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Appropriate Punishment - 7/17/2008 8:26:48 PM

MaxxTheAxe

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Joined: 5/19/2006
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My sub has just done something unforgivable. She has broken my trust in a way that no one ever has before. If it were anyone else, I would have thrown her out like yesterdays newpaper, but she and I have been through a lot so I already know that I'm going to forgive her after all.

But on the other hand, I can't just let this slide. If I'm going to be able to take her in again, she has to suffer for her crime. But taking a strap to her ass just doesn't feel like it would do any good. This is a girl who doesn't have an adult's sensibilities, even though she's age 22. If I am too violent with her it would only make her psychosis worse. If I'm too soft on her, she won't learn anything from the experience.

I don't imagine anyone can give me sound advice without knowing us and our situation better, but I'm having a hard time finding any resources on how to handle a disobedient sub in a manner that is both strict and constructive. There might even be some resources on this site, I just don't know my way around it.

Any suggestions?

Post #: 1

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/17/2008 8:33:24 PM

GreedyTop

Posts: 52100
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From: Savannah, GA
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honestly, if she truly has any kind of psychosis, I'd send her to therapy.

if you were using that word 'lightly', I have no real suggestions,as I don't know either of you.

For me, though, knowing that I had screwed up so badly, and that my partner was hurt/angry/disappointed in me, combined with knowing that I had damaged the trust so badly and would have to work REALLLLLY REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY hard to regain even a bit of that trust...

that would be punishment enough.

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RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/17/2008 8:45:12 PM

MaxxTheAxe

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She does need therapy, but for the moment I'm all she has. Thanks for the feedback, it's food for thought.

(in reply to GreedyTop)

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RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/17/2008 9:00:10 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
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From: Apple County NY
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Punishment won't solve the underlying issues. Why did she break your trust? Was this due to fear and anxiety that the relationship is becoming too important to her? If so, was she subconsciously trying to get it to end while she still feels she could recover from a break-up?

If so, and I'm assuming there was such an underlying motivation, you can see that punishment won't solve a deep rooted problem due to early loss and family of origin issues. Therapy. Single, group or self help such as ACOA.

What punishment might do here is allow her to cry it out and feel your forgiveness.

I think that better than anything else is not punishment but discipline. Require to start a journal, and require entries on past loss and how such losses hurt her, and the after effects of the losses.

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Post #: 4

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/17/2008 9:14:31 PM

batshalom

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Ooooo, good one, Celeste!

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Post #: 5

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/17/2008 9:23:06 PM

azropedntied

Posts: 1829
Joined: 7/25/2005
From: Phx AZ
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sounds like instead of punishment ,redirection , with some lessons and guidance should be more in order .You have stated that your not tossing her aside which is good , nnow open those lines of communications and help guide her and learn . good luck to you both .

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Post #: 6

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/17/2008 10:07:36 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Pretty much- physical punishment won't do anyone any good in the long term here. The harshness will be ordering her to get into therapy by the end of the month, or the relationship is over.

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Post #: 7

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/17/2008 10:16:13 PM

mistressadj

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Joined: 11/5/2007
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Just like a parent-child relationship...the natural consequence of her breaking your trust is that you don't trust her. What it might mean, depending on HOW you don't trust her, is that she is no longer allowed to go out alone...or that the computer now has a password that only you know...or that she is now subject to spot checks...urine tests...whatever is appropriate given your situation.

(in reply to MaxxTheAxe)

Post #: 8

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/17/2008 11:00:05 PM

kinkypuppy2

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Joined: 11/4/2007
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she is 22. You do not appear to be much older.
Perhaps you both need to step away from each other and do some growing.

Btw.. once trust is broken for any reason it can never be fully repaired.

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(in reply to MaxxTheAxe)

Post #: 9

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/18/2008 12:26:35 AM

proudsub

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From: Washington
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quote:

For me, though, knowing that I had screwed up so badly, and that my partner was hurt/angry/disappointed in me, combined with knowing that I had damaged the trust so badly and would have to work REALLLLLY REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY hard to regain even a bit of that trust...

that would be punishment enough.

I totally agree with this because that is how it went with me after He forgave me.
I do admire the OP for forgiving her and hopefully trust can be rebuilt.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

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(in reply to GreedyTop)

Post #: 10

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/18/2008 1:27:39 AM

Owner4SexSlave

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There is a time to drop the fun and games, and get to the root of the offense and the problem. Sure it happened, and she broke your trust. Now, it's important for you to understand why she did what she did. It's important for her to understand why she did what she did. Important that she is aware of it's effects upon you.

Basically good old fashioned communication. You need to understand the mind of that your are Doming over, any issues or psychosis. She needs to become more mentally focused upon her own issues. Conversation (without lecturing) can work wonders. Even more so, if you help them realize and admit to themselves their own short comings. People don't like to see short comings. She needs to maintain a focus upon certain things. People that ignore their own faults and mental hangups reallly don't get any better.

Generally these things take work, and steps towards improvement. One can't do it, if it's not on thier mind that they have a problem. Talk about and praise any improvements in behavior. Do the whole positive reinforcement and reward thing.

