Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Satire at it's Finest


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Satire at it's Finest Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 12:18:07 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


This is getting beyond ridiculous. Let's recap.

Alumbrado, you certainly did not check those references.


Since the posted link to my reference is still intact, and it still shows the definitive standard for the meaning of 'satire', and since you are still running away from backing up any assertion that the people who published that dictionary are wrong, your claim is completely at odds with reality. Same for your claim that your cut and paste job disagrees with me in any way.

And with that as a nonsensical basis, nothing you post is ever going to lead to a sensible conclusion.





quote:


However, you or anyone else can do so easily and quickly by going to http://www.answers.com and entering "satire." There, unlike searching for keywords in Google, you will find the labelled entries I mentioned and more. It's called research.

If you like, I'll paste the entry from the Oxford English Dictionary, considered the ultimate authority, but I doubt it would make any difference here.

First, folks, you accuse me of inventing definitions. Then, when I present authoritative ones--ones some of you are too lazy to read--you call into question of validity of definitions generally, as evolving. In other words, YOU folks feel you can define a word anyway you wish. Apparently, for you, "it depends on what the meaning of 'is' is."


That's called projection... it perfectly describes your actions here.. you still deny the dictionary definition I posted, and the more you cut and paste, the more you are proven wrong in your claim that it isn't satire unless you get it. None of your  links support that bogus notion, so once again, everything you try to build on the quicksand of ignoring the dictionary definition I posted, and claiming that what you posted says the opposite of what it clearly says, will ever lead to any logical conclusion.


quote:


OK, we've by now passed Heretic's attention span, but for anyone who seriously wants to address the issue the OP presented, here's a summary.

The cover was presented as "satire at its finest." A bunch of cheerleaders jumped on the bandwagon. Once the definition of "satire" was clarified, they questioned the definition itself. Once that was supported, they questioned the validity of definition itself. And unable to make (let alone support) any counterargument, naysayers fell back on ridiculing their challenger on completely unrelated issues (whether I'm pendantic or humorless--claims silly to anyone who's read the rest of my posts--just isn't the point (it's a red herring).

The problem is that you made a sweeping, unsupported claim, and when called on it, didn't like it. Welcome to reality.


I posted the dictionary definition of satire, which is what started your frenetic attacks on reality... that isn't a sweeping unsupported claim, it is simply, the dictionary definition.  What would be a sweeping unsupported claim would be your assertion that nothing can be 'twue' satire unless you find it so.

So, again, projection on your part...textbook example.


quote:


Now, the OP could have simply stated, "I find the cover amusing." Fine. No problem. That's a matter of personal opinion. It's also no more important an observation than whether he likes Coke or Pepsi, but fair enough.

Or, as is implied, the OP meant, "I love anything that attacks Obama," well, narrow-minded, but still a matter of personal opinion, and again, fair enough--with the understanding that others are free to post their dissenting views on the matter.


Errrrmmmm... not to put too fine a point on it, but the cover ridiculed people who actually believed, even for a second, that Obama was any of those things depeicted...thanks for making it clear why it offended you so. And why you dismiss Johnathan Swift's definition of satire as a mirror for people like you.


quote:


Convenient though it is, "I'm just right and everyone else is just wrong" isn't argument. It may be popular on some talk shows dependent on the ignorance of their audience or the willingness of that audience to simply serve as cheerleaders, but it's not argument, and is easily challenged.

As it was here. You don't have to like it--but that won't change a thing.

Here endeth the lesson.


Again, projecting your logical fallacies onto reality isn't a lesson, because the only person who could benefit from it, namely yourself, is clearly not paying attention.

At this point I'll leave you to combat your phantasma.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 12:29:51 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     Ok, the Obama campaign is not amused by the cover of The New Yorker.  They'll get over it.  Personally, I think pulling all the elements of the rumor mill together like this is pretty funny.


    What???  You got a problem with a free press?



'Standard fayre from my position. It's neither subtle nor enlightening, and certainly a million miles away from "satire at its finest".

Rich, I get the impression you're left in the dark as to the object of ridicule.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 12:36:28 PM   
genevieve66


Posts: 57
Joined: 7/8/2008
Status: offline 		Well put Northern Gent. It appears that the object of derision here is not the Obamas but the jingoistic flag waving fervid neo-cons. Just saying.... I think they missed that part tho.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 12:40:12 PM   
Aynne


Posts: 740
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline 		Oh they missed it all right. Woosh. It was painfully apparent that from day one the fundies thought it was a slam at Obama. Ummm not quite. This one clearly attacks the simpleton mentality of the bubbas that perpetuate the bullshit that Obama is a muslim, or Obama got sworn in on the Koran, or Obama eats babies for breakfast. You know, all of those things that are internet fodder for the red white and blue brigade. Right.Over.Their. Heads.  

