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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 8:23:22 AM   
LadyPact


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First off, I want to thank everyone who has participated in this thread.  There's a lot of diversity of opinion, and actually, some surprising similarities to some of My own thoughts.  I was glad to see well written and thought out replies from both perspectives.

One thing that came up that I didn't fully address came from blackrosegoddess.  In the goth culture, certain symbols have totally different meanings.  If I were in a goth setting, I would have to accept that those people have a different culture than My own.  They have a way of life that I should give common courtesy to, if not respect, much as I would hope others would give courtesy to Me. 

More than one person said this, but I believe it was aidan who spoke to it so well.  Yes, anyone can dress the way they like.  However, when they do, they might open themselves into other people's interpretation of doing so.  Some people might see things as one way, while others will see something different.  (btw, aidan, My regards to your Mistress.)

SurrenderforMe also brought something else.  How many of us would have wished to be the "fashion police" at one time or another?  Good heavens!  So many tacky outfits, so little time.  Sorry, but that made Me laugh.

HeavensKeeper did it best.  Yes, anyone, with two days time, might find any particular costume.  A task which is easy enough.  Put on the clothes and wear those bright, shinny things.  Yet, to a soldier, those little metals on the chest mean more than a decoration.  There is something behind that "combat badge".  A person might wear it, in frivolity, but they didn't earn it.

Last, but not least, is to Dari.  Yes, some of these discussions might be intimidating.  I am not Old Guard, nor do I wish to proclaim to be.  This world is open to you, in any way you chose to adapt it.  All a culture can ask is that you might want to understand, and have courtesy for certain ways.  Take what you need.  Leave the rest.




< Message edited by LadyPact -- 7/17/2008 8:28:19 AM >


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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 8:38:15 AM   
Sylverdawn


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I would like to see HeavenKeeper walk into a leather event in his Masters outfit and then wonder why he wasnt being accepted. Following the rules of the culture you are standing in is only good manners. So no I dont think that the leather community is dying nor do I think the fetish community or any other sub culture of the mainstream, rather the growth is slowing after an influx of interest. I think this is a good thing gives the community time to recoup and internalize the experience.

SD

< Message edited by Sylverdawn -- 7/17/2008 8:54:37 AM >


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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 9:03:19 AM   
undergroundsea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Not presented or earned, but the purchase and "wearing" of leathers  Like a fashion statenent.


I appreciate the tradition and code that exists in the leather culture. However, I do not identify with it and do indeed wear leather as part of fetish wear. In my opinion, it is more practical for leatherfolk to recognize not everyone adhers to their tradition, than for those who do not follow the tradition to not wear what they wish to wear.

I don't think the old school needs to be shut down. I think the leather culture brings admirable ideas to BDSM, and provides a haven for those who seek a dynamic and energy that is defined by the leather culture. I think the two schools can coexist. Leather when earned is valued not so much for the comfort of wearing leather but for the achievement and growth it represents. I think others wearing leather--whether earned or unearned--does little to diminish this achievement especially where it matters most.

quote:

Now, when you see someone wearing a collar, what do you think?  First impression, please.  Not the all inclusive answer

 
 
It depends on the context. At most lifestyle BDSM events, I assume a collar to mean one is owned or, at least, at the moment is in service to someone. A collar can also represent a fashion accessory, an accessory that helps a dominant or submissive enjoy the submissive symbolism or imagery presented by the collar (an unattached sub wearing a collar while playing at a party, the protocol dress code for all male subs, collared or not, at Club FEM parties), or a flag. I don't wear a collar at lifestyle events. My advice to an unattached sub would be to not wear a collar at a lifestyle event for sake of how it might confuse people but I would not be offended if one did. I do sometimes wear it when dressing up for an outting to a goth club or a fetish night where there are non-lifestyle folks there. There I wear it for fashion and, more so, for flagging.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 7/17/2008 9:06:04 AM >

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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 9:14:09 AM   
LadyPact


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And, there is the difference, My dear sea.  The thing is, no one asked anyone to be a part of it.  Only to recognize that certain cultures exist.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 9:21:39 AM   
opposingtwilight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

It's ok, dawn.  It's a discussion board.

When I see one wearing a collar, My first thought is that they are an owned submissive.



I am a submissive and I'm not currently owned but if I go to the goth club or places like that, I'll wear a little kitty collar with a bell attached. (Sometimes with ears, sometimes without.) I do see what you're saying, though.

