RE: Criminals in the White House (Full Version)

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Thadius -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/13/2008 11:20:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


Rendition is a practice I find objectionable but it isn't US agents torturing people which I find much more objectionable.

Bush ignored multiple Senate ratified treaties making torture illegal. Until he actually officially removes the US from those treaties he's a criminal in violation of the law fo the land. The people who follow those absolutely unquestionably illegal orders are bringing shame to all of us who served this nation faithfully and honorably.

You can bleat all you want but you've already made statements meaning you don't honor the oath you swore which pretty much makes any further claims of yours irrelevant.


Which treaties have we violated, and against which nation(s)?



DomAviator -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/13/2008 11:25:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Rendition is a practice I find objectionable but it isn't US agents torturing people which I find much more objectionable.

Bush ignored multiple Senate ratified treaties making torture illegal. Until he actually officially removes the US from those treaties he's a criminal in violation of the law fo the land. The people who follow those absolutely unquestionably illegal orders are bringing shame to all of us who served this nation faithfully and honorably.

You can bleat all you want but you've already made statements meaning you don't honor the oath you swore which pretty much makes any further claims of yours irrelevant.


OK Let me make sure I got this straight...

1) Putting panties on peoples heads, and playing naked twister is "illegal" and it makes the president and all who obey him "criminals"

HOWEVER

2) Going into a soverign nation using an aircraft with a falsified registration number, then having a team abduct someone off the street, drugging them, cutting their clothes off, giving them an enema, taping their eyes and mouth shut, putting a diaper on them., stuffing them in a sack, and then flying them to a black site so they can be torturerd by the Egyptian authorities, the South Afrikaaners, the Chineese, or various eastern european types while our CIA agents sit there and take notes is a practice you find "objectionable"....

I see republicans put panties on the head its bad, democrat orders the CIA to start kidnapping foreign nationals over the objection of the host nation is "objectionable". Its OK to kidnap people, hand them over to someone else to torture, and then use the intel they collect... HOWEVER, when we do it - its bad right? The question is whose panties they are or what???

Oddly enough AL GORE said its illegal. He said its illegal and to do it anyway. LMFAO. Clintons own boy Richard Clarke said on pahe 143 of Enemies:

The first time I proposed a snatch, in 1993, the White House Counsel, Lloyd Cutler, demanded a meeting with the President to explain how it violated international law. Clinton had seemed to be siding with Cutler until Al Gore belatedly joined the meeting, having just flown overnight from South Africa. Clinton recapped the arguments on both sides for Gore: Lloyd says this. Dick says that. Gore laughed and said, 'That's a no-brainer. Of course it's a violation of international law, that's why it's a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass.



popeye1250 -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/13/2008 11:58:06 PM)

I hope this isn't meant to be a Clinton vs Bush thread because they're *BOTH* fucking scumbags.
We have a seperation of "Church and State" in this country we also need a seperation of business and state!
Throw all those scumbag lobbyists out of Washington and into prison for corruption.



slvemike4u -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 12:08:15 AM)

Disingenuous to say the least DA,which is what i will try to do with Your post.Thadius what was the Nuremberg Trails if not a world Court,are You suggesting that in some cases we are citizens of the world,and in other's they can kiss our ass.
     But lets back away from the moral and the legal,is it not a problem when the Government of this country start's acting like players in a Mack Sennett Comedy, to be specific The Keystone Cops...Torture is and always has been a piss-poor way to obtain real actionable- intelligence,and how did our erstwhile brain trust at the top implement a program of torture not having, despite the erroneous assertion of an earlier poster,much experience in the field they looked to Korea -era manuals from the ChiComs.Please folks this is criminal on that basis alone...criminal stupidity...so what we have here is for little actual intelligence,and what is gained is of questionable veracity, in exchange we trade away a little bit of America's moral high ground...fuck a world court the citizens of this country should be outraged at what has been done.
  And now back to DA's post(I know i said I wouldn't )so You would like to take the conversation back to the actions of the previous administration,now that may divert  attention but how does it address the issue.BTW what is being discussed here is torture ,not whether or not some MP got their jolly's sticking panties on some schmucks head as despicable as these practices are they are small potatoes when discussing water boarding ,stress positions,sleep deprivation...You know all that fun stuff they used in your training ...right out of the ChiCom manual



DomKen -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 6:34:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


Rendition is a practice I find objectionable but it isn't US agents torturing people which I find much more objectionable.