_____________________________

*Yes I know I have no profile at this time...

I looked in your eyes
Without saying a word
I told you what I am
And I hoped that you heard

~Owned and Loved by Master Sifu~

*founder of I Love Lushy Inc.*

(in reply to genevieve66)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 12:49:05 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

the bullshit that Obama is a muslim, or Obama got sworn in on the Koran, or Obama eats babies for breakfast.

I've only seen that particular bit of BS coming from one direction, and it hasn't been from anyone remotely "right wing".

I am sure the purportedly illuminated individual knows of whom I speak.


_____________________________



(in reply to Aynne)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 12:59:49 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Rich, I get the impression you're left in the dark as to the object of ridicule.



          Not at all, North.  I'm having my fun with how many different objects this cartoon, and the response it has spawned, have managed to hold up for ridicule.    

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 1:09:55 PM   
Aynne


Posts: 740
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline 		You haven't CP? Jesus it is everywhere, the moral outrage from the right wing is laughable, the party of Larry Craig et al pissed that Obama won't wear a flag pin, a cheap trinket sold in WalMaArt and made in third world countries. So very gop. However, do you or do you not "get" the cover? Do you realize it is not anything other than poking a stick at the fundies and the neo-cons, or do you, like so many of your compadres, think it is a swipe at Obama? It is not.   

< Message edited by Aynne -- 7/19/2008 1:12:10 PM >

_____________________________

*Yes I know I have no profile at this time...

I looked in your eyes
Without saying a word
I told you what I am
And I hoped that you heard

~Owned and Loved by Master Sifu~

*founder of I Love Lushy Inc.*

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 1:14:14 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

However, do you or do you not "get" the cover? Do you realize it is not anything other than poking stick at the fundies and the neo-cons, or do you, like so many of your compadres, think it is a swipe at Obama? It is not.

I think it is exactly what it is--an attention-getting cover that encourages the magazine to actually leave the rack and generate sales.

It has no correlation to the underlying article (which is a worthwhile read).   It is marketing schtick, pure and simple.

Highly effective schtick, based on the response it has generated.

(Remember, in the advertising world there is no such thing as bad publicity)


_____________________________



(in reply to Aynne)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 1:23:40 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

A couple of quick thoughts on this.

It is truly a shame that the article linked to the cover had nothing to do with the cover.  This was nothing more than a shameless publicity stunt.

Finally, a recent poll showed that 12% actually believe that Obama is Muslim, which is significantly higher than the approval ratings of Congress.... Kind of scary when you think about it.


My ex and I actually had words over this, he genuinely believes that Obama is a practicing Muslim and this indeed somehow cemented the 'facts' in his head.

Even before he and I discussed the cover I knew the reaction it would cause in a certain type of mind. Hopefully there are not a lot of minds like my ex....

"You can't go into his head, there is no way you can prove he isn't a Muslim. You can't really know the truth no matter what people say about him"

(This is just one of the many reasons he is an ex, by the time I got home from the airport all the happy feelings from my Austin trip had been taken over by the need to strangle some sense into my driver arghhhhhhhh)


_____________________________


~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).




(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 1:26:40 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

any serious debate with you is pointless...




         If your idea of "leaving the last word" is throw out a personally nasty strawman, and flee the room when called on it, I think we've found a point of agreement above, Musi.  Of course, it is a long time before the election, perhaps we'll find occasion to change our initial impressions.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 2:43:57 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Since the posted link to my reference is still intact, and it still shows the definitive standard for the meaning of 'satire', and since you are still running away from backing up any assertion that the people who published that dictionary are wrong, your claim is completely at odds with reality


Alumbrado,

Apparently, making a point once is not enough for you. You feel the American Heritage Dictionary, the Houghton Mifflin Co. Dictionary, the Oxford University Press, the Encyclopedia Brittanica, and the Columbia University Press, from whom I quoted those pieces on satire, are all in error.

Goodie for you. When does your "definitive" dictionary come out?

The actual definite source is the English Oxford Dictionary. Ask anyone who knows what they're talking about. And the single entries for both noun and verb forms of the word would exceed what I posted earlier.

Sorry reality disagrees with you.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/19/2008 2:55:46 PM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 2:46:29 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

any serious debate with you is pointless...




         If your idea of "leaving the last word" is throw out a personally nasty strawman, and flee the room when called on it, I think we've found a point of agreement above, Musi.  Of course, it is a long time before the election, perhaps we'll find occasion to change our initial impressions.


