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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/18/2008 2:22:57 PM   
MstrDennynSlave


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Slaveboyforyou, I agree that people will slip through the cracks, and their behavior might not be noticed. But when the signs are there, mental health professionals should listen to the parents, spouse, sibling, whoever is in close contact with that person. Not just brush it off to the side.

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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/18/2008 3:06:42 PM   
jlf1961


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I am afraid that Ted Bundy, the Green River Killer, and the rest of the known serial killers all seemed to have perfectly normal lives.  I know there is a term to cover these types of personalities, but I cant remember off hand what it is.

Charles Joseph Whitman was raised in an abusive household, kept a journal that detailed his thoughts of violence before he went up on the UT clock tower and started shooting people.

He was discovered to have a brain tumor in the area of his brain that dealt with impulse control and emotions.  However, he had exhibited signs of anti-social behavior for quite some time prior to the incident, and the tumor was said to be small.

Seung-Hui Cho, the man responsible for the Virginia Tech shootings was diagnosed with and was treated for a severe anxiety disorder in middle school, and he continued receiving therapy and special education support until his junior year of high school. While in college in 2005, Cho had been accused of stalking two female students and was declared mentally ill by a Virginia special justice.  At least one professor had asked him to seek counseling.

Eric Harris  and Dylan Klebold, the two  boys responsible for Columbine actually had a website that detailed their anger against society, although police investigated death threats on the web site, not much else was done.

Now to claim that the availability of firearms is responsible for these acts, is about as justified as making the claim that firearms, jets, bombs, tanks and other military hardware is responsible for war, which is not the case.

Prior to the invention of assault weapons, humans have killed using single shot pistols, gun powder, knives, clubs, rocks, rope, fire and anything else that could be utilized as a weapon.

The problem does not lie with the instrument used, but with the person who commits such crimes.   In centuries past, there was no way to detect and prevent such incidents.  Today there are ways to detect people who would be prone to such acts, there just is no resources available.

Nor would I advocate incarcerating individuals as soon as any of the behavior patterns make themselves known.  If society is partially to blame for this behavior, then society must find a way to prevent or treat such behavior.

The problem as I see it is that society finds it easier to blame the tool of the crime or the individual rather than look at any other stimulus that may have contributed to the problem.



_____________________________

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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/18/2008 5:07:55 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist
No one shut out Ted Bundy.

Bundy was a typical psychopath.


Rule...in my line of work i dealt with psychpaths on a daily basis. Ted Bundy was NOT typical.



He was very much a typical Charismatic Psychopath...which of the PCL traits are you disputing Bundy being a match for?

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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/18/2008 5:14:21 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I tend to agree.  No guns does not equate to no murders or spree murders, it just changes the method.

What I would like to know is, if the signs show at a very early age, WHY THE HELL DONT ANYONE DO ANYTHING?

Surely these behaviors are noticed in school... oh wait, we are talking about the same school system that graduates students who cant read.



Do something?  Do what? 

Lock up people with illnesses, because they haven't committed any crime yet, but we just know they might, on the say so of some school board functionary or HMO cubicle dweller?

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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/18/2008 5:33:23 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

He was very much a typical Charismatic Psychopath...which of the PCL traits are you disputing Bundy being a match for?


I agree.  When you read more in depth about him, you find he wasn't as intelligent as people gave him credit for.  Anne Rule did a great job breaking him down for what he was in her book, A Stranger Beside Me.  He really wasn't the Hannbal Lector type...none of these guys are.  All of them are sad, pathetic people that have no control over anything in their lives.  So they put on a facade to give an illusion of control and normality to other people. 

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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/18/2008 6:33:07 PM   
Vendaval


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The problem does not lie with the instrument used, but with the person who commits such crimes.   In centuries past, there was no way to detect and prevent such incidents.  Today there are ways to detect people who would be prone to such acts, there just is no resources available.

Nor would I advocate incarcerating individuals as soon as any of the behavior patterns make themselves known.  If society is partially to blame for this behavior, then society must find a way to prevent or treat such behavior.

What type of treatment do you have in mind?

The problem as I see it is that society finds it easier to blame the tool of the crime or the individual rather than look at any other stimulus that may have contributed to the problem.

Agreed.
 
