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RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/18/2008 6:55:40 PM

Leatherist

Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
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Her punishment should be to sit quietly with you and have you explain how what she did hurt you.

And then ask her how she was feeling, and why she did what she did..

And what she feels she needs to do to atone. If she really cares,that will probably be much worse than anything you can dream up. And she will not be able to rebel aganst it.

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Post #: 21

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/20/2008 4:33:46 AM

VioletAshes

Posts: 101
Joined: 1/16/2008
Status: offline

If she is your true submissive, the fact that she knows she has disappointed you is punishment enough. However, the lie or problem sounds like it is outside of the sexual realm and therefore should be dealt with through discussion and no physical punishment should apply or you may risk abusing the trust she has in *you*.

Is the lie her natural defence?

< Message edited by VioletAshes -- 7/20/2008 4:34:47 AM >

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Post #: 22

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/20/2008 8:38:06 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxxTheAxe

My sub has just done something unforgivable. She has broken my trust in a way that no one ever has before. If it were anyone else, I would have thrown her out like yesterdays newpaper, but she and I have been through a lot so I already know that I'm going to forgive her after all.

But on the other hand, I can't just let this slide. If I'm going to be able to take her in again, she has to suffer for her crime. But taking a strap to her ass just doesn't feel like it would do any good. This is a girl who doesn't have an adult's sensibilities, even though she's age 22. If I am too violent with her it would only make her psychosis worse. If I'm too soft on her, she won't learn anything from the experience.

I don't imagine anyone can give me sound advice without knowing us and our situation better, but I'm having a hard time finding any resources on how to handle a disobedient sub in a manner that is both strict and constructive. There might even be some resources on this site, I just don't know my way around it.

Any suggestions?

First of all, you need to do a reality check on what you're saying. She didn't do something "unforgivable", because you say you are going to forgive her--which means you either already have, or you never really will (but will go through the motions and simply hold it over her head for the remainder of your relationship).

Second of all, punishment is appropriate when you feel it restores the proper balance to the relationship. That could mean whipping her bloody (literally), it could mean an ass-fucking sans lubricant, it could mean kneeling on rice while she thanks you for the privilege again and again (if you're into mental domination, that one can be fun). "Appropriate" is a word only you can use.

Third of all, you say she has violated your trust. That sucks, but it does happen. Punishment alone will not repair that trust. There is no magic ritual that will restore your trust in her. Both of you will have to work on rebuilding that trust--it can be done, but it will take time, effort, and commitment on both sides.

Worry less about the punishment and spend some serious time discussing with her what comes afterwards. Damaged trust is a major issue in any relationship--if you don't make resolving it a priority, then give up and let her go.

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Post #: 23

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/20/2008 8:49:33 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxxTheAxe

She does need therapy, but for the moment I'm all she has. Thanks for the feedback, it's food for thought.

Stop. Now.

If she truly needs therapy, get her ass into therapy. Your profile says you are in the Seattle area: this link has a list of free counseling resources and support groups serving the Puget Sound area. If these don't fill the bill, then let Google be your friend and hers.

If she won't go to therapy, you need to run very far, very fast, in the opposite of whatever direction she's going. Do not delude yourself into believing you are doing her any favors by supporting her not going to therapy.

Do not let a power-exchange relationship turn into a proxy for therapy. The one is a horrible substitute for the other.

In fact, forget about master and slave for the moment. You say she needs therapy--ergo, she is hurting, and she is your friend. You need to help your friend--get her to therapy, stand beside her throughout whatever healing she needs to go through.

The standard is simple. If you are not helping her heal, you are helping her hurt. One makes you a good friend, the other makes you a total bastard. Pick one and go with it.

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Post #: 24

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/20/2008 8:52:03 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

Btw.. once trust is broken for any reason it can never be fully repaired.

Thankfully for most relationships, that is not true.

Trust can be repaired. It takes time and effort, and some serious growth from both sides, but it can be done.

_____________________________

(in reply to kinkypuppy2)

Post #: 25

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/20/2008 12:08:40 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

piece of cake. Here's my advice... KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE BALL

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxxTheAxe
My sub has just done something unforgivable. She has broken my trust in a way that no one ever has before. If it were anyone else, I would have thrown her out like yesterdays newpaper, but she and I have been through a lot so I already know that I'm going to forgive her after all.

Good.. that's a start. Now stop thinking of it as unforgivable since it clearly IS forgivable. There's no point in making the problem worse than it already is in your own head.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxxTheAxe
But on the other hand, I can't just let this slide.