Bush ignored multiple Senate ratified treaties making torture illegal. Until he actually officially removes the US from those treaties he's a criminal in violation of the law fo the land. The people who follow those absolutely unquestionably illegal orders are bringing shame to all of us who served this nation faithfully and honorably.

You can bleat all you want but you've already made statements meaning you don't honor the oath you swore which pretty much makes any further claims of yours irrelevant.


Which treaties have we violated, and against which nation(s)?

By my count 2 and maybe a 3rd of the Geneva Conventions. Based on how legalistic you want to be there are also a couple of the UN conventions which have been violated.



slaveboyforyou -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 7:11:38 AM)

quote:

So hot is the speculation that war-crimes trials will eventually follow in foreign or international courts that Lawrence Wilkerson, Colin Powell’s former chief of staff, has publicly advised Mr. Feith, Mr. Addington and Alberto Gonzales, among others, to “never travel outside the U.S., except perhaps to Saudi Arabia and Israel.”


Horse manure.  NOTHING is going to happen.  No international war crimes tribunals against American officials, no arrests of Bush administration officials traveling abroad.  Only a complete fool would believe this is a possibility.  It's not going to happen now, tomorrow, or ten years from now. 

I get a little tired of hearing about all this torture Americans are engaged in.  If you believed all the hype from the naysayers, you'd think we had terror suspects stretching on racks or having bamboo shoved under their finger nails.  Waterboarding for fuck's sake?  Naked Iraqi pyramids?  Female guards saying sexually suggestive things to prisoners?  Give me a fucking break, man.  We aren't torturing people. 



meatcleaver -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 7:26:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

So hot is the speculation that war-crimes trials will eventually follow in foreign or international courts that Lawrence Wilkerson, Colin Powell’s former chief of staff, has publicly advised Mr. Feith, Mr. Addington and Alberto Gonzales, among others, to “never travel outside the U.S., except perhaps to Saudi Arabia and Israel.”


Horse manure.  NOTHING is going to happen.  No international war crimes tribunals against American officials, no arrests of Bush administration officials traveling abroad.  Only a complete fool would believe this is a possibility.  It's not going to happen now, tomorrow, or ten years from now. 

I get a little tired of hearing about all this torture Americans are engaged in.  If you believed all the hype from the naysayers, you'd think we had terror suspects stretching on racks or having bamboo shoved under their finger nails.  Waterboarding for fuck's sake?  Naked Iraqi pyramids?  Female guards saying sexually suggestive things to prisoners?  Give me a fucking break, man.  We aren't torturing people. 


It's widely eaccepted that the US is kidnapping and torturing people and innocent people at that. Both Italy and Germany have warrants out for the the arrest of between 12 and 19 CIA agents for kidnapping people on their soil for the reason of interogation and torture. Of course, the two governments are embarrassed but the legal system is independent of the government so the governments can't do anything.

However, what is more important than whether American government politicians can be arrested is a moot point since we all know it won't happen. What it does do is confirm to the world the American regime is hypocritical and self serving when Bush says the US is fighting for civilized values and the rule of law. Bush and America are obviously not fighting for civilized values and the rule of law because the USA refuses be a part of most efforts to create an international justice system and those treaties it has signed up to, the Geneva Convention and the UN Charter, it breaks frequently. The point is, that this behaviour denies the US of the moral high ground but worse, it makes the US a terrorist state and no better than those countries the US condemns for terrorist acts.  Of course, just about everyone in the world but America itself, recognizes this and gives a loud guffaw when American politicians get on their sanctimonious high horse and lectures the rest of the world about civilized values.