I see two main issues here, the nature vrs nuture continuum and how to treat someone who shows early signs of highly agressive, anti-social behavior. 
 
Frequently the authorities cannot take action until a crime is already committed.  Also a person can be admitted for a set time (48 hours in some locales) to a mental hospital, but will be released if they do not present an immediate threat to themselves or others.



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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/18/2008 9:14:09 PM   
DomAviator


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I think its all psychobabble bullshit. People do fucked up things because they are fucked up... Not being included in someones clique isnt cause for a spree killing. The problem is that fucking parents these days think that kids have rights, and should be secure in their property and papers, etc... When I have kids Ill toss their room whenever I fucking feel like it. Diary? Yeah good hunny keep a diary until you are 18 it will tell me when I need to kick your ass or drag you off for treatment. Youre being a good girl sweety well thats nice, but the day Im doing the laundy and my UV light glows on your panties is the day youre going to the doctor and getting your first depo shot. Lie all you want, but the UV light doesnt. Wanna be sure - well lets just see if the spot turns purple... (I did that with my cheating ex. Sorry bitch the lab says thats semen and the DNA excludes me... Your personal property is at the following self storage and I have booked you a hotel room and prepaid for the next week. After that you are on your own.)

If kids of mine had guns, and bombs, and written documents planning an assault on the HS and a hit list etc I would know it LONG before anything went down. The day they started hanging around with weirdos and wearing black trenchcoats is the day that daddy puts his fucking foot down and the new regieme takes effect....

Just like that fucking "Radioactive Boyscout" who built a nuclear reactor in his moms shed and turned the place into a superfund clean up site. http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html Rest assured that if my kid was getting mail from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and packages from labs and was buying thousands of lantern mantles and $1000 worth of lithim batteries I would be conducting an "Article 32 Hearing" long before he built a reactor in the shed and brought it to criticality.

Plus - why the fuck do people think that kids need lots of money and credit cards? If you dole out money to your kids $20 at a time, then they arent able to build an aresenal or a nuclear reactor. Yeah Ill give them money, Ill also look at the bank statements to which I shall be a signatory until they are 18. If I see charges from "Bubbas Gun Shop" of "Acme Nuclear and Industrial" then theres gonna be a little "show and tell" on their purchases...  I know youre gonna say "they will save the money" but see that wont work either because when they get $50 from me to take Katie to the movies and dinner. You can bet that I shall make small talk with Katie and ask her how it was...  It wont be "an interrogation" it will be "small talk from the cool parent" in the vein of "So what did you guys see? Im looking for a good scary movie for Mrs DomAviaitor and I? Oh yeah was it dumb? Shit that sucks, theres no good zombie flicks any more.  Oh yeah you went to the Pasadena Hollywood 20 huh? Cool only $5 for the early show huh? Damn, Ill have to try that one we usually go down to Clear Lake... You guys eat near there? I dont remember whats out that way... Oh LaPorte huh? Great I love Mama Mias too, they make the best calzone.. Was Heather working? Shes so cool - ask her about the time Mrs DA accidentlly dropped a whole pitcher of beer on my lap." By the time Im done "making totally innocuous small talk" she will have unknowing told me that he spent about $44 leaving him with six bucks for the nuclear reactor fund and she will think that DA is the coolest dad in the world, cause he likes zombie flicks, listens to her, knows heather, got doused with beer, etc.   So, when he starts running with the wrong crowd you can BET that little Katie will come to me to voice her concerns...

The problem is people not paying attention to what goes on in their household....  I will run a tight ship with the intelligence capabilities of the fucking CIA... Ill get assets in the school, in the pizza shop, on the local PD, etc....

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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/18/2008 11:24:14 PM   
Vendaval


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

I think its all psychobabble bullshit. People do fucked up things because they are fucked up... Not being included in someones clique isnt cause for a spree killing.

"Being fucked up" is a slang phrase for "needs therapy".

The problem is that fucking parents these days think that kids have rights, and should be secure in their property and papers, etc... When I have kids Ill toss their room whenever I fucking feel like it.

Which will cause a great deal of resentment and anger.


Diary? Yeah good hunny keep a diary until you are 18 it will tell me when I need to kick your ass or drag you off for treatment.

Not respecting your unmentionables diary or journal will quickly destroy communication between you and them.

