RE: Criminals in the White House

RE: Criminals in the White House (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/15/2008 1:00:00 AM)
Slaveboy my point remains we are better than that.We can deal with them without compromising our values.To reply specifically to some of your points let me ask you this,don't you think we could have put more effort into seperating the wheat from the chaff,or did we not have a responsibility before heading down this road.Why throw out our values in an effort to protect those values .We have the best minds the best hardware why do we employ bankrupt methods.We are better than this...and on a personal note I am Irish and holding up british behavior in regards to the Irish is not likely to sway me

Politesub53 -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/15/2008 2:49:22 AM)
The British used what were called the five techniques. Noise, such as standing people near large machinery for long periods, sleep deprivation, stress positions, food and drink deprivation and sensory deprivation. Here is what the European Court of Human Rights said on the subject in 1978. "In 1978 the European Court of Human Rights said that the techniques Britain had used caused “intense physical and mental suffering and … acute psychiatric disturbance”, but that while this was “inhuman and degrading treatment” it didn’t amount to torture. "

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/15/2008 4:04:28 AM)
quote: "In 1978 the European Court of Human Rights said that the techniques Britain had used caused “intense physical and mental suffering and … acute psychiatric disturbance”, but that while this was “inhuman and degrading treatment” it didn’t amount to torture. " Ah the ECHR says so, so that's that. [8\|] I seem to recall reading about several incidents of direct violence during interrogations. Beatings, threats of violence , and threats of violence toward or arrest of loved ones, etc.

meatcleaver -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/15/2008 5:02:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The point is, that this behaviour denies the US of the moral high ground but worse, it makes the US a terrorist state and no better than those countries the US condemns for terrorist acts. Of course, just about everyone in the world but America itself, recognizes this and gives a loud guffaw when American politicians get on their sanctimonious high horse and lectures the rest of the world about civilized values. I think we have the moral high ground in comparison to cultures that deny women human rights, that penalize homosexuality with the death penalty, and that stifle basic rights like freedom of speech and belief. As for politicians acting sanctimonious....I can't think of a politician in any nation throughout history that hasn't done that. Of course we lecture the rest of the world. We're not the first to do it. We just took up the torch of the "white man's burden" after the Second World War. I don't know why you are surprised and outraged by that. It's the way it is, and the way it's always been. You do stifle basic rights like freedom of speach and belief, you just don't subject your own people to that but you do subject people to such in countries where you want their resources or for projecting US power. No, the US is not the only western country to do that, it has inherited the imperial ways of the Western Europeans. That doesn't makle it right and it doesn't make the US not a terrorist state and I'm using the same criteria the US uses in defining a terrorist state. Avoiding looking in the mirror helps ones sense of moral superiority but it doesn't give one moral superiority. quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Both Italy and Germany have warrants out for the the arrest of between 12 and 19 CIA agents for kidnapping people on their soil for the reason of interogation and torture. So what? Let them enforce it. It's nothing but political grand standing for the benefit of trying to appear outraged. I doubt very seriously that the powers behind the scenes are very upset about having some of these assholes taken off their hands. Nothing to do with political grandstanding, its to do with protecting the rights of innocent individuals, I don't know about the US but kidnapping and torture are still illegal here and people are still innocent until proved guilty.

Politesub53 -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/15/2008 5:22:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: "In 1978 the European Court of Human Rights said that the techniques Britain had used caused “intense physical and mental suffering and … acute psychiatric disturbance”, but that while this was “inhuman and degrading treatment” it didn’t amount to torture. " Ah the ECHR says so, so that's that. [8\|] I seem to recall reading about several incidents of direct violence during interrogations. Beatings, threats of violence , and threats of violence toward or arrest of loved ones, etc. Threats of violence ? You were just making a case for waterboarding, not threats of it. I wont even go into IRA techniques, but can if you wish. "Dealing with fanatics" yada yada yada ( Your own words ) Lets try and be consistent eh [8\|]

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/15/2008 5:27:00 AM)
quote: Threats of violence ? You were just making a case for waterboarding, not threats of it. I wont even go into IRA techniques, but can if you wish. "Dealing with fanatics" yada yada yada ( Your own words ) Lets try and be consistent eh [8\|] I didn't say I had a problem with the techniques. I am not a fan of the IRA just so you know. I think they are a bunch of thugs, and I also think the same thing about Ulster nationalists. I was just pointing out that the U.S. is not alone in using aggressive techniques to gather information from prisoners.