Termyn8or -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 8:25:30 AM)

"Let us, however, in our plans, direct our attention not so much to what is good and moral as to what is necessary and useful. "

From a forgery. It means nothing. But then...........

T



philosophy -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 8:59:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

If the alleged human rights abuses were offending other nations, wouldn't we have already seen at least some sort of resolution in the U.N.? 


...to be fair, that scenario wont happen while the US has a veto in the security council. Same thing applies to sanctions against Russia for atrocities in Chechyna (sp?) and China for being, well, China.
The reality of world-politik as things stand is that some countries are, broadly, immune to sanction by the UN. Arguably a good reason for an independent world court that can take action without recourse to getting the ok from foreign ministers......



slaveboyforyou -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 11:23:00 AM)

quote:

It's widely eaccepted that the US is kidnapping and torturing people and innocent people at that.


It's widely believed that we are torturing people.  I don't consider waterboarding to be torture, and I don't consider sleep deprivation to be torture. 

quote:

Both Italy and Germany have warrants out for the the arrest of between 12 and 19 CIA agents for kidnapping people on their soil for the reason of interogation and torture.  


So what?  Let them enforce it.  It's nothing but political grand standing for the benefit of trying to appear outraged.  I doubt very seriously that the powers behind the scenes are very upset about having some of these assholes taken off their hands. 

quote:

Bush and America are obviously not fighting for civilized values and the rule of law because the USA refuses be a part of most efforts to create an international justice system 


You're damn right the majority of people in this country are not going to allow it's citizens to be tried before "international courts."  We have our own system of justice, and we fought a war to have our Republic.  Yes Bush makes a lot of speeches about the reasons for our actions overseas.  Yes, almost all of what he says is pure bullshit.  But it doesn't change the fact that we have a right to defend ourselves from crazy religious fanatics.  You can't win unconventional wars by following rules and being the nice guy.  It doesn't work that way, and it never has.  I'm sorry if it bothers the idealists of the world.  But realism generally wins out. 

quote:

The point is, that this behaviour denies the US of the moral high ground but worse, it makes the US a terrorist state and no better than those countries the US condemns for terrorist acts.  Of course, just about everyone in the world but America itself, recognizes this and gives a loud guffaw when American politicians get on their sanctimonious high horse and lectures the rest of the world about civilized values. 


I think we have the moral high ground in comparison to cultures that deny women human rights, that penalize homosexuality with the death penalty, and that stifle basic rights like freedom of speech and belief.  As for politicians acting sanctimonious....I can't think of a politician in any nation throughout history that hasn't done that.  Of course we lecture the rest of the world.  We're not the first to do it.  We just took up the torch of the "white man's burden"  after the Second World War.  I don't know why you are surprised and outraged by that.  It's the way it is, and the way it's always been. 



PanthersMom -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 11:37:59 AM)

criminals in the white house?  oh say it isn't so!  there have been criminals in the white house since day one, have you ever known an honest politician?  you all act like this is news or a shock, where the hell have you all been?  you think this dirty politics stuff is new?  go back in human history, it's a constant theme in the ruling parties in history!
PM 



servantforuse -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 11:41:48 AM)

Another wonderful article from the very biased and very liberal New York Times. This paper is in very bad financial shape because no one buys it anymore... 



DomKen -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 12:27:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

It's widely eaccepted that the US is kidnapping and torturing people and innocent people at that.


It's widely believed that we are torturing people.  I don't consider waterboarding to be torture, and I don't consider sleep deprivation to be torture. 

Are you willing to be water boarded? Did you miss the fact that everyone who has experienced it does view it as torture?
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808



slaveboyforyou -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 12:41:01 PM)

Sure I'd try it to get a perspective on it, especially if it was a really gorgeous woman doing it.  [:D]  (Remember where we are)  I realize it's not pleasant, but I still don't rank it up there with thumbscrews, electric shock, cutting, etc.  Hitchens made that point himself in the article you cited. 

