in the hospital.  I didn't question it because I was too stupid to.  And it hurt me when they brought him back into me, crying.  He quieted quickly, but I always wondered whether that was because he had cried himself so silly while they were doing the procedure.  Urgh... this many years later and it still bothers me.  I was very glad the next two children were girls so I wouldn't have to deal with the question of 'do I or don't I' to conform with societal pressures and the wishes of the father (which were to circumcize). 

    I don't know about the health benefits of circumcision - they seem limited, at best.  I think it's done mainly on a conformity basis, which should be questioned. 




    BKSir -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 10:39:35 AM)

    Welllll, not going to be having babies, so that's not a worry for me, the whole genetic diseases thing, which I'm not quite sure I buy anyway.  Personally though, I think uncut ones just look and feel kinda... funny.  So, yeah, neatly trimmed please.  Not that I would turn anyone away solely based on such a thing, mind you.  




    Rule -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 11:02:18 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: BKSir
    not going to be having babies, so that's not a worry for me, the whole genetic diseases thing

    Some evolutionary processes are more subtle than that. Any male - whether or not he ever has any progeny - that has a mutilated penis contributes to the accumulation of inherited defects in the gene pool. So you and presumably your parents are guilty in shared responsiblity of causing the deaths and suffering of any child that is born with such defects.




    BKSir -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 11:10:35 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Rule

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: BKSir
    not going to be having babies, so that's not a worry for me, the whole genetic diseases thing

    Some evolutionary processes are more subtle than that. Any male - whether or not he ever has any progeny - that has a mutilated penis contributes to the accumulation of inherited defects in the gene pool. So you and presumably your parents are guilty in shared responsiblity of causing the deaths and suffering of any child that is born with such defects.


    Huh? O.o  So... somehow...  I, being circumsized, am the cause of a birth defect about 3000 miles away?  Uhhhh.... Wuh?  It's way too early in my day for me to try and wrap my brain around that one, I'm going to work where the insanity at least makes sense.




    Rule -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 11:29:48 AM)

    Quote Shakespeare:
     
    "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
    Than are dreamt of in your philosophy".

     
    Hamlet Act 1, scene 5, 159–167





    BKSir -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 11:43:06 AM)

    *snicker*
    I remember that line well, having played Horatio thrice.  I always liked that role, as I was the only one who lived in the end.  A fun, yet disturbing play though, nonetheless.

    I just find it rather interesting, and a bit validating, that my junk holds so much sway over the future of humanity.  Kind of scary too, as I tend to be a bit on the insane side.  Less than some, granted, but that's neither here nor there.

    EDIT:  My god, I need to get a better picture of myself, that one is hideous.  Thank you for letting me post a few times so I could actually see it staring back at me in an objective manner.




    slaveboyforyou -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 11:51:50 AM)

    You know I really don't have an opinion on circumcision.  I didn't really have a choice in the matter, and I just don't obsess about it.  Maybe I am missing out on some things without my foreskin, but there isn't anything I can do about it.  I'm certainly not going to obsess about it.  I did ask my mother once why I was circumcised.  She didn't have an answer really; it was just something that is done.  I've never actually taken a close up view of another man's cock for comparison, and I really don't care.  I am happy with mine, and it works just fine. 




    Caius -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 12:50:10 PM)

    Most of the medical issues with regard to circumcision have already been ably treated by somethndif here -- and I'm sure they've been addressed in still more detail in the previous threads on this subject -- so I won't belabor those points except to point out that he's the only person I've noted here quoting established medical institutions.  Mind you, I'm not saying that such establishments are universal in their endorsement of the practice, as they certainly aren't, but the body of evidence is pretty compelling (and growing) with regard to the reduced risk factor for a selection of STD's and cancers.  Two points, however, I feel have not been stressed here, though likely they have in previous incarnations of this thread...