I don't know what else to say, this is my only advice based on the info you shared.

(in reply to MaxxTheAxe)

Post #: 11

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/18/2008 5:19:21 AM

DarkSteven

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The important thing here is to understand that any punishment should not be only physical. It should be primarily mental/emotional with a physical component. An example would be a spanking broken into sessions, with scolding and corner time in the breaks.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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Post #: 12

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/18/2008 5:46:10 AM

HeavansKeeper

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Maxx,

The power behind disappointment (as a punishment, intended or not) grows with time. The more she loves you, the harder it hits her. The more you love her, the harder you're hit.

You have some great advice here about fixing the problem, and that shouldn't be overlooked. That said, if you feel punishment is in order, don't over do it.

I'll tell you a story, my least proud moment in my D/s experience. We, My Pet and I, were VERY new. We were tinkering with forces not understood. She had lessons to kneel when giving/receiving gifts to/from me. She didn't. It was the first time she ever made a slip up. Hungry with wanting to punish her, I took off her collar. =\

I didn't know how hard that hit her. Since then, we've spoken about it, and have decided that psychological punishments are out, and never to use relational aggression. Since then, she hasn't worn a neck collar, only necklaces and collar-bracelets. I am ashamed of what I did, and we both regard it as the single largest mistake in our history, but I learned... I experienced.

And experience is the ability to spare a novice (not suggesting you're a novice in any capacity, but perhaps my lesson will save you from an embarrassingly stupid act) some measure of suffering.

What she did and how long you've been together would, for me, be enough to give you more concrete advice. If you don't want to share it, I'll assume she slept with someone else after two years.

And so he assumed... I've always told people in relationships "being with someone two years is a great reason to stay with them two days... but not two years." This goes in mind with "Relationships either last until death or end prior to death." Do you want to keep her? Some couples simply did not have enough love to overcome infidelity. There's no shame in that. Sometimes it's the coffin nail. Other couples have the elasticity to forgive. The worst are the middleground couples. They can't forgive, and they can't break up.

First you must decide what you are. As awkward as this sounds, her opinion doesn't matter here (outside of how sorry she is). If you simply cannot and will not forgive her, it's time to move on. Relationships take two, and if one checks out, the other...

Deep down, you know if you're going to get past this already. If you decide you can't get past it, then it's over.

If you decide you can get past it, then the work begins. Find out why she did this unspeakable act. My Pet has shown disobedience before, but I realized that she has two* types: 1) Forgetfullness, which is natural. 2) Protectism (Not the desire to close trade with other countries to foster internal economy). She will be disobedient if she thinks she can help me more doing it her way. The purest example is when we play video games together and I tell her "RUN!"

She stays and fights. We both die.

While she is being willfully disobedient, I have recognized that it's "for my own good." She does it to serve me better. I certainly don't allow this disobedience, but I don't punish it, I curb it. If this is the situation with yours, be aware.

In my view the most offensive violations My Pet can do are...
1) Sleeping around.
2) Stealing from me.
3) Using illicit drugs or cigarettes without my direct consent.

Let's say yours stole from your wallet to buy coke and slept with some guy. *shudders*

Was it an isolated incident? Does she feel horrible about it (as opposed to "Yeah? So what?")? Did she have a choice in the matter? Does her lack of sensability excuse it? Was she in control of her actions? Was she aware you weren't aware? (Did she think you were ok with it, basically.)

All of these, and more, are factors in how to punish. PERSONALLY... I would require her to bake cupcakes for me, or go buy me a single donut. (I'm hungry

) As said previously, "making her feel your forgiveness" (a beautiful sentiment, by the way) is key. Be the big man.

If she loves you as you love her (enough to forgive her) she's torn up enough. Now she is the river. You must be the stone.

*She has a third type of disobedience, but that is playfulness, and in a 24-7 relationship, I feel that is essential, and is fostered, not punished.

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to MaxxTheAxe)

Post #: 13

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/18/2008 5:53:42 AM

Asmodeus

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One suggestion I would offer is that you attempt to step back. Get a little perspective on the issue. If you weren't in a D/s relationship, what would your reaction have been?

Your post seems to imply that this breach is the end result of a pattern of behavior. And you've also made it clear that despite the severity of the breach, you already plan on forgiving her.

If ending the relationship is not an option, what consequences does she actually face for her actions?

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Deus Ex Machina

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Post #: 14

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/18/2008 6:02:41 AM

tsatske

Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
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You seem to be under the common misconception that the point of corpreal punishment is for it to hurt, 'really, really bad.' That is not what makes corpreal punishment work.
The hardest to accept, actual, official punishment my Master ever gave me was because he was upset with a lack of communication on my part that he felt breached trust. He understood that it was not an intentional act, just a matter of me alighning myself to a new way of thought/life with a wonderful, micromanaging Master, that I needed to tell him, well, a lot of things that I was used to simply doing on my own.
He held me while we talked about it. He let me see how disappointed and hurt he was - something I think is hard for a Dominant, but, clearly, he thought I was worth it. We talked about punishment.
Then he told me he wasn't going to punish me. And he told me why - becuase punishment could not correct this, only I could. And because he knew it would be harder for me to deal with without punishment. He said, 'the next time you think of doing something like this, remeber how much this hurts.'
We are not talking about cutting contact - he held me while i cried. He simply refused to punish me. it was horrible, and all of how horrible it was was based on my knowing that i had disappointed him.

