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RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 9:48:08 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoDommeDivas

Thanks, so far. To answer the question, yes, we have asked him outright if he is married, several times, giving him every chance in the world to come clean on his own.

And it's not the book, per se, that's my problem. It's that he is concealing what is obviously a huge and important part of his life, a thing that makes him who he is. And that matters to our approach to play, and to whether or not he is someone we would want to collar, among other things.

I'm pissed that he has wasted our time and deceived us, and he also has something of ours that I want returned.

Who knows, maybe he'll see this thread and take the opportunity to come clean.

I am still confused what bothers you more, that you think that he is married or that he is a christian who published a book.
Just because he may not have told you his religious choice doesn't mean he is hiding it. I don't tell people my spiritual stance straight away unless it comes up in conversation and from you you have said, you only met with him last night? How long have you known this man? You have only been on this site less than a month, so if you met him here and only met face to face last night, I would suggest you are expecting a little too much too soon. Maybe you just do not have compatable time frames in which case the relationship will not succeed anyway.

the.dark.

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Post #: 21

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 9:50:09 AM

Battleflag

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Hi, we're new. :)

Welcomes! :)

Should his marital status matter?

If he lied to you about it, yes. It also sounds like you don't want anyone married in the first place, so even if he is and didn't lie about it, yes.

Should his lying matter?

If in fact he is, Yes. You sound like smart people... if it feels like he's holding back or hiding something it's a deal breaker already, right?

One of us is more concerned with the lying, the other is more concerned with his relationship. Do we have any responsibility not to fuck up his marriage? What if he has children?

Do you have a responsibility? What about others around him? Well... not in a strict sense that he's yours (he's not) and he should be able to look out for himself and his own. There is also the idea that even though we are not bound to do so that we consider our actions towards people around us anyway. When it comes to BDSM I think we as practitioners bear a greater part of an unspoken social contract in as far as introducing new people and ensuring a good experience. Say you disregard all the signs and accept him and then find out your initial instincts were true?

Should the book thing matter?

The fact that he wrote it? No. But between the book and his own D/s interests there's the fact that he is possibly split on a deep level and can't reconcile two things he believes and identifies with. Do you want to deal with that?

And if so, what should we do about it?

Without knowing more I'd say stand back and get to know him better before anything else.

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Post #: 22

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 9:50:53 AM

Viridana

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Does it matter if he's married?
Yes and no. If the wife knows and agrees to all that is about to happen than it doesn't matter. If he's cheating on his wife than she becomes a non-consensual partner in all of this. That in my mind does matter.

Does it matter that he lied?
That depends on your ethos about lying. For me, I'd consider that totally unacceptable. If a person lies about one thing (and a pretty crucial one imo), then what stops him from lying again? Would you have to worry about honesty everytime he opens his cakehole? Is that something that you'd find acceptable? Another thing to think about in a situation like this is, that if he is infact cheating on his wife, then he's lying to the one person he vowed to honor.... if he's willing and capable of lying to that person, imagine how much honor and respect you'd get.

< Message edited by Viridana -- 7/10/2008 9:51:31 AM >

(in reply to Anoush)

Post #: 23

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 9:57:18 AM

DiurnalVampire

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Maybe I am looking at this in a different light. Yes the lying is a major problem... and so would be the hypocracy. If he is a life long devoted Christian that is so devoted to his faith as to be writing books about it... then why is he (a) pursuing a relaitonship with 2 women he will not be marrying (unless you are going to have a strictly nonsexual relationship) and (b) cheating if he is cheating... adultry is defiantely not allowable in the bible. I am sure if he did his research he would know that.
He might have left the book out becasue although he presents himself as living by the Christian merits he places in the books, he doesnt actually do so and he didnt wat you to judge him by it.

Regardless of the situation, you two are both getting red flags and a bad feeling... no matter what the reasoning behind it thats when it is time to turn tail and find someone else.

DV

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(in reply to Anoush)

Post #: 24

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 10:02:57 AM

SylvereApLeanan

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If it's a major issue, you could ask him to show you a copy of his divorce decree. Permit him to black out things like social security numbers, his spouse's name, children's names, etc. but make sure it has his name, the date of execution, and a judge's signature. If he can't do that or something else along those lines, then he's probably still married. At that point, you will know for sure.