Youre being a good girl sweety well thats nice, but the day Im doing the laundy and my UV light glows on your panties is the day youre going to the doctor and getting your first depo shot.

This scenario is just plain creepy.  And whether or not a female receives a Depo-Provero shot is HER decision since it is HER BODY.


Lie all you want, but the UV light doesnt. Wanna be sure - well lets just see if the spot turns purple... (I did that with my cheating ex. Sorry bitch the lab says thats semen and the DNA excludes me... Your personal property is at the following self storage and I have booked you a hotel room and prepaid for the next week. After that you are on your own.)

Why would have a spouse that you do not trust?  Why keep any lover or partner in your life who creates this much drama and suspicion?  Makes no sense to me.



_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/18/2008 11:47:19 PM   
MstrObjectmaker


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Man!!!!

I've never read anything quite so weird in all my life!!!

You are the definition of hopeless control freak in my opinion.

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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/19/2008 12:39:53 AM   
DomAviator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

I think its all psychobabble bullshit. People do fucked up things because they are fucked up... Not being included in someones clique isnt cause for a spree killing.

"Being fucked up" is a slang phrase for "needs therapy".
 
And half of the people in therapy are nuttier than they were before the shrink started messing around in their head.


The problem is that fucking parents these days think that kids have rights, and should be secure in their property and papers, etc... When I have kids Ill toss their room whenever I fucking feel like it.

Which will cause a great deal of resentment and anger.

Which they can deal with by moving out at age 18 (as I did) when they will be free to do whatever the hell the want to do. However, had the Columbine kids parents followed my "no contraband in my house" policy, they would have discovered an arsenal of weapons, explosive, and detailed written plans for the attack. On an even less dramatic note than Columbine, how many parents wish they found the drug paraphenialia BEFORE they got the call from the medical examiners office? What happens in your own apartment or college dorm room is your business, but my house = my rules. Parents arent supposed to be friends they are supposed to be parents.

Diary? Yeah good hunny keep a diary until you are 18 it will tell me when I need to kick your ass or drag you off for treatment.

Not respecting your unmentionables diary or journal will quickly destroy communication between you and them.
 
It will also provide you advance notice if they have detailed plans to shoot up the school and a "hit list" as the Columbine kids do. OR it will provide you notice that they are buying radioisotiopes to build a fucking nuclear reactor in the shed as the radioactive boyscout did. OR it will tell you that they are doing all sorts of bad things that they shouldnt be doing, which you can then head off as a parent before you get called by the police, coroner, or hospital. Again, parents arent supposed to be friends they are supposed to be parents. It is a parents job to keep someone who is essentially a skull full of mush from irreparably damaging themselves before they reach the age of majority. 


Youre being a good girl sweety well thats nice, but the day Im doing the laundy and my UV light glows on your panties is the day youre going to the doctor and getting your first depo shot.

This scenario is just plain creepy.  And whether or not a female receives a Depo-Provero shot is HER decision since it is HER BODY.
 
She gets reproductive rights when she can afford to feed, clothe, and house her progeny. If it is going to be "daddy...." then Im a stakeholder.  If she doesnt want the depo shot then she can A) Become celibate or B) Move the fuck out of my house because - I aint raising watching grandkids while the little princess goes to highschool. Again, if parents were more proactive instead of sticking their head in the sand and saying "not my little angel" a number of issues ranging from teen pregnancy to death by AIDs/ Hep could be headed off. If the panties glow - safe sex is not being practiced and thus russian roulette is being played. Have a dozen kids if you want, once you are married, and in your husbands home rather than mine.. Yet again, a parent isnt a friend they are supposed to keep you from fucking up your life.... An unplanned pregancy can mean the difference between a life as an astrophysicist and being a bagger at HEB. An HIV infection can make you dead before you are old enough to buy a beer.



Lie all you want, but the UV light doesnt. Wanna be sure - well lets just see if the spot turns purple... (I did that with my cheating ex. Sorry bitch the lab says thats semen and the DNA excludes me... Your personal property is at the following self storage and I have booked you a hotel room and prepaid for the next week. After that you are on your own.)

Why would have a spouse that you do not trust?  Why keep any lover or partner in your life who creates this much drama and suspicion?  Makes no sense to me.
 