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

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Post #: 15

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/18/2008 6:10:50 AM

katie978

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Joined: 7/21/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

There is a time to drop the fun and games, and get to the root of the offense and the problem. Sure it happened, and she broke your trust.

You can physically punish her and sit her in the corner and scold her all you want, but it seems that your relationship has much deeper issues than tying her up and tickling her is going to be able to fix. Although dominants can play the role of the sadistic torturer, they also occasionally play the role of counselor/"life coach". It sounds like your submissive needs therapy much more than she needs a firm spanking. If the issues she has really are caused by her psychosis, then the only way to stop the issues is to fix her brain. Punishing her for what she (assumedly) can't control is like beating a kid with ADHD for not behaving: you might eventually gain results, but the mental health of the person in question could be damaged. If she can't afford counseling because of money issues, make her get a job with better insurance. If she just refuses to go- make her.

However, I'm not entirely sure how much of her demenour you describes is the result of psychosis and how much is simply her regular demeanour. "This is a girl who doesn't have an adult's sensibilities, even though she's age 22." In my experience, this is not a trait that can be fixed via a strap to the ass. This girl needs to grow up, she certainly won't do it with you coddling her and letting her do whatever she wants, and she may never do it at all. The perpetual child types are pretty much characterized by extreme selfishness, and that's another trait that I've never seen cured.

I'm not sure how much a punishment at this point could stick. By taking her back, you've proven that there's really nothing she could do that you wouldn't take her back (granted, we don't know the offense, but still...). If she gets tired of your punishment, she can just go and do whatever she had done again and come back to you. If she still wants to be yours, I suggest that you enforce a strict punishment. Cut out the things she loves in life. Make sure she's home anytime she's not at work or therapy. Strict diet. Show her that you're willing to take her back only if she makes great strides towards redemption. If she can handle the punishment, she's in. If she can't take it, or if she doesn't follow the strict orders, she's out. Simple.

_____________________________

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Post #: 16

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/18/2008 6:28:29 AM

HeavansKeeper

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quote:

ORIGINAL: katie978

I'm not sure how much a punishment at this point could stick. By taking her back, you've proven that there's really nothing she could do that you wouldn't take her back (granted, we don't know the offense, but still...). If she gets tired of your punishment, she can just go and do whatever she had done again and come back to you.

You point out one of the dangers of forgiving and moving on. Proper examination of the situation (discussion), a meaningful change, and a watchful eye for repeating history are the only protection people have from that possibility. Yes, someone could tighten the reigns, and I'm sure it works sometimes. I've only seen it hold the relationship together a few miserable stressful years. While it could work for a hardened slave girl, a childlike submissive girl (who probably seeks that daddy-dom quality in men) could feel victimized.

Continued abuse of the "power" she has over her dominant, in that he'll always take her back is unforgivable. It's also hard to see, as the only one with eyes for it is the chain-forgiver.

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

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RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/18/2008 7:59:11 AM

MisterStrongWill

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Joined: 12/31/2004
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I found all of the comments here to be good ones. My only word of advice is find the root of the evil so to speak. The mind is the best way to Dominate. See what made her do what ever broke your trust, plan out a specific way to correct it and use forms off denial to correct her craving for it. As a Dom you have to read and understand her personal problems, her being young gives you a cleaner slate (so to speak) than someone who is 40 like me. The older we get the more set with bad habits, or routines we become. It is like when I was 20 quit a job , hell just get another one who cares. Now I think twice maybe three times before walking out. Good luck and it will take time to fix your situation!

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Post #: 18

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/18/2008 5:44:38 PM

ApathyRomance

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Joined: 4/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkypuppy2

she is 22. You do not appear to be much older.
Perhaps you both need to step away from each other and do some growing.

Yeah. . . silly young'uns, trying to make a realationship work.

(in reply to kinkypuppy2)

Post #: 19

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/18/2008 6:52:11 PM

CalifChick

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From: California
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First you say it's unforgivable, then you say you're going to forgive her. You say if you're too violent, her psychosis will worsen.

Both of those are very strong statements, and I detect an undercurrent of extreme statements... and a tendency to extreme statements can often mean difficulty in communicating. Always say what you mean and mean what you say. So, for instance, it's either unforgivable or it's not. I know what you meant due to your followup statements, but you did not mean the first statement. More correctly, "in someone I was not so close to, this would be unforgivable."

And then you're worried about making her psychosis worse. Is she really psychotic, or was this another extreme statement? People who suffer from psychosis have hallucinations or delusions, unusual and/or bizarre behavior, difficulty in the general activities of daily living (eating, sleeping, showering, dressing), to name just a few symptoms. If she is indeed psychotic, why would you even consider administering a physical punishment that has the potential to worsen that??

So are these things true, or was it a product of your frustration? If it was a product of your frustration, then how well are you communicating with her?

Cali

_____________________________

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(in reply to ApathyRomance)

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