Good grief.

If you feel that's "personally nasty strawman," and in the light of what you've posted, and that your posts rise above this, then hell, just enjoy yourself, man. [And incidentally, that's not strawman, as it's directed to you, and not to your surrogate--I thought someone as concerned about logic as you would want to know]

In fact, I repeat the point quoted.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/19/2008 3:07:24 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 3:29:56 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		       So, what did you mean then, by "the OP meant, 'I love anything that attacks Obaba?'"  Seems pretty straightforward from the pixels in front of me.  Not quite an accusation of KKK membership, certainly a wholly inaccurate restatement of my words, with a nasty implied slur upon my intelligence and character, stated as a fact.

     And you typed these words right after suggesting that others on the thread needed to familiarize ourselves with the rest of your posts (and your personal blog as well, it now seems), before we shall be deemed competent to reply.

     Whatever.  You fun with that too. 


    

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 5:58:17 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Since the posted link to my reference is still intact, and it still shows the definitive standard for the meaning of 'satire', and since you are still running away from backing up any assertion that the people who published that dictionary are wrong, your claim is completely at odds with reality


Alumbrado,

Apparently, making a point once is not enough for you. You feel the American Heritage Dictionary, the Houghton Mifflin Co. Dictionary, the Oxford University Press, the Encyclopedia Brittanica, and the Columbia University Press, from whom I quoted those pieces on satire, are all in error.

Goodie for you. When does your "definitive" dictionary come out?

The actual definite source is the English Oxford Dictionary. Ask anyone who knows what they're talking about. And the single entries for both noun and verb forms of the word would exceed what I posted earlier.

Sorry reality disagrees with you.


Repeating your denials and  projection isn't going to change a thing.  Even the OED doesn't list you as the arbiter of satire, it assigns that (as I have said all along, and as your cut and pasted snippets support), to the intention of the creator of a satirical work. 
(And before you continue to dig a deeper hole, perhaps you should find out what etymology is.)

I posted the definitions in post #31, and you are still running away from proving that they are wrong.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 6:27:18 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Sigh

I've addressed your post already--you just ignored the point.

And etymology refers to the ORIGINS of a word, not its meaning.

The etymology of "satire," for example:

Latin satira, probably alteration (influenced by Greek satur, satyr, and saturos, burlesque of a mythical episode), of (lanx) satura, fruit (plate) mixture, from feminine of satur, sated, well-fitted

And you wonder why I think further discussion is pointless.


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 7:03:42 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		It is pointless because you are in denial about what has been posted...I posted the definitions which were contained along with the etymology. You just made up an incorrect definition from thin air, claiming that the definition of satire is whatever you decide it is. 

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 10:16:02 PM   
lilsubl


Posts: 4595
Joined: 2/6/2006
Status: offline 		is it too late to throw my towel on the side of this is most definitely satire, ridiculing the people who obtain their opinions of candidates from others...sort of like listening to a CB radio discussion of politics of any kind...they just keep repeating the same old crap without checking it out for themselves...i also agree that by worrying how some uninformed people will take something like this is all part of the systematic dumbing down of America, a policy that i find completely abhorrent!!  & let us also remember that TheHeretic simply titled this thread with a statement of opinion.......

_____________________________

Linea, collarded pet of the evil Sir Max & his lovely & equally evil wife


it's no fun unless you're scared

if you can't be brave, be determined & you'll get to the same place

wannabe member of the subbi mafia

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/19/2008 10:29:27 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		Satire? My takle on that cover is that it is an expose... Hard hitting investigative journalism put right on the front page... Yes what is depicted on the cover is to some minor degree exaggerated for emphasis - but these allegations did not come forth in a vacuum... There are questions about Obama that needs to be answered. There is video tape of him playing pocket pool during the natiional anthem, there is video of him refusing to wear a flag pin and calling it "that thing" rather than "the flag". Michelle Obama DID say she was "proud for the first time in her life to be an american". Obama and wife DID frequent a church run by a whacko militant black radical screaming God Damn America!.... There is nothing on that cover that was pulled from thin air- and there are a lot of questions about him that should be asked because of that cover. While illegal Id like to see a poster of it on the door of every voting booth in Texas as it causes one to ask what most are "too polite" to ask.

(in reply to lilsubl)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/20/2008 3:02:18 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

You just made up an incorrect definition from thin air, claiming that the definition of satire is whatever you decide it is. 
+

Alumbrado,

For the third time, I gave you exact quotes from the American Heritage Dictionary, the Houghton Mifflin Co. Dictionary, the Oxford University Press, the Encyclopedia Brittanica, and the Columbia University Press, which you continue to pretend are invented, even though I went so far is to instruct you how to find them.