Out of curiosity... why? Is there some chapter in the ultimate dom's handbook that clearly says you MUST not let this slide? Will you lose your domliness somehow? As in all things, keep your eye on your actual intended outcome. All actions on your part need to be decided based upon whether they will help or hinder that outcome. Nobody is forcing you to do anything here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxxTheAxe
If I'm going to be able to take her in again, she has to suffer for her crime.

Really? Who says? What is this, the biblical eye for an eye? Is this vengeance or training? Ask yourself again WHO or HOW your actions as the dom have become so constrained.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxxTheAxe
But taking a strap to her ass just doesn't feel like it would do any good.

Yeah, and you know what? I have a hard time imagining any SERIOUS issue that this would be the right approach too. Look, if your girl spills the drink on you, you can think about a tanning. But when there are serious relationship issues afoot, the odds of anything as simplistic as a whipping solving anything are astronomically small. Go with your gut on this one... it's almost certainly right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxxTheAxe
This is a girl who doesn't have an adult's sensibilities, even though she's age 22. If I am too violent with her it would only make her psychosis worse. If I'm too soft on her, she won't learn anything from the experience.

Ahhh, we get to the real issue. Your chosen partner whom you care about deeply is... well.. not very stable as a partner. It seems to me that this is the real decision you should be focusing on, not whether/how to punish her.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxxTheAxe
I don't imagine anyone can give me sound advice without knowing us and our situation better, but I'm having a hard time finding any resources on how to handle a disobedient sub in a manner that is both strict and constructive. There might even be some resources on this site, I just don't know my way around it.

Well, you're right in that specific advice cannot be given. However, I can offer up some general advice. Before you punish a disobedient sub, you need to understand WHY she was disobedient. How can you hope to change anything without attacking it at it's root? That being said, you need to look at the underlying layers here and craft a course of action based upon what you see there. From your descriptions, overt punishment is likely not the right move. So what is? What's going on that puts her in this position of wanting to submit yet disobeying. Out of curiosity, are you certain the problem is on her end, not yours?

Keep your eye on the ball... Or, as another of my favorite posters says....

FOCUS

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to MaxxTheAxe)

Post #: 26

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 7/20/2008 2:39:13 PM

ElanSubdued

Posts: 1511
Status: offline

Maxx,

I read your OP and scanned other people's replies. You've been given some good advice already. I'll add that in my opinion:

- Communication, rather then punishment, is needed. It seems like a much better approach to get your submissive to understand what she did wrong and how she broke your trust. See if she is able to use her empathy skills to understand how she hurt you and have her make suggestions as to how to prevent this from happening again.

- If your submissive is truly dealing with psychological issues, punishing her isn't likely to help these. Doing so will contribute to the problem. As others suggested, I'd help her get the professional assistance she needs.

- When trust is broken, it takes a time for this to be rebuilt. Trust *can* be rebuilt though. It will take both of you being committed to this process, following through, and demonstrating that you're committed to your relationship and to one another. Again, I suggest you talk to your submissive about this and work on suggestions together as to how you can start this process.

- If your feelings are really hurt, communicate this to your submissive. You might also suggest that she apologize to you. You cannot force an apology from her, but you can communicate your need to hear her thoughts and feelings.

Hope this helps,

Elan.

(in reply to MaxxTheAxe)

Post #: 27

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 9/26/2008 5:47:53 PM

Supershovel83

Posts: 25
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

I wholeheartedly understand and pass along my empathy. In my past relationship she often did things unintentionally but still incorrectly. Occasionally she destroyed without care for no better reason than it suited her greed or desire at the time.

Punishments to me were always varied and set by the severity of the behavior. I found once she had lied to me and had disgraced our relationship to others and so I once had her strip in the yard and hose herself down with icy water in NW fall conditions and required her to acconpany me for a night on the town. While out I required that she periodically continue to pour glasses of ice water on herself to demonstrate to her how cold, unhappy and uncomfortable her life would be w/o me.

Another time she cheated and lied to me and we were very near ending. She was desperate to correct her wrong doing. Seeing that I afforded her an opportunity. I instructed her to stand facing the corner and hike up her skirt. I could see the fear on her face as she turned to comply. She believed I was going to raise my hand to her so instead I instructed her to punish herself. She began spanking herself but wasn't effective enough so I offered her my belt. As she wailed in torment and distress I insisted she demonstrate my true worth to her. This went on for some time until I could see all of the blood blisters and welts above any normal undamaged skin. She never made that same error and could never blame my hand for being too harsh. As the instrument of her own punishment she learned better control and a fear of her own actions.

There were many other occasions which often entailed a public act such as bowing/kneeling in a crowded area, public nudity among non-lifestyle folk or even an entire night out utilizing speech deprivation and instead requiring a barking substitution. Damn I'm twisted but she genuinly made so many horrific errors and misdeeds.

