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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 10:45:45 AM

SirDominic

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I think putting it in the terms of the "desperate" rather than the "stupid" is going in the right direction. Sure, desperate people can consent, unfortunately. The question is should they? Most times the answer is no. Desperate people do not make good decisions as most of the time they are consenting for all the wrong reasons.

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 10:49:40 AM

SailingBum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

What does "informed consent" mean if the person is stupid?

Akasha

Your kidding right. I see it happen here on this board all the time. SHEESH

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Post #: 22

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 10:54:16 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

I think putting it in the terms of the "desperate" rather than the "stupid" is going in the right direction. Sure, desperate people can consent, unfortunately. The question is should they? Most times the answer is no. Desperate people do not make good decisions as most of the time they are consenting for all the wrong reasons.

I agree with this, SirDominic. But it is my opinion that "desperate people" are people who are in a lot of pain and don't have the knowledge or skills on how to deal with it. But everyone is deficient in something.

What if, with the right coaching and patience, a desperate (or to some, stupid) person makes the right decisions? Should they have been denied that opportunity because they didn't fit society's mold of how intelligent they should be in a particular area?

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Post #: 23

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 10:54:29 AM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I think one has to define stupid better to have an honest answer to the question.

I think you need the same maturity to get into a BDSM dynamic as you do to get into any vanilla dynamic. That's not a matter of smarts but being able to tell reality from fantasy, possible from probable, and being able to balance your life.

Some of the world's smartest people haven't been very good at those things and often require spouses and aids to help them.

What a great reply.

I probably shouldn't even post to this thread because I find it to be rude and arrogant and I'd take stupid over that any day.

Thanks, TammyJo, for keeping it real.

I didn't take it in that context, so didn't see it as being rude or arrogant. I mean, you've just got to admit, no matter how kind we are being there is alot of stupid behaviour that leads a person to shake their head and think........"my GAWD that person is dumber than a post!!!"

Granted, I am a snarky rude bitch (I don't think I've quite mastered arrogant yet) and I do see alot of snarky humour is the stupidity of humankind.

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Post #: 24

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 10:59:35 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
I didn't take it in that context, so didn't see it as being rude or arrogant. I mean, you've just got to admit, no matter how kind we are being there is alot of stupid behaviour that leads a person to shake their head and think........"my GAWD that person is dumber than a post!!!"

Granted, I am a snarky rude bitch (I don't think I've quite mastered arrogant yet) and I do see alot of snarky humour is the stupidity of humankind.

Hi LaTigresse, thanks for posting what you did. Yes, I think there are a lot of situations that qualify as you described. I guess I just view the idea of calling someone on their stupidity, in the way I so often witness, as being destructive, rather than constructive. And to create a thread with this title, to me, seems very condescending. It rubs me wrong.

I tend to view "stupidity" as something that, with the right effort, can be turned around into something good. Everyone has the potential for goodness - even greatness - in my opinion.

I guess we all have our pet peeves. This is one of mine.

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Post #: 25

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 11:09:32 AM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

What does "informed consent" mean if the person is stupid?

Akasha

Unless we are talking about a mental dissability,we realy have no business discussing whether or not less "bright" people should be allowed to "consent"...hell take a ride down any road in Ameica and You will see all sort's of "stupid" people doing "stupid" things while operating a motor vehicle...how informed consent needs a higher degree of intelligence than a driver's license is beyond me...but than again I'm not so "bright"

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Post #: 26

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 11:09:35 AM

LaTigresse

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Owned, I understand what you are saying. I guess we all look at it from a slightly different place and definition. What you describe I generally think of as ignorance and fixable. Stupidity is reserved for those people that no matter how many times they run into the brick wall they keep doing it hoping a doorway is going to magically appear and they will quit leaving brick prints on their face.

We all have our unique points of view and yours is alot kinder, gentler and more forgiving than my bitchy one.

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Post #: 27

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 12:10:41 PM

stella41b

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Aha. Now I see.

I just see a moot point here in a way. Going by the OP we can assume that intelligent people are being asked about whether stupid people should have 'informed consent'. But how do we know if anyone is stupid? You see, they might be intelligent, but we just don't understand their way of thinking or logic.

You see someone's 'desperate' can be someone else's 'impatient', and someone else's 'gung ho attitude.' We may think that someone is stupid for constantly arriving at the same result after the same course of actions, which ends of course in failure, but you know this could also be 'persistence', 'tenacity', 'perseverance'. Not everybody can achieve success, or even a successful relationship at the snap of their fingers.

My 'stupid' here is 'irresponsible' together with 'foolish'. But I see this all the time. However I also see it as a part of human nature and a part of life, something which affects all of us, not just selected people.

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Post #: 28

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 12:15:04 PM

masterforRT

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There's an old saying: "If stupidity was a crime, we'd all be in jail!"

So my reply (after my initial HUH????) would be yes.

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Post #: 29

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 1:02:46 PM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

Aha. Now I see.