Politesub53 -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/15/2008 5:42:11 AM)
Agreed, on all points, and i just pointed out that an International Court declared British interrogation techniques were unpleasant but not torture.

philosophy -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/15/2008 9:03:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius You would be surprised what sleep deprivation, lack of food, cold and or heat (depending on time of year) can make your mind believe is real. ...i wouldn't be surprised at all. Indeed, anyone who has read around the subject would be equally unsurprised. It is, in fact, part of why i think that these kind of techniques are a bad idea in this situation. 9/11 happened because a lot of seperate situations gelled to allow it to do so. One of those seperate things was intelligence. Intelligence was either not seen as sufficiently important by some or failed to be reliable enough for further action. The information gained from 'torture' techniques isn't reliable enough either. All we end up doing by engaging in such practices is deny outselves the ability to occupy the moral high ground (an advantage with enormous propaganda value).....and we give that advantage up for intelligence no more reliable than that which got us into this mess in the first place. Leave aside all human rights considerations for the time being, these kind of interrogation techniques just aren't practical. (edited for being typed before first coffee of day)

slvemike4u -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/15/2008 9:37:31 AM)
Once again Philo proves his intelligence by the simple act of agreeing with me!!!! Seriously what do you get when you use these techniques,the subject tells you just what he believes you want to hear based on your questions..There are better methods and they have the virtue of reliability.Not to mention we do not debase ourselves as a nation by betraying all our stated beleifs...

Alumbrado -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/15/2008 9:05:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius You would be surprised what sleep deprivation, lack of food, cold and or heat (depending on time of year) can make your mind believe is real. Leave aside all human rights considerations for the time being, these kind of interrogation techniques just aren't practical. And that is very old news indeed. It didn't work in Korea... quote: Turns out an entire interrogation class at Guantanamo was based on a chart copied from a 1957 Air Force study of Chinese Communist techniques used during the Korean War to obtain confessions, many false, from American prisoners. http://rangeragainstwar.blogspot.com/2008/07/fear-up-harsh_15.html

MisterBeast -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/16/2008 11:27:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: MisterBeast yawns I am so not caring any more, I am so sick of hearing people bitch about this. Time for people to get a new hobby. So we should get a new hobby,replace being informed and caring with what ?...stock car racing? No I was refering to the current droning of the Blame America and/or Bush first crowd. I am getting really damn tired of Liberal Democrats trying to make everything Republicans fault just like how Adolph Hitler made everything all about the Jew's. Its the same mentality, and mentality based on hate, not ideas, with no way forward that doesnt involve blaming a republican for all of your woes, and punishing anyone who is sucsessful by taxing thier ass off. So yes, if people like that want to get uninvolved in polatics and take up a hobby, like said stock car racing, it would nothing but make the world a better place.

DomKen -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/16/2008 11:38:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MisterBeast I am getting really damn tired of Liberal Democrats trying to make everything Republicans fault just like how Adolph Hitler made everything all about the Jew's. And yet another person person invokes Godwin. BTW do you also decry Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Dick Cheney, Tom DeLay, Pat Robertson and all of FoxNews when they try and make everything the Democrats fault? Your posting history doesn't seem to show that.

slvemike4u -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/16/2008 11:41:44 AM)
Misterbeast trying to link bi-partisan carping ,even at it's current levels, with Nazi anti-jewish propaganda is in really poor taste considering where that propaganda led to....The Nazi 's usualy make for poor analogy's ,what with them being all consumate evil and everything....just saying..