In my mind, whether or not he's married isn't particularly relevant as long as he's honest about it. I wouldn't consider his failure to mention the book a matter for suspicion. He may not have thought it was relevant to the play. I tend to agree that it's not, although it's something interesting to note. You haven't been here very long so you can't have been speaking with him for long. You can't reasonably expect him to give up every tidbit of information in one fell swoop. It takes time to build trust, even in an ideal situation. Treat this like any other relationship -- expect a little courtship on both sides of the kneel.

However, in the event that he did lie about his marital status, I would drop him like a hot rock. Get your things back and tell him goodbye. In your place, I wouldn't punish him. It's just not classy and probably won't do any good anyway. A liar is a liar and nothing you do to him will change it.

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(in reply to Anoush)

Post #: 25

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 10:59:00 AM

RumpusParable

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoDommeDivas

Should either of those things matter?

To me, the lying would matter because that's the base problem in all of it. He could be lying about anything in the world, it would still be lying to you.

On a different note, the book thing I would just find creepy depending on what the book said. If it was just on the topic of Christianity, then no problem. If it was on Christianity and how he found anything like what he was looking to do with you to be wrong, immoral, etc then I'd consider there to be too many issues there probably to deal with.

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Post #: 26

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 10:59:14 AM

ownedgirlie

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I see too many "shoulds" and assumptions in the OP for me to even attempt to answer the questions posed. It does seem that there is a lack of trust on both sides, such that neither side seems comfortable talking to the other about it. That's not the way I would want to build a relationship - casual or otherwise.

You asked if he's married, more than once. He said no, more than once. You don't believe him. Have you told him you don't believe him?

You have assumed he has lied. Have you asked him directly about lying? How do you feel about lying? If lying falls outside your moral code, then why ask others if lying should matter or not? It obviously matters to you, and that's what counts in this situation.

As for the book, does it matter to you? Have you discussed your concerns with him about it? I would take issue with someone preaching a certain moralistic view to his public but not believing in it himself. Are you certain this is the case with him?

What I would do about it is talk to him about my concerns and make a decision to go forward or not based on the outcome of that conversation. But it sounds like there is such a lack of trust at this point that there is no use in continuing.

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Post #: 27

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 11:01:51 AM

Evility

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My take:

Marital status: You have to make up your own mind on that and it seems that you already have. That's fine, if he indeed turns out to be married. If it matters to you then it matters to you. End of discussion.

Lying: Are you certain he's lying at this point? You say you have evidence. Do you have proof? Convicting someone without proof is just as bad as lying in to me. I have little use for either types of people in my life.

The book: If you asked him if he wrote such a piece or any book at all and he denied having done so then that is one thing. If he never mentioned it then this is not a lie of omission to me. It's not the everyday sort of thing that pops up in discussion.

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Post #: 28

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 11:35:53 AM

roland23

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This is extrordinarily politically incorrect, I think it is a matter of personal choice. I would never reject anyone because they are married, BUT and this is an important BUT, if they are using me to escape from their marriage, it is a problem. It is also a problem if they have a suspicious and dangerous spouse(we seem to have a surplus of them in the USA) who wants to know where they are at all times. In either case, I would not have anything to do with such a person. My greatest relationships were with two subs, one of whom was separated from her husband, the other had been married for over twenty years and the guy either didn't know or didn't care. Again, if you are against extramarital affairs do not get into them, but do not get hysterical about people who happily engage in such situations. Thank you, all the best,

(in reply to Evility)

Post #: 29

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 11:37:59 AM

TwoDommeDivas

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So many great posts, thank you.

Yes, we have evidence. Out of respect for him -- perhaps misguided -- I don't want to repeat it in a public forum. As for proof, what is proof? Proof is evidence that is believed to some standard of certainty. I think we have him by a preponderance of the evidence, maybe even clear and convincing evidence, but not beyond a reasonable doubt. We have confronted him via email today, and are awaiting his response, which he promised "within the hour." (Why he couldn't answer right then is curious.)