I just see a moot point here in a way. Going by the OP we can assume that intelligent people are being asked about whether stupid people should have 'informed consent'. But how do we know if anyone is stupid? You see, they might be intelligent, but we just don't understand their way of thinking or logic.

You see someone's 'desperate' can be someone else's 'impatient', and someone else's 'gung ho attitude.' We may think that someone is stupid for constantly arriving at the same result after the same course of actions, which ends of course in failure, but you know this could also be 'persistence', 'tenacity', 'perseverance'. Not everybody can achieve success, or even a successful relationship at the snap of their fingers.

My 'stupid' here is 'irresponsible' together with 'foolish'. But I see this all the time. However I also see it as a part of human nature and a part of life, something which affects all of us, not just selected people.

I asked the question in a deliberately blunt and potentially offensive manner to get people to stop and think about how riduclous it is to try to measure "informed consent" and come up with any kind of a standard regarding what "consent" is anyway - beyond not forcing anyone to do S&M by abduction, physical force or manipulation.

Akasha

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Post #: 30

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 1:37:18 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
We all have our unique points of view and yours is alot kinder, gentler and more forgiving than my bitchy one.

Ehh but I still love ya!!

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Post #: 31

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 1:51:52 PM

HeavansKeeper

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<QR>

Legally speaking, the only ways consent cannot be given is if:

The consent was forced or coerced.
The consent was given by someone incompetent.
The consent was given by someone insane. (Insane implies incompetent, though)

Outside of the law, people have all sorts of mood changes. What I'll consent to eat changes with how hungry I am. *spies the cat*

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Post #: 32

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 1:58:53 PM

MmeGigs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
How about this then: Can desperate people submit?
Do people have diminished reasoning capability when they are desperate? Do they take inappropriate risk?
How about horny men? Does an erect cock sometimes cloud their ability to make rational decisions?
Are these situations really "informed consent"?

Sure. If I have the information I need to make my decision and choose to ignore the negative info and think with my crotch, I'm still giving informed consent.  If I find later that I was an idiot and regret having given consent, well, tough crap. No one can protect me from myself if I'm determined to do something stupid.

I think some folks get kind of weird about "informed consent", insisting that it requires discussion and explicit acceptance of every conceivable risk no matter how slight or unlikely. Others use those same requirements to insist that "informed consent" is an unrealistic expectation. I think that "informed consent" is a pretty fundamental and important concept. My partner(s) and I should be aware of the risks we're taking. We shouldn't conceal or misrepresent important information.  The fact that some folks can have all of the information (or easy access to it) and still make dumb decisions out of horniness or desperation or plain stupidity doesn't change any of that.

Whether some folks take inappropriate risks or make irrational decisions is creeping out of the realm of consent and into safe and sane. I think that those things are almost always best left to the people involved. Unless they're asking for my opinion, inviting me to join in, or the thing they're contemplating is so inherently dangerous or irretrievably stupid that I'm going to personally intervene or call the authorities to stop them, I figure it's none of my business.  This isn't a philosophical stand for me, it's a pragmatic one.  If I stick my nose into other people's business I accept the risk of being pulled into their drama.  I definitely don't want that. If I feel that I can decide what is appropriate or inappropriate for others, I can't tell people who stick their nose in my business to fuck off without being a hypocrite. I don't want that, either.

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Post #: 33

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 2:16:52 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper

<QR>

Legally speaking, the only ways consent cannot be given is if:

The consent was forced or coerced.
The consent was given by someone incompetent.
The consent was given by someone insane. (Insane implies incompetent, though)

Outside of the law, people have all sorts of mood changes. What I'll consent to eat changes with how hungry I am. *spies the cat*

I find this a lot more difficult to measure/ascertain than the criteria that I use... I'm assuming that, by 'incompetent' you're meaning a person who has been ruled incapable of handling their own affairs ... you know.. Britney Spears-like...

What bothers me is the use of the term 'insane' -- I find it difficult, down beneath the quieter levels of sanity, far beneath the obvious iceberg tip of the criminal sociopath, to determine what, exactly, qualifies someone as "insane"... Do they speak to God and have God speak back? They must be insane... or maybe they're a saint. Do they believe every word in this weird book, and insist on following every piece that the author wrote every day? They must be insane... or maybe their just religious fundamentalists (or Goreans or Church of All Worlders or Scientologists). Do they seek out activities that would induce pain and/or disfigurment? They must be insane ... or maybe they're just into body modification. Do they hear voices or smell smells that nobody else does, or feel sensations that nobody else does? They must be insane ... or perhaps they're exhibiting parapsychological phenomena.

It is impossible to determine sanity in a basically functional person. It is relatively easy to diagnose neurotic behaviors and neuroses, and easy to medicate them and send them on their happy little way... but the diagnosis of psychoses is complicated and problematic, especially because the very same 'symptoms' that we consider psychotic in our society are highly prized in other cultures as proof that one is special, sacred, and more connected to the Universe than the rest of society. If you want to put it in truly blunt terms, if Jesus Christ were alive today, he would surely be locked up in a mental institution (if not rotting away in jail for trying to destroy a church or two). If Einstien were alive today, he would have spent 10-12 years in detention or in special schools for his 'behavior problems', and would certainly have been laughed out of every board room in the States. If Napoleon were alive today, we would be showing him with roses for protecting us from the bad ol' foreigners.