Incidentally, you should also look up "definitive" -- it doesn't mean what you think it does. Nor does etymology, as you did not list it as claimed, and even had you, it's irrelevant. Nor did you give your source, as I did.

Your definition came from the dictionary.com site, though you cherry-picked only the part that served your preconceived notion. The portion you quoted comes from the "Online Etymology Dictiionary," but you gave only the brief, summary definition, excluding the etymology that follows:

"from L. satira "satire, poetic medley," earlier satura, in lanx satura "mixed dish, dish filled with various kinds of fruit," lit. "full dish," from fem. of satur "sated" (see saturate). First applied in literary sense to a collection of poems on a variety of subjects by Ennius. In classical L., a poem which assailed the prevailing vices, one after another. Altered in L. by infl. of Gk. satyr, on mistaken notion that the form is related to the Gk. satyr drama (see satyr)"

An etymology dictionary's purpose is not to define words, but to explore their origins. That's why this entry gives only a brief phrase, ignoring even that "satire" has multiple meanings, even needing two separate entries, one for the noun, one for the verb.

Further, you had to page down a third of the page, past other definitions that didn't suit you to lift that one line. Your Swift quote, btw (which comes from WordNet, a source you didn't name--and you lifted the example out of context without including the entry it illustrates), isn't even a definition, not even a "made-up" one---it's a metaphor, and it makes an ironic point, just as good satire does; mere summary and ridicule takes no skill and, as it has no observation to add, serves little purpose. The entry you excluded makes a simular point--stressing wit.

And finally, if you want to criticize how others use words, learn what they mean yourself. Perhaps a librarian can show you how to use the dictionary and what the various parts mean.

That's why discussing this with you is futile. Hope that helps clarify.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/20/2008 3:39:34 AM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Satire at it's Finest - 7/20/2008 10:34:34 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		P.S. I thought I'd better add this before I'm told I've "made-up" the definition of etymology (along with the etymology of the word), from the American Heritage Dictionary, dictionary.com--and the COMPLETE entry from the Online Etymology Dictionary (note this entry includes NO definition at all, just the derivation--as it is an etymology dictionary):

etymology
(ĕt'ə-mŏl'ə-jē)
n., pl. -gies.
1. The origin and historical development of a linguistic form as shown by determining its basic elements, earliest known use, and changes in form and meaning, tracing its transmission from one language to another, identifying its cognates in other languages, and reconstructing its ancestral form where possible.
2. The branch of linguistics that deals with etymologies.

[Middle English etimologie, from Old French ethimologie, from Medieval Latin ethimologia, from Latin etymologia, from Greek etumologiā : etumon, true sense of a word; see etymon + -logiā, -logy.]


et·y·mol·o·gy [et-uh-mol-uh-jee]
–noun, plural -gies.
1. the derivation of a word.
2. an account of the history of a particular word or element of a word.
3. the study of historical linguistic change, esp. as manifested in individual words.

[Origin: 1350–1400; ME < L etymologia < Gk etymología, equiv. to etymológ(os) studying the true meanings and values of words (étymo(s) true (see etymon) + lógos word, reason) + -ia -y3]


Online Etymology Dictionary -
etymology
1398, from Gk. etymologia, from etymon "true sense" (neut. of etymos "true," related to eteos "true") + logos "word." In classical times, of meanings; later, of histories. Latinized by Cicero as veriloquium.


And lest you now argue I'm "making-up" the definition of etymology dictionary:

WordNet:
etymological dictionary
The noun has one meaning:
Meaning #1: a dictionary giving the historical origins of each word


***AND FROM THE HOME PAGE OF THE ONLINE ETYMOLOGY DICTIONARY ITSELF:***

"This is a map of the wheel-ruts of modern English. Etymologies are not definitions; they're explanations of what our words meant and how they sounded 600 or 2,000 years ago.

"The dates beside a word indicate the earliest year for which there is a surviving written record of that word (in English, unless otherwise indicated). This should be taken as approximate, especially before about 1700, since a word may have been used in conversation for hundreds of years before it turns up in a manuscript that has had the good fortune to survive the centuries.

The basic sources of this work are Weekley's 'An Etymological Dictionary of Modern English,' Klein's 'A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the English Language,' 'Oxford English Dictionary' (second edition), 'Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology,' Holthauzen's 'Etymologisches Wörterbuch der Englischen Sprache,' Ayto's '20th Century Words,' and Chapman's 'Dictionary of American Slang.'"



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/20/2008 10:38:51 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 80
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Satire at it's Finest Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078