I wish you better fortune in your relationship/

(in reply to MaxxTheAxe)

Post #: 28

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 9/26/2008 5:57:46 PM

Supershovel83

Posts: 25
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

You all speak as though we all exist upon the same consciousness level or as though we all share the same ability to utilize our higher thought functions. lol I too once believed in those beautiful ideals. I have met animals who walk upright and exist for no reason in particular and are only capable of just one thing.... surviving. To those few there is only training as you would an animal. I envy and hope to obtain a relationship next which won't require this level of suffering or severity. lol, perhaps after all of my recent experiences I ought to endeavor to enter counseling. I wonder now how many D/s relationships are based on personality disorders and the attraction between them such as a Narccicist man and a histrionic woman. As to not damaging... always tailor the punishment to gratify your need to right the wrong while not employing a technique or subjectmatter that induces additional injury to already weak or damaged psychology. jmho

(in reply to Supershovel83)

Post #: 29

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 9/26/2008 6:21:11 PM

persephonee

Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Supershovel83

I wholeheartedly understand and pass along my empathy. In my past relationship she often did things unintentionally but still incorrectly. Occasionally she destroyed without care for no better reason than it suited her greed or desire at the time.

Punishments to me were always varied and set by the severity of the behavior. I found once she had lied to me and had disgraced our relationship to others and so I once had her strip in the yard and hose herself down with icy water in NW fall conditions and required her to acconpany me for a night on the town. While out I required that she periodically continue to pour glasses of ice water on herself to demonstrate to her how cold, unhappy and uncomfortable her life would be w/o me.

Another time she cheated and lied to me and we were very near ending. She was desperate to correct her wrong doing. Seeing that I afforded her an opportunity. I instructed her to stand facing the corner and hike up her skirt. I could see the fear on her face as she turned to comply. She believed I was going to raise my hand to her so instead I instructed her to punish herself. She began spanking herself but wasn't effective enough so I offered her my belt. As she wailed in torment and distress I insisted she demonstrate my true worth to her. This went on for some time until I could see all of the blood blisters and welts above any normal undamaged skin. She never made that same error and could never blame my hand for being too harsh. As the instrument of her own punishment she learned better control and a fear of her own actions.

There were many other occasions which often entailed a public act such as bowing/kneeling in a crowded area, public nudity among non-lifestyle folk or even an entire night out utilizing speech deprivation and instead requiring a barking substitution. Damn I'm twisted but she genuinly made so many horrific errors and misdeeds.

I wish you better fortune in your relationship/

Are you single now?

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to Supershovel83)

Post #: 30

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 9/26/2008 6:28:25 PM

Supershovel83

Posts: 25
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

I believe I am finally. It took 5 years, $60,000.00, a business, an aerospace career, a harley, a criminal record, my sense of taste and smell, and one teenager emancipation. LOL lucky to get out of that relationship alive! Sometimes a person can be too tenacious and determined to overcome unbridgeable differences.

(in reply to persephonee)

Post #: 31

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 9/26/2008 6:37:38 PM

LookieNoNookie

Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxxTheAxe

My sub has just done something unforgivable. She has broken my trust in a way that no one ever has before. If it were anyone else, I would have thrown her out like yesterdays newpaper, but she and I have been through a lot so I already know that I'm going to forgive her after all.

But on the other hand, I can't just let this slide. If I'm going to be able to take her in again, she has to suffer for her crime. But taking a strap to her ass just doesn't feel like it would do any good. This is a girl who doesn't have an adult's sensibilities, even though she's age 22. If I am too violent with her it would only make her psychosis worse. If I'm too soft on her, she won't learn anything from the experience.

I don't imagine anyone can give me sound advice without knowing us and our situation better, but I'm having a hard time finding any resources on how to handle a disobedient sub in a manner that is both strict and constructive. There might even be some resources on this site, I just don't know my way around it.

Any suggestions?

I don't know if this would work, but it may. I suggest if you truly care about this girl, you consider this as your first option.

For such a heinous crime, I would force her to clean the house of a male sub, naked, 24/7 AND warm the bed of that same male sub for no less 60 days.

I offer myself (selflessly) as the person who would take on this burden for the both of you.

(Sometimes I think I just give too much of myself).

(in reply to MaxxTheAxe)

Post #: 32

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 9/27/2008 5:03:58 PM

tweedydaddy

Posts: 673
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline

You are MaxxThe Axe and you worry that SHE might have a psychosis?

(in reply to MaxxTheAxe)

Post #: 33

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 9/27/2008 6:26:24 PM

scarlethiney

Posts: 492
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxxTheAxe

My sub has just done something unforgivable. She has broken my trust in a way that no one ever has before. If it were anyone else, I would have thrown her out like yesterdays newpaper, but she and I have been through a lot so I already know that I'm going to forgive her after all.