Edited to add:

Sometimes I wear those things to other places too. Just out and about. But if I'm going to be around D/s people I didn't know, I would likely not wear a collar. If they knew me, they'd know the belled collared was just part of my kittiness but if they didn't know, they might assume I was owned or something.

Anyway ...

OMG! I'm indecent!


< Message edited by opposingtwilight -- 7/17/2008 9:24:11 AM >


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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 9:35:31 AM   
LadyPact


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Congratulations, twilight, on your "status".

For some reason, you, and Dari as well, have struck Me as folks just starting out.  Isn't it wonderful to have new eyes to see with and new ears to hear with?  I hope you will be here with us for a long time to come.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 10:40:31 AM   
Missokyst


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Ok.. got through 3 pages but I still haven't read how people "earn" their leathers.  I wear leather because it looks good.  I wear a collar only when playing and have never wanted to engage in a relationship with someone who thought that collars meant more than play.  I belong, when I belong and no symbol changes that.
But.. leathers.?  What is the criteria for earning the right to wear leather?
I dated a biker or two who wore leather jackets.  The need to wear them is evident if you have ever spilled your bike on hot asphalt.
So what is the defining activity for "earning leather"? 
I am truly curious.
Kyst

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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 11:00:07 AM   
undergroundsea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst
So what is the defining activity for "earning leather"? 
I am truly curious.


The concept of earning leathers comes from the leather culture, which finds its origins in gay clubs shortly after WWII. The clothing and fashion was inspired by a film of that time. Many of the patrons of these clubs were WWII veterans who appreciated the heirarchy and structure that exists in the military, which influences the leather culture. There is a concept of seniority and rank. There is a concept of honor. And there is a concept of earning your rank.

In this culture, one does not purchase leather but is gifted leather by someone who usually has seniority or authority over this person. To use the analogy of the military traditions, this gift of leather represents a medal or promotion, and its presentation can make for a ceremony. Items of leather can be a belt, shoes, vest, etc. Generally the vest and the cap (there is a name for it, I believe) are most significant.

As examples, I have seen a master present leather to his submissive during a presentation they jointly gave at a leather convention to recognize her growth, achievements, and service. I have also seen community leaders gifted leather for what they give to the community during a keynote speech at a leather convention and the like. For recipients of leather, the moment or earning of leather is touching, much like it would be for anyone who is given a medal and recognized for achievements and growth.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 7/17/2008 11:12:15 AM >

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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 11:05:06 AM   
opposingtwilight


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Sea! Thank you for answering my original question. :)

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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 11:06:39 AM   
undergroundsea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
And, there is the difference, My dear sea.  The thing is, no one asked anyone to be a part of it.  Only to recognize that certain cultures exist.


I made a greater effort to learn about the history of BDSM upon hearing a comment from Midori encouraging it. I have learned about it over time by soaking in bits here and there, and I am glad to have learned it.

What do you think those outside the leather culture can do to that would help you feel that they recognize the culture exists or are being respectful of the culture?

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 7/17/2008 11:08:11 AM >

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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 11:15:03 AM   
Missokyst


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Ahh.. lol then I guess I earned my leather.  My dominant gave me my leather jacket so I wouldnt burn another nylon shirt off if we spilled the bike again.
I thought they had specific levels of activity or something.  Seems to me that earning them is no different than being accepted by your partner.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

In this culture, one does not purchase leather but is gifted leather by someone who usually has seniority or authority over this person. To use the analogy of the military traditions, this gift of leather represents a medal or promotion, and its presentation can make for a ceremony.



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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 12:55:11 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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The only thing that is important to me is that -I- know and value the meaning of my crop. While not strictly a 'leather family', I came to where I am now by a long, circuitous path. Even my current companion didn't come into the household the long way -- she came by household vote, without having to put her feet to the fire.

I have discovered that, both spiritually and through the BDSM world, I may be the last of a dying breed -- a dinosaur who believed enough in the things I was doing to take the longest, hardest road I could find, and complete it with dignity. I even reached the point, on both roads, where I stopped looking at the goal and had come to peace with who and what I was -- even if I never 'earned my crop' or made it to "abbess". Funny thing, that -- it wasn't until I had yielded up that last bit of disappointment with where I was, and truly existed in that place, that the doors opened to give me exactly what I had been working towards for so long.

I think that people don't want to be 'beholden' to anyone any more. Most people are not patient enough to invest themselves on life-journeys like this. There are still a few, but they're becoming fewer and fewer as the Internet and the Information Explosion makes the things that we searched so hard to find immediately available to the current generation. Today, they don't need to go hunting for someone to teach -- they can learn everything they need to know on the computer or at Borders/Barnes & Noble. The field has opened so much that anyone and everyone can find a spot.