    First, I always find the application of the term "mutilation" to this issue a little peculiar as the word -- as I typically see it used in other contexts in any account -- has semantic implication of trauma that results in significant impairment of practical function or, at the very least, considerable disfigurement, and I don't see how the procedure can be seriously regarded as meeting either of those criteria.   I have to wonder if persons so vehemently opposed to the practice so as to use such polarizing terminology have stopped to wonder if maybe they aren't projecting their own body integrity and sexual identity issues on to the infant; few people would make the case for long-term psychological trauma if a comparable amount of superficial tissue was lost from anywhere else on the child's body, with the possible exception of the face, and such incidences -- which do happen, even in the neonatal context -- are unlikely to occur with the benefit of anesthesia.  How people can imagine that a minuscule amount of skin off an organ that the child is barely aware of at this point could somehow leave a more lasting impression than having his head squeezed by the vice-like pressure of the birth canal capable of literally shapping his head into a cone is beyond me.  For that matter, the infant has just been removed from the comparably cozy confines of the womb has more than enough in the way of introduction to the pain and discomfort of the wider world to keep his attention.   He is vulnerable to extreme cold and heat for probably the first time, his non-somatosensory senses are bombarded with frightening and often painful new stimuli,  serious infections of many varieties are imminent, he has to sit in his own uncomfortable filth for portions of the day,  cramps and significantly sized pockets of gas cause him considerable intestinal pain, and the probably intense agony of teething is about three months off....I could go on for some time.  In all of this, can the child really be expected to be negatively influenced by perhaps a half-gram's worth of missing skin from a region of his body that is going to be routinely covered in rash for the next couple of years?   I have considerable doubts. All of the research that I have seen in the past on this issue tends to center around the concept of estrangement of the baby from the mother as a result of the pain, which I find incredibly dubious given the fact that the mother is not the one the child is most likely to associate with the act and, even if she were, parents are routinely present for medical procedures which cause some pain or discomfort to the child.  The truth is, because we cannot, obviously, get first-hand reports about the experience from infants, any evidence to support such a claim is, without exception, based on the most abstract of evidence.  We might get some empirical clarity from a neurological study but, to the best of my knowledge, no such research has yet been attempted, nor do I expect any developmental scientist to make it a priority any time soon.

    The other point I want to address is the asinine suggestion that has been made repetitively by one poster that circumcision somehow contributes to an increased incidence of mutated alleles -- normally I wouldn't waste the time addressing this issue but it seems a few people have at least considered that there's some truth to this claim, which is a bit disturbing.   Rule, seeing as I have some significant background in evolutionary theory as regards human physiological adaptation, I wonder if you might share with us some detail on the mechanisms you've alluded to that supposedly cause these massive genetic variations.   So far I just see a lot of nonsensical ranting steeped in deep racism.  And by the way, we all share ONE gene pool...much as certain individuals might occasionally make some of us wish otherwise...




    RCdc -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 1:00:17 PM)

    You don't know Rule too well hey?[:D]
     
    the.dark.




    RealityLicks -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 1:01:36 PM)

    Circumcision? Still?  You guys are stretching this out a bit aren't you?

    [:D]




    RCdc -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 1:04:12 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

    Circumcision? Still?  You guys are stretching this out a bit aren't you?

    [:D]


    Is that pun intended?[;)]
     
    the.dark.




    RealityLicks -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 1:05:37 PM)

    Sadly, yes.

    [8D]




    Caius -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 1:11:51 PM)

    Heh, well,  I do in the sense that I've unfortunately met the acquaintance of many hateful bigots attempting to use genetic pseudo-science to justify their extreme bias.   I was conflicted on whether or not to respond to him at all, as everyone seemed to be doing a fine job of ignoring him, but the fact that a person or two was considering that their might be some validity to his claims compelled my to respond to them.  This is a medical issue, after-all, and people should be given as accurate a view of the medical implications as possible, regardless of whether such information is currently directly relevant to them.




    RCdc -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 1:30:19 PM)

    Greetings Caius
     
    On a serious note, whilst I do not follow Rules belief, there is a validity in some of his reasoning, or at least enough to question why certain occurances happen.  Does not all good scientific exploration begin with why?
     
    I would be interested, if you, with your experience of evolutionary theory, be able to respond to my question as to why - if circumcision is a positive move for HIV - why it isn't dropping in the states but remaining stagnant, with small rises(no one has attempted to inform me yet, particularly the person who seemed to promote it the most).  Unfortunately the most recent results will not be available until this november, so I am based on 2007 and before.
     
    And for general information, I am not against circumcision so this isn't a 'I believe this so it must be the right way' thing.  I do maintain that I don't believe in subjecting infants to it(unless for specific medical difficulties) - but then I also do not believe in subjecting an infant to being christened either.  It is more of a choice issue for me.
     
    the.dark.




    meatcleaver -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 1:48:24 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: somethndif

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

    There is no evidence that circumcision reduces STDs, the study you mentioned was HIV specific. You are being economical with the truth. However, according to British Medical Association and other European medical bodies, circumcision does increase infections and cause erectile and urinary problems not associated with none circumcized males.


    Actually there were three studies in Africa and in each of them circumcised men had statistically significant reduced rates of HIV infection.