The lying is a big deal, definitely. If he's lying -- and if he refuses to come clean about it -- he's history. The marriage part is a big thing for me, but not so much for my partner. The way I see it, we are all as human beings morally responsible for the knowing or foreseeable harm that we cause to others. Knowing that he's married (and cheating) makes harm to his innocent wife (and children?) a plainly foreseeable event. Playing with him under those circumstances presents an unreasonable risk of harm to his family. That's the way I see it. But my partner thinks that's none of our business; however, she doesn't want to invite trouble from a crazy wife or something, so in the end we both agree on the right action, I think.

As for the book, it's not really about the book, but my question is about hypocracy to his own professed moral code, and what that means to us in a practical sense. It seems to me that a devoted Christian who shuns BDSM life as immoral, but cheats on his wife to engage in it, is likely to experience high levels of shame in the wake of playing. That shame can easily manifest itself by transference of inner hate to an outer target: Us. I don't need that crap. The Christian thing by itself, can even make things fun. It would be a blast to tie him to a whipping post and rail about the Alpha and Omega, and the fires of Hell, and such, while working him out with floggers and singletails. Maybe even a good fantasy for the sub. But bring deception and shame into it, and you've got a recipe for potential trouble. At least, that was my thinking, and I was wondering if others would come to the same conclusion.

I wonder if he'll really write us back....

< Message edited by TwoDommeDivas -- 7/10/2008 11:39:05 AM >

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Post #: 30

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 11:41:10 AM

Leatherist

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I agree about the transference thing. I have seen the same thing happen with humiliation sluts I have played with. It can be a very slippery slope-and really-no one needs that crap-when someone BEGS you for it to begin with.

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Post #: 31

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 11:49:48 AM

Drakcon

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I was just reading through this and came across some thoughts, in the economic times we currently have, I know many that have roommates, I also currently know 3 couples that are indeed divorced and 2 are in fact housemates and 1 they are basically house mates cause of there kids but once kids are gone they so say they will part ways, all 3 couples have lives outside of what used to be "married" life, they see people and do "things", there choice, I think it would be very hard for some to do so looking at the logistics of doing so, who knows maybe this could end up being a new way for them to rekindle the reasons the got their divorces to begin with..... another topic I'm sure,

Proof and suspecion cause of behaviour does not consitute proof, if that is where your thoughts run (and i could have missed something in reading, but that sounds like what is the case), people are odd in general with the way we do things and or make assoications to items that we are alien too.

Should marital status matter? If he is choosing to do this with out his spouses knowledge, then something got lost in there marriage anyway and its going to crash be it you are involved or not. Is it your fault that it should crash? No, its his, completely. No other person for him or the spouse to blame except himself. You not causing the crash in being a participant in knowing or doing with him.

My wife got involved with a married man, i told her to drop it cause we did not need the drama, she went with her own decision which she got paid back for, yep they got caught, and his wife felt it necessary to call ME and tell me how i ruined there marriage , Wrong thing to do with me, I retorted our marriage was open that first off i had nothing to do with it, and second there marriage was ruined anyway with or without my wife's involvement and that obviously something very important was missing from their marriage for him to go looking, at which point the line went silent and then she hung up.

Same conditions apply, if he's cheating, then something is missing from there relationship and he cant talk with her about it, or she wont have anything to do with the listening and working it out.

This book thing, even if its a big thing in his life, does not mean he goes with the same thought he wrote about at the time of the book, people have a change of opinion often on many subjects, all you have to do is look at a politician, they change stance on issues on a regular basis, I don't believe a thing they tell me, but i need to pick the better of the evils at hand, personally i think the book is a moot point. He may have fears of acceptance from it, that's his inner battle to deal with, not a strike cause he left it out.

This thing about a suprise, i assume a pay back is meant, I have to ask, what right do you, or I or anyone else in the world, to cast judgement on another? If he lied, then part ways and leave it at that, its not anyones place to judge another, no matter what the offense, that is left to juries and when we finally depart this planet.

That would be my 2 cents for the day.

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Post #: 32

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 11:57:05 AM

batshalom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoDommeDivas

Proof is evidence that is believed to some standard of certainty. I think we have him by a preponderance of the evidence, maybe even clear and convincing evidence, but not beyond a reasonable doubt. We have confronted him via email today, and are awaiting his response, which he promised "within the hour." (Why he couldn't answer right then is curious.)

I have had partners in the past who had trouble with trust.