Note the portion that says "your personal property is at the following self storage and I have booked you a hotel room and prepaid for the next week"? I didnt "keep her in my life" I "got my grounds" to file in NY which is NOT a no fault or community property state and which requires grounds for divorce. We had this conversation once she discovered her key no longer worked....



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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/19/2008 12:43:24 AM   
Termyn8or


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jlf you just seem to prove my point inadvertently. Some people are just bad and need to be put down like a rabid dog.

Yes my hard hard ways nobody can accept because they are too radical and a few other issues the gummi bears have with it. But I will just let time go by and threads like this one will prove my point again and again until the sheeple get it. And really, I could be silent and it will still happen.

I can stop me, but I can't stop others. so keep it comimg.

T

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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/19/2008 1:59:51 AM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

jlf you just seem to prove my point inadvertently. Some people are just bad and need to be put down like a rabid dog.

Yes my hard hard ways nobody can accept because they are too radical and a few other issues the gummi bears have with it. But I will just let time go by and threads like this one will prove my point again and again until the sheeple get it. And really, I could be silent and it will still happen.

I can stop me, but I can't stop others. so keep it comimg.

T


So, what you are proposing is that when the behavior patterns begin to manifest themselves, which is usually before age ten, we take the child out and execute it?

The fact that there are treatments for some of these conditions would, it would make better sense to treat these individuals.

As for those who are either in jail now or may show up at a later date, considering that all of these conditions fall under the broad range of insanity, it would mke more sense to study these people as long as possible prior to execution.




_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/19/2008 7:22:39 AM   
Sanity


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Joseph Duncan. He was on parole as a level 3 sex offender, if you can believe it - in other words, a known convicted serial child rapist, and he's awfully notorious in this region. He used a gun in his latest crime spree but the OP is valid in especially his case in that he should never have been let out of prison for his prior crimes in the first place.


quote:

I can't remember his name, but that guy who killed that family in Idaho was a convicted sex offender. He had been blogging for quite awhile about what he was thinking. Obviously, someone should have been paying more attention to that guy. Of course, I am of the opinion that violent sexual predators should never be let out of prison.


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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/19/2008 8:27:58 AM   
NeedingMore220


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Nor would I advocate incarcerating individuals as soon as any of the behavior patterns make themselves known.  If society is partially to blame for this behavior, then society must find a way to prevent or treat such behavior.

The problem as I see it is that society finds it easier to blame the tool of the crime or the individual rather than look at any other stimulus that may have contributed to the problem.


I have so much I want to say on this topic, but my little one is clamoring for me to go out with her and get bagels, so briefly .... 

Society is not to blame for little Johnny being picked on.  Perhaps my son was nice to Johnny and Johnny was a doofus and didnt' know how to respond, so my son left him alone.  Perhaps Johnny's parents should have taught him how to handle himself better, OR if he truly had issues socializing, gotten him the help he so desperately needed and not swept it under the rug.  The resources are there in the schools.  Non-bullying posters up everywhere.  Everyone knows it's wrong.  Does it exist?  Of course - because we're human.  Johnny's parents should have shown him how to stand up to the bully.  Perhaps they should have gone to the bully's house and handled it with the parents.  Perhaps by high school Johnny should have grown a pair and found SOME group of friends that don't wear long black coats and not decided to be an outcast. 

Sometimes Johnny is just a weird little kid who is wired differently and needs to be watched carefully by his parents, but sometimes they shirk their duties because it's easier to ignore the fact that their kid is a weird little kid and needs their extra help. 

As for looking at stimulus - if you're referring to bullying, I can tell you exactly what schools talk about to the kids these days - character, nonbullying, friendship, respect ... all these great grandiose ideas that should be taught at home and supported at school, but sometimes it seems vice versa. 

I hate when "society" is blamed for other people's issues.  Personal responsibility is a biggie with me.  I've handled bullying issues over the years, and taught my son how to handle them - and it simply will not happen. 

OK, off to get bagels.  LOL  I had to get that off my chest. 

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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/19/2008 11:31:06 AM   
stella41b


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Murder is a crime, and like any other crime it takes place because of (1) reason, (2) motive and (3) opportunity.

Social exclusion is often a factor for it may increase the likelihood of crimes committed. But it's important not to generalise. If you want to generalise you can just as easily say that most people affected by social exclusion don't commit crimes.