Still, it is very nice to sit down with people who have struggled to make the current availability possible, and just cherish the opportunity to really -grow- through what we've earned and learned. I refuse to debate whether one path is better than the other -- but I do know that there are things from the path that I took that can't be replaced by a thousand books, and sometimes... just sometimes... I feel bad that some of the newcomers are never going to experience that level of commitment and immersion.

Calla Firestorm


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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 1:16:33 PM   
undergroundsea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight
Sea! Thank you for answering my original question. :)


Glad it helped.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst
Seems to me that earning them is no different than being accepted by your partner.


Not quite.

Perhaps I should have used the word awarding leather or presenting leather rather than gifting leather.

Earning or awarding leather is different than just being accepted by your partner or being given a gift as simply a gesture of fondness. Earning or awarding leather involves a recognition for accomplishment in one's role, and it is understood that the leather is an award for this accomplishment. Think of a solider in the military getting a promotion, or a medal for outstanding service. Earning leather is in similar spirit.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 1:43:22 PM   
Missokyst


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Once again there is very little distinction.  There is no set rules that say, if you take this many blows, you are awarded this type of leather.  If you are able to hit this fly on the wall with your whip, you earn this leather, ect.
What it comes down to is someone says you earned this, and viola~ you are now dom, sub, slave, ect. 
Which is why I asked what are the criteria?
We see a lot of this "earning leathers" "old gaurd" bandied about but there doesn't seem to be any defining moment that grants someone that "right" to leathers.
When I see someone mention that they have earned that right a bit of me wonders what they did to get there.  For me, it just seems like a smoke screen. 
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

Earning or awarding leather is different than just being accepted by your partner or being given a gift as simply a gesture of fondness. Earning or awarding leather involves a recognition for accomplishment in one's role, and it is understood that the leather is an award for this accomplishment. Think of a solider in the military getting a promotion, or a medal for outstanding service. Earning leather is in similar spirit.

Cheers,

Sea


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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 2:35:42 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Once again there is very little distinction.  There is no set rules that say, if you take this many blows, you are awarded this type of leather.  If you are able to hit this fly on the wall with your whip, you earn this leather, ect.
What it comes down to is someone says you earned this, and viola~ you are now dom, sub, slave, ect. 
Which is why I asked what are the criteria?
We see a lot of this "earning leathers" "old gaurd" bandied about but there doesn't seem to be any defining moment that grants someone that "right" to leathers.
When I see someone mention that they have earned that right a bit of me wonders what they did to get there.  For me, it just seems like a smoke screen. 
Kyst



If you've never done anything where your performance was judged by someone else on a very subjective level, it's hard to understand how "earning ones leathers" or, in my case, earning my crop, happen. There are many areas where subjective judgment is the determining factor for completion. Prior to going through it for my crop, I went through it for my PhD... -twice- (ok, so there may be a hint of masochism in my blood somewhere). I went through it finding a publisher for my novels... there were no iron-clad criteria. It depended on mentors who evaluated the work, and they got to decide when the work was "good enough" for me to move into that next place. To be honest, by the time the dominant members of my household awarded me my crop, I'd considered and come to peace with the realization that I would be Chatelaine for the rest of my life, and would never earn anything beyond the belled collar I wore in that capacity. It actually came as a bit of a shock when I was called into the common room and was handed my crop -- I had come to peace with my role in the household, and had arrived at a place where I'd let go of the -need- to prove myself (to myself or anyone else) by earning my crop.

I can't explain to you how someone knows when the person they've been mentoring is ready for that next step. I can only tell you that we know. I can give you an idea of how it works for us, but the process is still very subjective.

The first "leather" awarded in our household is a leather collar (the first collar a prospective servant gets is a cloth collar, or occasionally, a metal chain collar). The criteria for this is being a good "fit" for our household -- having the right balance of skills and knowing how to use them so that the servant's presence is actually a bonus to the household... a good attitude, pleasant demeanor, good conversationalist, intelligent without being a know-it-all boor, minimal amount of whining about the tediousness of hir role... all very subjective, but we know when it's right and when the person is really dedicated. They also have to know the history of our household, know the basic rules that all household members follow, know the specific rules for their own service perfectly -and- live under those guidelines -most- of the time (everyone makes some mistakes). They can't be lazy -- if they see that something needs to be done, they have to take initiative, not wait around to see if someone else will do it. The minimum time for this is 90 days -- sometimes it takes longer, especially if there's been a consistent mix of really good characteristics with serious flaws... then it becomes a question of whether we think that being a part of the household will improve the flaws, or whether our methods and practices will aggravate things. That sometimes takes a while, as we try different things until we can make a decision.