I am not going to take the other extreme and say that we should extend rights to foreign nationals suspected of plotting terrorist attacks. 



Thadius -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 1:59:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


Which treaties have we violated, and against which nation(s)?

By my count 2 and maybe a 3rd of the Geneva Conventions. Based on how legalistic you want to be there are also a couple of the UN conventions which have been violated.


Let's see what the ICRC says about that...
quote:

Terrorist acts may occur during armed
conflicts or in time of peace. As international
humanitarian law applies only in situations
of armed conflict, it does not regulate
terrorist acts committed in peacetime.

 
quote:

In addition to an express
prohibition of all acts aimed at spreading
terror among the civilian population (Art. 51,
para. 2, Protocol I; and Art. 13, para. 2,
Protocol II), IHL also proscribes the following
acts, which could be considered as terrorist
attacks:
• attacks on civilians and civilian objects
(Arts. 51, para. 2, and 52, Protocol I;
and Art. 13, Protocol II);
• indiscriminate attacks (Art. 51, para. 4,
Protocol I);
• attacks on places of worship (Art. 53,
Protocol I; and Art. 16, Protocol II);
• attacks on works and installations
containing dangerous forces (Art. 56,
Protocol I; and Art. 15, Protocol II);
• the taking of hostages (Art. 75, Protocol I;
Art. 3 common to the four Conventions;
and Art. 4, para. 2b, Protocol II);
• murder of persons not or no longer taking
part in hostilities (Art. 75, Protocol I; Art. 3
common to the four Conventions; and Art. 4,
para. 2a, Protocol II).

 
quote:

Apart from prohibiting the above acts,
humanitarian law contains stipulations to
repress violations of these prohibitions and
mechanisms for implementing these
obligations, which are much more
developed than any obligation that currently
exists under international conventions for
the prevention and punishment of terrorism.

 
Oh and to just touch on your description of the Geneva Convention...
 
quote:


GC 1 Art. 50.
Grave breaches to which the preceding Article relates shall be those involving any of the following acts, if committed against persons or property protected by the Convention: wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, and extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly.

I highlighted for emphasis a couple of important "caveats".  Those same caveats are in almost every article of the GC (both ratifications).  As you can see for charges to even be considered, the alleged victim must be protected under the Convention, AND, the act must not be justified by military necessity, AND, carried out unlawfully, AND, wantonly.


This is the info that ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross) provides.  They are argueably the most diligent organization in seeing that humanitarian law and human rights laws are followed, updated, and knowledge of those laws is spread to everybody. For more information you can visit their site at http://www.icrc.org .  That is where the snips above can be found as well.

Edited: to fix link and spelling of caveat (originally had an extra e)



slvemike4u -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 2:18:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Horse manure.  NOTHING is going to happen.  No international war crimes tribunals against American officials, no arrests of Bush administration officials traveling abroad.  Only a complete fool would believe this is a possibility.  It's not going to happen now, tomorrow, or ten years from now. 

I get a little tired of hearing about all this torture Americans are engaged in.  If you believed all the hype from the naysayers, you'd think we had terror suspects stretching on racks or having bamboo shoved under their finger nails.  Waterboarding for fuck's sake?  Naked Iraqi pyramids?  Female guards saying sexually suggestive things to prisoners?  Give me a fucking break, man.  We aren't torturing people. 

____________________________________________________________________
   So what their running down there ,is realy a Cuban Hospitality Spa....got it....



DomAviator -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 2:29:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Are you willing to be water boarded? Did you miss the fact that everyone who has experienced it does view it as torture?
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808


As I have said previously every time this dead horse gets beaten - I HAVE BEEN waterboarded in SERE. I didnt consider it "torture", it was admittedly unpleasant but many things in life are. The article was written by a 59 year old journalist. A rather delicate fellow who makes his living writing not fighting. He is a candy assed reporter on the verge of social security not a trained warrior.