    And, yes, there is evidence that circumcision reduces the risk of other STD's, as well as HIV/AIDS.  Again from the CDC fact sheet:

    "Male Circumcision and Other Health Conditions

    Lack of male circumcision has also been associated with sexually transmitted genital ulcer disease and chlamydia, infant urinary tract infections, penile cancer, and cervical cancer in female partners of uncircumcised men [1]. The latter two conditions are related to human papillomavirus (HPV) infection. Transmission of this virus is also associated with lack of male circumcision. A recent meta-analysis included 26 studies that assessed the association between male circumcision and risk for genital ulcer disease. The analysis concluded that there was a significantly lower risk for syphilis and chancroid among circumcised men, whereas the reduced risk of herpes simplex virus type 2 infection had a borderline statistical significance [4]."

    As for complications from circumcision, the CDC fact sheet states:

    "Risks Associated with Male Circumcision

    Reported complication rates depend on the type of study (e.g., chart review vs. prospective study), setting (medical vs. nonmedical facility), person operating (traditional vs. medical practitioner), patient age (infant vs. adult), and surgical technique or instrument used. In large studies of infant circumcision in the United States, reported inpatient complication rates range from 0.2% to 2.0% [1, 14, 15]. The most common complications in the United States are minor bleeding and local infection. In the recently completed African trials of adult circumcision, the rates of adverse events possibly, probably, or definitely attributable to circumcision ranged from 2% to 8%. The most commonly reported complications were pain or mild bleeding. There were no reported deaths or long-term sequelae documented [9, 10, 11, 16]. A recent case-control study of two outbreaks of methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) in otherwise healthy male infants at one hospital identified circumcision as a potential risk factor. However, in no case did MRSA infections involve the circumcision site, anesthesia injection site, or the penis, and MRSA was not found on any of the circumcision equipment or anesthesia vials tested [17]."

    So, circumcision has few adverse effects and no "long-term sequelae."

    If you have a link or citation to something from the BMA or some other medical association showing problems with circumcision, I would like to see it.  Until then, I'll trust the CDC's review of the available medical literature. 

    Dan


    The fact that America is THE ONLY country in the world that accepts there are benefits from circumcision should alarm you, considering there are about 250 countries in the world. Even countries where ritual circumcision takes place don't defend it by suggesting there are any benefits from it.

    Improved understanding of the normal anatomy of the infant foreskin means there is now rarely a therapeutic indication for infant circumcision,1 and the procedure is not supported by international medical opinion.2 Ritual (non-therapeutic) male circumcision, however, continues unchecked throughout the world, long after female circumcision, facial scarification, and other ritual forms of infant abuse have been made illegal. The law and principles pertaining to child protection should apply equally to both sexes, so why do society and the medical profession collude with this unnecessary mutilating practice?
     
    http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/335/7631/1180
     
    American pediatricians are turning away from the practice of routine circumcision, concluding that doctors have no good medical reason to perform the procedure.
    The United States is the only country in the world that routinely removes the foreskins of infant boys. Critics of circumcision got additional ammunition Monday from the American Academy of Pediatrics, a leading medical organization.
    The academy concluded the benefits "are not compelling enough" for circumcision to be routinely administered. And if doctors do go ahead with the practice, the pediatricians' group recommended the use of pain relief for the child afterward -- the first time it has made that recommendation.
     
    http://www.canadiancrc.com/Newspaper_Articles/CNN_Pediatricians_turn_away_circumcision_01MAR99.aspx

    Critics believe circumcision is unethical and unnecessary. They argue that the removal of the foreskin increases the risk of infection and, in some cases, death. They also argue that circumcision is linked to conformity and the 'locker room syndrome' where uncircumcised men risk being ridiculed by their peers.
    But supporters claim circumcision has important health benefits and reject arguments that the surgical removal of the foreskin is nothing more than a tribal mark, badge of honour or sign of belonging.
     
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/malecircumcision/social_2.shtml

    Hell, I could post a thousand links, it makes no difference, you will defend it through a sense of guilt for you parents but ignorance is no excuse to future generations that know the evidence is an asinine defence for ritual mutilation that is to do with archiac religious practices rather than scientific evaluation. If it was never an archiac religious practice, this debate would not be happening because no male would be circumcized.




    Rule -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 2:18:10 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Caius
    few people would make the case for long-term psychological trauma if a comparable amount of superficial tissue was lost from anywhere else on the child's body, with the possible exception of the face

    Trauma = wound, as in mutilation
    Who is talking about psychological trauma? (Yes, there will be psychological trauma as well. "Oh, they can't talk anyway, so they cannot possibly be conscious of the hurt." Wrong. Someone of few years once showed a momentous occurrence in her life: the nearly invisible scab of the tiniest scratch, the first she ever endured. Mutilation of the penis trauma is about a million times worse, considering the size of the circumcision wound relative to that of her scratch.)
     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Caius
    How people can imagine that a minuscule amount of skin off an organ that the child is barely aware of at this point could somehow leave a more lasting impression than having his head squeezed by a vice-like pressure of the birth canal capable of literally shapping his head into a cone by is beyond me.