The second 'earned item' in our household is the serving-set. This may be leather or chain, but it signifies a servant who we are happy to display -- a servant who is welcome to come and serve in the main room when we have company, or to be the one to provide public service or escort us when we're out about town. The criteria for this comes when we find a servant who is, in every way, focused on our needs when xhe's present (our servants don't live on premises). Usually, this is a servant who has either been offered or has actively pursued service-oriented training (butlering, etc.). Xhe may also have gone in the direction of a 'lady's maid'... learning to care for our clothing and belongings, cosmetic application, etc. In addition, xhe will have completed training in some of our 'heavy play' activities -- for me, this means learning first aid as well, to be able to provide first-aid support during scenes when I am otherwise occupied. As you've probably figured out by now, the criteria for this are "slippery". One thing I haven't mentioned is that at least one of us has to -like- this person enough that we want them around us -a lot-. If xhe's a perfectly good servant but not pleasant to spend time with, sorry, but it just isn't going to happen -- usually, we help these folks find a more accomodating environment when it becomes clear that they're not really compatible with us.

Only a few servants have any desire to have more than the serving set (most have tended to drive themselves at least that far), but the next level is the belled collar of the Head Butler or Chatelaine. This is someone who not only knows their own tasks, but has taken the initiative to learn the other service roles in the household. Xhe provides support -and- discipline for newcomers and common servants, acting as the voice and hand of the household dominant individuals, to make sure that everything runs smoothly. When our household is small, we may not have anything -but- a Butler/Chatelaine-in-training, a real "Jack/Jill of All Trades". No matter what we ask of hir, the response is always pleasant and, if what we want cannot be provided, suitable alternatives are offered with a real "can-do" spirit. A Butler/Chatelaine also has to be an outstanding diplomat. Xhe is often our face in public for things that the dominant members dont' participate in. Xhe's happy and comfortable helping to prepare scenes or supper for 30. Xhe's willing to be my right hand in the kitchen preparing a gourmet meal, and isn't afraid to taste and offer an honest critique of the seasonings (and xhe's developed the palate to be able to do so). Xhe is great with people in general, handles being an extension of our power with grace, mercy, and a strong will, and serves with the very core of hir being. Again -- you have to -see- it, and be able to recognize it, but it's very subjective. It isn't about "read this book and take this test, and you'll get the belled collar".

The last "rising" for us doesn't come often, and most of the time, we know that someone is walking this road before we even start. I told the man from the house when I approached him that I wanted him to teach me to use my talents at bossing people around constructively, so that I could guide servants. I already had "topping" kinks -- things that required that I act on someone else, like piercing, cutting, and flogging... but I felt like before I could claim someone's dedication to me, I wanted to shadow someone whom I admired. I had no idea what would be required -- but once I'd made the decision, I felt compelled to see it through. I can't tell you what they saw that told them I should get my crop. All I can tell you is that I have always tried to live gracefully through any challenge, and to respect the dignity of others... including those who laid their future at my feet.

Even after getting the crop, though, the learning isn't over. I still go to my mentors to ask questions, and I still talk to others who have better and stronger skills in different areas than I do, to try to learn more about what I love. Rignt now, we're a servant-free household. We took a -long- break after the deaths of two of our members, only a half-year apart from each other, so now that I've made the decision to add this part of my life back in, I'm spending some time refreshing myself on any number of skills from negotiation to arbitration to setting criteria and evaluating probabilities...and spent a lot of time in defining the things that move me before returning to open the door again.

Earning ones leathers is a combination of both objective and subjective criteria... but most often the objective criteria are the easy part... a little reading and answer a couple questions and that part is done -- it's the subjective stuff that really makes the difference between one person and another -- it's the hardest thing to evaluate, but within the subjective evaluation are the things that really make up a person... their dedication, their forthrightness, their dignity, their honor, and their commitment.

Calla Firestorm

PS: If you're wondering... it took me a little over 5 years


< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 7/17/2008 2:43:08 PM >


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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 2:50:39 PM   
undergroundsea


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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst
Once again there is very little distinction.  There is no set rules that say, if you take this many blows, you are awarded this type of leather. 