He: "Did you shake your ass at any men at the store?"
Me: "Of course not, Master. I wouldn't dare."
He: "I don't believe you. Did you shake your ass at any men at the store?"
Me: "Of course not, Master. I wouldn't dare."
He: "I don't believe you. Did you shake your ass at any men at the store?"

Arrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

Very irritating, to say the least.

If your evidence is good, and you do indeed prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that he's married, fine. Until then you're just beating a nearly-dead horse.

If you're this suspicious, be done with it and save all of you the hassle.

As to why he can't answer right away, that's more fuel for your lack-of-trust mobile. The truth of the matter is that there could be a zillion viable reasons why he can't answer right now. (One of the answers may well be that he has to formulate a good and believable response, but until your suspicions are proven correct it seems like such unpleasantness to spend this amount of time on guilt-conjecture.)

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Post #: 33

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 12:04:22 PM

TwoDommeDivas

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Well, he wrote back, and he finally owned up to being married and not telling his wife about this. So now we have to figure out where we go from here. At least he came clean, and I am a forgiving sort....to a point. But a continuing deception of his wife might be a problem for me.

We haven't talked about his faith yet. That's small potatoes, as most have concluded.

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RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 12:13:28 PM

hlen5

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Are you prepared to play detective 24/7 and go through this with everything he tells you? He just told you (and got caught) with lie #1. Good Luck.

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Post #: 35

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 12:15:26 PM

Leatherist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoDommeDivas

Well, he wrote back, and he finally owned up to being married and not telling his wife about this. So now we have to figure out where we go from here. At least he came clean, and I am a forgiving sort....to a point. But a continuing deception of his wife might be a problem for me.

We haven't talked about his faith yet. That's small potatoes, as most have concluded.

Call me hard nosed-but I would have dropped a woman like a hot potato on just the suspicion.

But do as you see fit-I hope it works out for you.

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RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 12:34:10 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoDommeDivas

Well, he wrote back, and he finally owned up to being married and not telling his wife about this. So now we have to figure out where we go from here. At least he came clean, and I am a forgiving sort....to a point. But a continuing deception of his wife might be a problem for me.

We haven't talked about his faith yet. That's small potatoes, as most have concluded.

You're more forgiving that I or my colleague would be -- especially knowing that he would be compounding the lie to -me- by lying to his wife on an ongoing basis... nope. I may not be "moral" according to societal norms, but I am certainly ethical, and the combination of his lie to me and his ongoing deceit in his marital contract would broach my ethics. If he was married and she knew about this (which we actually confirm by talking to the wife/husband of a married partner), his being married wouldn't mean diddly doo... but being deceitful and sneaky?... it's really difficult to manage that behavior in someone else.

Firestorm

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RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 12:39:17 PM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoDommeDivas
Well, he wrote back, and he finally owned up to being married and not telling his wife about this. So now we have to figure out where we go from here. At least he came clean, and I am a forgiving sort....to a point. But a continuing deception of his wife might be a problem for me.

But a "onetime deception" would be ok? He must be really frikkin hot.

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Post #: 38

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 1:12:53 PM

chasen

Posts: 7
Status: offline

Hello everyone

If It was me...

quote:

Should his marital status matter?

No AS LONG AS HE/SHE WERE HONEST ABOUT IT UP FRONT. In addition to this, I, personally, would request that I be allowed to talk to the spouse privatly.

quote:

Should his lying matter?

Yes. I take honesty very seriously. A lie, to me, shows a lack of care and respect for my feelings.

quote:

Should the book thing matter?

This does not concern me.

quote:

And if so, what should we do about it?

I can not answer this; all I can do is tell you what I, myself, would do.

(in reply to TwoDommeDivas)

Post #: 39

RE: Should marital status matter? - 7/10/2008 1:25:50 PM

pinkwind

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Out of respect for him you won't let us know more than you have "proof", and so far i cannot tell if that so called "proof" should be treated with more credence than this man's word, but you posting this here to me personally is very disrespectful whether or not you reveal any more.

And if i were him i would turn my back on the prospective relationship if, at the first sign of a perceived but not proven discrepancy you bring the issue to a public forum for others to pour over and give comment.

And no, if all parties are sanguine i do not see marital status being any kind of barrier.

(in reply to TwoDommeDivas)

Post #: 40

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