MisterBeast -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/16/2008 11:58:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: MisterBeast I am getting really damn tired of Liberal Democrats trying to make everything Republicans fault just like how Adolph Hitler made everything all about the Jew's. And yet another person person invokes Godwin. BTW do you also decry Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Dick Cheney, Tom DeLay, Pat Robertson and all of FoxNews when they try and make everything the Democrats fault? Your posting history doesn't seem to show that. Well lets roll with it shall we? Quotes on gun control from The fore fathers of the United States of America. No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson "And that said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress...to prevent the people of the Unites States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..." - Sam Adams "Americans need never fear their government because of the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation." - James Madison A Quote from Adolph Hitler. "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so." - Adolf Hitler Now for some Democrats - "If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an out-right ban, picking up every one of them... 'Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in,' I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren't here." - Senator Dianne Feinstein "We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans to legitimately own handguns and rifles...that we are unable to think about reality." - President William J. Clinton "We must get rid of all the guns." - Sarah Brady "Banning guns is an idea whose time has come." - U.S. Sen. Joseph Biden So you mister smart guy, tell me the differeince. Cause from what I have there, its auful hard to see a difference in the Ideology there. If you like too, I have plenty more where that came from.

DomKen -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/16/2008 12:07:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MisterBeast quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: MisterBeast I am getting really damn tired of Liberal Democrats trying to make everything Republicans fault just like how Adolph Hitler made everything all about the Jew's. And yet another person person invokes Godwin. BTW do you also decry Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Dick Cheney, Tom DeLay, Pat Robertson and all of FoxNews when they try and make everything the Democrats fault? Your posting history doesn't seem to show that. Well lets roll with it shall we? <snip non sequitur> Changing the subject is not an answer. When precisely do you denounce the afore named individuals for blaming the Democrats for everything?

philosophy -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/16/2008 12:18:28 PM)
FR ...your analogy only makes sense if, like Hitler, the Democrats were only trying to ban certain people having guns. Instead, what you have presented is a text book example of the yah-yew-sux school of political rhetoric. Democrats aren't Nazis, neither are Republicans. Nazis are Nazis.

Thadius -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/16/2008 12:21:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: MisterBeast I am getting really damn tired of Liberal Democrats trying to make everything Republicans fault just like how Adolph Hitler made everything all about the Jew's. And yet another person person invokes Godwin. BTW do you also decry Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Dick Cheney, Tom DeLay, Pat Robertson and all of FoxNews when they try and make everything the Democrats fault? Your posting history doesn't seem to show that. I know this one wasn't aimed at me but I just couldn't resist... I do call em as I see em... read the satire thread. So all of FoxNews is against the Democrats? I am sure Bob Beckel and Alan Colmes fit that bill to a tee. Basicly, I am saying making boogieman generalizations does not make it so. I could also point out that the Huffington post and NY Times op-eds are not reliable sources of "news and facts", but that is probably me being all partisan again. Care to comment on the likes of Moveon.org or Code-pink? [;)]

slvemike4u -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/16/2008 12:23:28 PM)
Again with the comparitive examples.This time you throw in a little Adolph Hitler, arguably the most despised man of the late 20'century with some Democratic voices...way to keep it real...is this what You refer to as "fair and balanced"...when one has no real point a little cheap theatrics works quite well ,does it not!

philosophy -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/16/2008 12:30:14 PM)
FR ...seems to me that there all the news outlets mentioned so far have credibility problems. i doubt there's a truly independent news outlet on the planet. The nearest i have to come to that in my own experience is the BBC. Two reasons for that, one it's not beholden to any commercial agenda. Secondly, it operates in an environment that includes the British press, as rabid a pack as have ever existed on the planet, often owned by people antagonistic to the way the BBC is funded. When the BBC makes a mistake the press are all over them like white on rice. Such an environment makes for good fact checking.

MisterBeast -> RE: Criminals in the White House (7/16/2008 12:31:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Again with the comparitive examples.This time you throw in a little Adolph Hitler, arguably the most despised man of the late 20'century with some Democratic voices...way to keep it real...is this what You refer to as "fair and balanced"...when one has no real point a little cheap theatrics works quite well ,does it not! So then explain to me then how they are really the champions of freedom and liberty and the American way of life, and not a bunch of people who are after similar goal of instituting thier ideology and forcing it on the rest of us? The reason I referenced what I did is the 2nd ammendment is there to protect the first. With out the right to keep and bear arms the right of free speech and freedom of the press can not be sustained. Dont belive me, try telling some one with a gun to shut up some time. Or as Lennin put it: "One man with a gun can control 100 without one."

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