You are right; there are no predefined rules of the type you describe. Like Calla Firestorm says, it is based on a subjective, intuitive decision made by another who is evaluating one's progress or behavior. The distinction is similar to that that exists between the gift your dominant gave you for liking you, and between a raise, or a promotion, or a bonus one might get at work. That one's suprvisor likes one does not alone bring these recognitions. They are awarded based on a subjective evaluation of one's overall performance in their role and usually require some time in that role.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 3:23:35 PM   
misterbananafish


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in my own little world, i would wear leather cuffs to help 'advertise' my sub nature...

however, i would never wear an unearned collar, because i wouldn't want to give the impression i was already owned.

that's just my feeling...

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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 3:49:44 PM   
Missokyst


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Now you are bringing it into measurable levels.
I am an artist.  I started taking professional classes at age 13 after winning a scholarship.  I studied various techniques, learned metalwork, ceramics, watercolor, oils, and regular charcoal.  As part of the study we discussed art history.   Back in history people would apprentice to a master to learn the craft.  This was not a predetermined time frame.  Not everyone advanced to become a master.  When your art could stand on its own merit and people started coming to you to be your apprentice you moved up a notch.
When it is presented from a calculable level it is understandable to me.  But, that said I have very rarely seen anyone who could quanitfy it.  I did this, and earned that. 
For me this whole thing is subjective.
It suggests that the entire goal is to learn learn learn and then you will become a master.  Learning from mentors to teach certain skills in bdsm until you get them down to perfection, though who is to say which teacher or academy is the Havard of bdsm? 
And
what if that isnt what you want?
When I was a dancer I could catch flies in my zils and set them free.  I could send a whip flying and nab someones arm.  I have a few degrees that dont mean much to me.  Most people who know me think I am dominant.  But I have no desire for power. 
It may float some people's boat to think they have come up through the ranks but too often I see those references and have to wonder where they got their stripes.
Someone else mentioned military rankings and I could only remember my brother, who during the vietnam years rose quickly in rank.  He was fast, he was organized, he was cold blooded and served the marines well.  And then after 4 consequtive terms in nam he came home and took off (being awol) for a month.  His ranks were pulled, he was let go with discharge that left him with no benefits and no rights.
He rose and fell based on his performance.  Do people who come up in leather, ever lose their status?
Kyst


quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW


If you've never done anything where your performance was judged by someone else on a very subjective level, it's hard to understand how "earning ones leathers" or, in my case, earning my crop, happen.
PS: If you're wondering... it took me a little over 5 years



< Message edited by Missokyst -- 7/17/2008 3:53:50 PM >


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RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 3:57:15 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

i think this is often a conflict between lifestylers, and people who just find leather sexy. i am not sure if it still happnes, but when i was growing up in London, young boxers resented people wearing the Lonsdale sportswear. I suspect most people copying a fashion staement are paying it a compliment, and not meaning any harm, although there are exceptions to this.


I have to disagree a bit.

I am 24/7 Ds and have been for going on 9 years with one slave and consciously being in the Scene for almost 17 years now.

But I never, every bought into the "Old Guard" mentality that you have to earn your leathers and you have to start on the bottom or that no real difference between masochism or submissive or slave or that everyone learns in only one fashion.

So this isn't a fashion thing for me or a rejection of some fashion thing, it's a rejection of a philosophy that says there is only one way to learn and one way to do. Frankly even among the "Old Guard" that was never honestly the case as things varied from club to club.

I do this because, to paraphrase Jack Rinella, I embrace my "rugged individualism" and avoid attempts to make me one of a group or a clone of someone with more experience. I'm all for mentoring and learning but you have to do it in the way that is best for you.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: I couldn't help Myself - 7/17/2008 4:02:46 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

You have to understand that there are two different things going on. There is the Leather community where tradition and earning is important. There is the Fetish community where leather is a fetish, which means it empowers the person. The two sometimes overlap. The two need to understand, in my opinion, that what the other community does and how the other community acts isn't a direct insult to theirs.

Master Fire


Where does someone like me then fit in?

This is not a fetish for me. You will never see me in fetish anything.

But I also do buy into the "Old Guard" mentality. As a historian and a teacher I can appreciate it but I can't embrace or even say I think it's a good path for most people.

Just FYI I go to events like IML and I feel right at home, I go to GLLA and I feel right at home. I think the only time I haven't felt at home was when someone attempted to promote one method that everyone had to use or you weren't "real".

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
Profile   Post #: 60
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