    I am sorry for you.
     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Caius
    can the child really be expected to be negatively influenced by perhaps a half-gram's worth of missing skin from a region of his body that is going to be routinely covered in rash for the next couple of years?

    I suspect that I slept through my birthing, but I do have memories from my first six months and I do recall that at the time I had memories that went back months. The brain is learning at high speed during those months, trying to make sense of its surroundings. During my first years I never had a rash on my genitals. My mother used lots of talcum powder.
     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Caius
    The other point I want to address is the asinine suggestion that has been made repetitively by one poster that circumcision somehow contributes to an increased incidence of mutated alleles -- normally I wouldn't waste the time addressing this issue but it seems a few people have at least considered that there's some truth to this claim, which is a bit disturbing.

    That is too bad that you are disturbed. Y'know, two people - slaves of course - here have mailed me, one-eyer, in recognition of me being wise.
     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Caius
    Rule, seeing as I have some significant background in evolutionary theory as regards human physiological adaptation, I wonder if you might share with us some detail on the mechanisms you've alluded to that supposedly cause these massive genetic variations.

    Of course! It is all in the last chapter - written one to three years ago - of my book about chronic diseases. In Dutch, but one ought to be able to read it with the help of a dictionary, as it is a fairly short chapter. (Today for the first time in nearly a year, or 2.5 years, I have started to work on this book again. Yah me! I hope to complete it in about three months.) Do you want to buy a copy? I know that Termyn8or and Lockit want a copy.
     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Caius
    we all share ONE gene pool...

    We do? Did not your tutors instruct you about reproduction barriers? It is even in the Kor-an ("We made thou as peoples and countries that thou mayest know each other".)
    Homo sapiens sapiens is one species and there is more genetic variation in populations than between populations and alleles are exchanged between populations, but to say that there is only one gene pool is a contradictio in terminis. Do not you know what a population is? It is a gene pool.




    Rule -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 2:19:57 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

    Circumcision? Still?  You guys are stretching this out a bit aren't you?

    [:D]


    Is that pun intended?[;)]
     
    the.dark.

    lol!




    Caius -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 2:29:47 PM)

    Well, to be honest with you, I'm not sure your question, if I'm reading it right, is best defined as an issue of adaptation.  As others have noted here, circumcision is just one marginal factor in a wide array of social and medical determinants affecting HIV virulency, many of which make the influence of circumcission far less significant than it may at first seem when you hear that, in a strictly physiological sense, circumcision reduces the rate of contraction by 50%.  Afterall, if a society makes great efforts to educate on other methods of prevention, this benefit might be rendered virtually mute.   And keep in mind that reduced or increased numbers of persons with the disease do not necesarily translate to increased growth rate in the spread of the disease; in a way, stablized numbers are a victory of their own given any disease should tend to spread exponetnially until sufficent immunity has been built to it in the infected populus (somethign which, of course, does not happen as readily with AIDS as it does many other viral conditions because the very nature of the disease inhibits this function).  We may not have succeeded in reducing the total number of HIV positive persons, but we're light years ahead of where we were not so many years ago when HIV growth rates were astronomically higher.  Another factor that skews the impression of the raw numbers a bit is the fact that HIV-positive persons are living a lot longer and thus maintain the numbers; a better index is new cases of HIV infection per capita, but this may have been what you were refering to to begin with.   Lastly, as regards the circumcission-HIV correlation, it's important to note that unless circumcision rates change, we can expect that they will have a more or less constant effect upon infection rates.

    I too am neither particularly pro- or anti-circumcision as I don't view it as particularly significant, though I do believe that what little medical advantage exists is to be found in applying circumcision as opposed to avoiding it.  But penile cancer is fairly rare and I don't believe the advantages for STD infection are terribly cumulative with safe sex (or at least, the practice of safe sex is a much more important preventative measure).  Personally, I think the main advantage is in convenience  and hygiene  in situations where one may not be able to bathe properly -- ironically, this makes Americans amongst the least likely to strictly speaking "need" the procedure, though they are amongst the leading practitioners.

    I hope this addresses the issue you were getting at.





    Rule -> RE: Circumcision (7/10/2008 2:32:09 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Caius
    Heh, well,  I do in the sense that I've unfortunately met the acquaintance of many hateful bigots

    So now I am a hateful bigot, am I? So whom do I hate? You seem to know more about it than I do.
     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Caius
    people should be given as accurate a view of the medical implications as possible, regardless of whether such information is currently directly relevant to them.

    As I said before: evolutionary algorithms are implacable. Listen to medics or listen to me (and saint Paul) - or make up your own mind. Three choices. Which one will natural selection favour?




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