Sanity is determined by people who have a vested interest in keeping all the sheep safely in the pen. I prefer to be a wolf among the sheep, and jump the fence when it suits me... I do my best to avoid the shepherd's gun... but I'd rather go down to the gun than be 'fleeced' for 30 years.

My criteria for 'sanity' is "do you freak me out by being a total wierdo every time we meet (wierdo by my standards) or can I live with the freakishness you represent?.. does your sense of self and sanity mesh with what is already in place?

Firestorm

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 7/11/2008 2:18:18 PM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 2:21:32 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

How about this then: Can desperate people submit?
Do people have diminished reasoning capability when they are desperate? Do they take inappropriate risk?
How about horny men? Does an erect cock sometimes cloud their ability to make rational decisions?
Are these situations really "informed consent"?

Akasha

Let's compare this to a guy on his way home from work getting run off the road by a big biker gang member. Now he could allow his anger to get the better of him and have a fist fight with somebody twice his size or he could go to the gym and work it off. His choice.

Same thing here. You can allow your emotion to cloud your reason or you can do the right thing. It's a choice. People are attracted to others every day, but saying "they were so hot, I had no choice but to cheat" doesn't wash with anyone. We are capable of overriding our emotional knee jerk responses.

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Post #: 35

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 2:36:49 PM

Owner4SexSlave

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Stupid people consent to a lot of things everyday. Be it high interest rate credit cards, overseas scams. Stupid people believe their new girl is going to show up at the Newark airport from the Ukraine after they sent $800 wire transfer to cover for things. Stupid people buy stupid shit that breaks. Many people consent and agree to all kinds of things.

The worse kind are the ones that are basically told that they are going to get screwed yet they still go through with things.

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Post #: 36

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 2:37:40 PM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

Aha. Now I see.

I just see a moot point here in a way. Going by the OP we can assume that intelligent people are being asked about whether stupid people should have 'informed consent'. But how do we know if anyone is stupid? You see, they might be intelligent, but we just don't understand their way of thinking or logic.

You see someone's 'desperate' can be someone else's 'impatient', and someone else's 'gung ho attitude.' We may think that someone is stupid for constantly arriving at the same result after the same course of actions, which ends of course in failure, but you know this could also be 'persistence', 'tenacity', 'perseverance'. Not everybody can achieve success, or even a successful relationship at the snap of their fingers.

My 'stupid' here is 'irresponsible' together with 'foolish'. But I see this all the time. However I also see it as a part of human nature and a part of life, something which affects all of us, not just selected people.

This is very true also. Which goes back to a recent thread on being judgmental. Something we all do in some form or another. And some of us in a farrrrr more negative light than others. Something I am very guilty of. But, I am not going to change because it has served me well for 46 years.

Today a customer came in to pick up the business cards we printed for him. Business cards that proclaimed him to "the second coming of the lord christ." and yes, it is right there on his card and yes, he is serious.

To me, he is a creepy, smelly, wacko. I am being judgemental and for all I know.........he really is what he claims he is and I will burn in eternal damnation.

As far as my own intelligence/stupidity.......I am guessing I am somewhere in the happy, ignorant middle.

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to stella41b)

Post #: 37

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 3:19:46 PM

HeavansKeeper

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The legal gold standard for sanity is the M'Nahten rule (also Durham). To be considered insane a person must not be aware of what they did AND not be aware that the action was wrong. Durham relies on a mental disease or defect that enabled the crime, and would otherwise not have occured.

Those are pretty strict. If a person talks to god or manipulated their body or belongs to a cult is not a factor.

I agree its a messy situation, but we have to do something.

For practical purposes, I have a far reduced requirement for insane. I try take into account the person's background, education, and current state of mind. Like bus drivers, we just have to trust that for all the individual differences, they're overall ok.

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Post #: 38

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 5:01:57 PM

Owner4SexSlave

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Can stupid people consent? Just as much as they are allowed to breed, fuck, buy high priced crappy car insurance, raise stupid kids and do the things in the stupid manner that they do already.

Sorry, nobody is going to Chlorinate the Gene pool any time soon.   I don't think anybody has attempted Mass Genocide based on IQ scores, yet.   I'm certain there are a few that would if they magically became supreame overlord of the planet Earth.

Rude and Harsh law of reality dictates that even stupid people have the right to consent, the very same rights that intelligent people do.

I waiting for Warning Labels in several languages to be placed on the outside of boxed goods.   Warning contains heavy contents, if opened improperly cause injury to your feet. Be certain to place this boxed item on a sturdy flat non-frictionless surface while opening.

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Post #: 39

RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 5:03:50 PM

petdave

Posts: 2479
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

How about this then: Can desperate people submit?

Absolutely. We've got the numbers.

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Post #: 40

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