But on the other hand, I can't just let this slide. If I'm going to be able to take her in again, she has to suffer for her crime. But taking a strap to her ass just doesn't feel like it would do any good. This is a girl who doesn't have an adult's sensibilities, even though she's age 22. If I am too violent with her it would only make her psychosis worse. If I'm too soft on her, she won't learn anything from the experience.

I don't imagine anyone can give me sound advice without knowing us and our situation better, but I'm having a hard time finding any resources on how to handle a disobedient sub in a manner that is both strict and constructive. There might even be some resources on this site, I just don't know my way around it.

Any suggestions?

First I would think justification for your anger would depend on the way in which she betrayed your trust in her. You are the one who mentions psychosis and if that is a real issue then she needs counseling not punishment. I realize there are some very mature 22yr olds out there but honestly, thats very young to be dealing in absolutes.
I think the suggestion of time apart was a good one. Perhaps you both need some mentoring and counseling by some who are more experienced and capable of guiding you both in this lifestyle.

scarlet

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(in reply to MaxxTheAxe)

Post #: 34

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 9/28/2008 5:37:40 AM

bosch

Posts: 14
Joined: 5/5/2008
Status: offline

I think celticlord2112 hit the nail on the head - if this person needs therapy, and if you are truly committed as the Dom, then it is your responsibility to make sure she gets the therapy. As a Dom you have to take that initiative. You mention that she does not have the maturity level of a typical twenty-something, which makes the psychological situation that much more dangerous.

You need to stop now and do some serious thinking about the overall situation.

(in reply to scarlethiney)

Post #: 35

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 9/30/2008 11:27:48 PM

ApathyRomance

Posts: 106
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkypuppy2

she is 22. You do not appear to be much older.
Perhaps you both need to step away from each other and do some growing.

Seriously. How can you work on a relationship at that age!

(in reply to kinkypuppy2)

Post #: 36

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 10/1/2008 5:00:31 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkypuppy2
Btw.. once trust is broken for any reason it can never be fully repaired.

I'd have to disagree. Were this true, then no relationship could ever survive the long haul. Inevitably, people hurt each other over time. Trust can be re-earned, that's what forgiveness is for.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to kinkypuppy2)

Post #: 37

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 10/1/2008 5:14:52 AM

sirsholly

Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxxTheAxe

She does need therapy, but for the moment I'm all she has. Thanks for the feedback, it's food for thought.

Stop. Now.

If she truly needs therapy, get her ass into therapy. Your profile says you are in the Seattle area: this link has a list of free counseling resources and support groups serving the Puget Sound area. If these don't fill the bill, then let Google be your friend and hers.

If she won't go to therapy, you need to run very far, very fast, in the opposite of whatever direction she's going. Do not delude yourself into believing you are doing her any favors by supporting her not going to therapy.

Do not let a power-exchange relationship turn into a proxy for therapy. The one is a horrible substitute for the other.

In fact, forget about master and slave for the moment. You say she needs therapy--ergo, she is hurting, and she is your friend. You need to help your friend--get her to therapy, stand beside her throughout whatever healing she needs to go through.

The standard is simple. If you are not helping her heal, you are helping her hurt. One makes you a good friend, the other makes you a total bastard. Pick one and go with it.

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(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 38

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 10/1/2008 6:01:15 AM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Supershovel83
I believe I am finally.

Good for you. I suspect that Tarl Cabot would be pleased to make your acquaintance. If you do, be sure to step on his foot and to tell him that he is an urt. He will appreciate that.

(in reply to Supershovel83)

Post #: 39

RE: Appropriate Punishment - 10/1/2008 7:38:57 AM

BlackPhx

Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline

Axe is also another name for Guitar.

Maxx.. CelticLord has given you the best advice possible. Use the resources available in Seattle to get her the help she needs. Even if you have to pick her up bodily and carry her in..do it. We don't know what her psychosis is..just not that much information here, but unless you are a Dr. it is highly unlikely that you could prescribe accurately any medications she needs and the therapy support that would need to go with it. If you were a Dr. you would be unwise to do so with a faily member or S.O. your too close.

Since we don't know what she did and it could be anything from cutting herself to getting down with your best friend, burning down the house, or anything really, and we don't know if it stemmed from her problems, your problems with her, the relationship dynamic or whatever, we cannot advise you on the proper actions to take regarding punishment.

Talking and finding out what caused her to do it, IF she can articulate that and how it made you feel is about the best you can do then base the punsihment on that and her known internal dynamics.

poenkitten

(in reply to tweedydaddy)

Post #: 40

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