As the article says - it is done in SERE. If it is good enough for every pilot or aircrew member in the US military, every special forces operator of every branch, every intellegence officer, etc then it is perfectly alright for some fucking terrorists. SERE is very widespread. Every branch has a program, the Navy actually runs TWO SERE schools to meet the demand.

I am absolutely incredulous that people have a problem with us doing something to a bunch of terrorists, that is perfectly OK to do to our own military officers. Waterboarding is the least of what happens at SERE. Its too bad the curriculum is classified because if only the liberals knew waterboarding would become a non-issue. [:D] Lets just say waterboarding wasnt what put me in the hospital, and I didnt need rabies shots because of it....

By the way - we didnt invent it the SERE curriculum is written by our enemies. It is based upon things THEY ALREADY DID TO US. It trains you to handle what WILL be done to you when captured. So, once our enemies start providing POW's with satin sheets, scented candles, roses, and chocolate mints we will adapt our program... Until then - its do unto others what they do unto you...



stef -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 3:48:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

As I have said previously every time this dead horse gets beaten - I HAVE BEEN waterboarded in SERE. I didnt consider it "torture", it was admittedly unpleasant but many things in life are. The article was written by a 59 year old journalist. A rather delicate fellow who makes his living writing not fighting. He is a candy assed reporter on the verge of social security not a trained warrior.

What about Kaj Larsen?  I think a former Navy SEAL would qualify as a trained warrior, wouldn't you?  I can't help but believe his opinion on the matter over that of some faceless, bombastic internet warrior, no matter how much he blusters and rants.

His post-waterboarding interview starts at 7:32 in the following video.   

http://current.com/pods/controversy/PD04342

Both you and he had the luxury of knowing that your "interrogators" were not going to kill you.  Even knowing this, he said that he felt he was going to die.  How would true prisoners in a nameless prison in an undisclosed location woudld feel knowing that there would be no repercussion if they were killed during "coersive interrogation?"  I'm sorry, but anyone who claims that isn't torture is living in denial.

~stef



Thadius -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 4:11:57 PM)

I guess we should just hand all of those that we wish to be "interviewed" over to the Egyptians or Mossad.  I am sure that will make folks feel much better about the treatment of alleged terrorists and non-uniformed combatants.

I hope they film some to make sure people get the full implications of that sort of policy change.



DomAviator -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/14/2008 4:14:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef


What about Kaj Larsen?  I think a former Navy SEAL would qualify as a trained warrior, wouldn't you?  I can't help but believe his opinion on the matter over that of some faceless, bombastic internet warrior, no matter how much he blusters and rants.

His post-waterboarding interview starts at 7:32 in the following video.   

http://current.com/pods/controversy/PD04342

Both you and he had the luxury of knowing that your "interrogators" were not going to kill you.  Even knowing this, he said that he felt he was going to die.  How would true prisoners in a nameless prison in an undisclosed location woudld feel knowing that there would be no repercussion if they were killed during "coersive interrogation?"  I'm sorry, but anyone who claims that isn't torture is living in denial.

~stef



Well stef, the video is a pretty accurate depiction and that proves my point ... If you notice the producer stopped it after 24 minutes. Compare it to the candy assed reporter look how long he lasted :

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/video/2008/hitchens_video200808 

What I saw in the post waterboarding interview of Kaj was a man laughing and saying "that sucked"...Notice him laughing about it when he says "I thought I was gonna die too".  Hes saying "thats horrible every time you go through it" well thats what a lot of people say about root canal or PAP smears too...

It is admittedly "unpleasant" but as I said many things in life are... Incidentally without going into it to the point of releasing classified information SERE participants DO NOT have the "luxury of knowing your interrogators are not going to kill you". There is a major mind fuck that goes along with it so that you are NOT able to just say "Oh well its only training and it ends Sunday" The military isnt stupid, they have created an absolutely masterful illusion, complete to the tiniest detail, to get around that...



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