Then again you have the case of Harold Shipman here in the UK, middle class upbringing, family, children, and a very popular family doctor. It is still unknown how many women he murdered over his years in practice, as some of his victims were cremated but it's estimated that it is around 300 women. He murdered them because he wanted to watch them die slowly, and being a doctor with access to medication and also the medical records of the patients he murdered he had ample opportunity.

With murder there is also a degree of risk calculation as to the consequences, but I haven't gone into this because the OP specifically mentioned spree killings and I am assuming that this risk calculation is of lesser importance.

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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/19/2008 11:35:06 AM   
ArtCatDom


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Most "weird" and antisocial children never engage in violent crime and will never come even close to going on a spree. Forcing them into counseling and devoting focused attention to their oddities will only serve to alienate them further and make them feel more antisocial and disconnected from the people around them. They already feel "different" and unloved. Shining a spotlight on their "weirdness" is hardly a sensible solution.

Establishing an authortarian household where your children and their things are subjected to a random search will generally inspire them to become more secretive, finding better ways to hide their things and their friendships. Trying to put the foot down when they're hanging with the "wrong crowd" usually means they will spend *more* time with that crowd and go to great lengths to obscure their true friendships. *Some* kids buckle down under the pressure of authority, but they're no better off. The common stereotype about the Catholic school kid becoming a "wild child" is rooted in real-life behavior.

Assuredly, ignoring problems is not a viable solution either. Letting things fester and grow will obviously lead to bad results. There is no simple solution, but treating them like human beings and not looking for the easy fix is a good place to start.

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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/19/2008 11:49:13 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

not looking for the easy fix


Best idea in the whole thread.

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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/19/2008 11:58:28 AM   
Vendaval


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DA, the level of distrust and paranoia and control freak behavior expressed in your methods of dealing with previous partners and potential progeny is a sad statement of how your mind works.
 
I have assisted in the raising and therapy of numerous persons of varying ages and know that communication and mutual respect are the basis for any relationship, whether that be working, friendship, familiar or sexual.  The best parenting requires that the parents and unmentionables talk to and listen to each other.  The parents remain parents yes, they make the decisions.  But the unmentionables are not mindless automotrons.
 
Your methods of tossing rooms and sending panties to the lab for semen stains reminds me of a famous Frank Zappa quote stated before the US Congress in regards to censorship, (see also the PMRC and Tipper Gore in the '80s), "This is like trying to cure dandruff by decapitation!"




_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to DomAviator)
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RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/19/2008 2:17:24 PM   
NeedingMore220


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom

Most "weird" and antisocial children never engage in violent crime and will never come even close to going on a spree. Forcing them into counseling and devoting focused attention to their oddities will only serve to alienate them further and make them feel more antisocial and disconnected from the people around them. They already feel "different" and unloved. Shining a spotlight on their "weirdness" is hardly a sensible solution.


I didn't say to force them into counseling or focusing attention on their oddities. And I completely agree that most weird and antisocial kids don't commit violent crimes.  That's another problem I have with this thread.  I wouldn't force them into anything.  I would, however, be sure that they had the attention and care they needed (I'm sure some are abused - I can think of a few instances where I've either known or suspected that).  And say the kid is into reptiles - really, really into 'em ... the parents should foster that interest and take them to places where they feel comfortable and realize that they're not that unusual - like join a zoology club or something.  Basically ... find the kid's niche.  Sometimes kids need help doing that.  Are the chess club kids going to be in the popular crowd?  Nope.  But they will have friends within the chess club.  It's all a matter of making the child happy and feel fulfilled within himself, and that takes parental involvement and understanding - not making Johnny play the outfield where he's daydreaming of lizards because the parent thinks that's the right thing to do rather than actually listening to their kid.

quote:

Establishing an authortarian household where your children and their things are subjected to a random search will generally inspire them to become more secretive, finding better ways to hide their things and their friendships.


Possibly, yes, but if done subtly it can be effective.  If my teenager suddenly becomes moody and withdrawn and nasty ... I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't check his room for drugs.  Just one example.  Another example - in his room my son left his computer open the other day and on the screen was a naked pic of one of his friends ... a girl.  What am I to do with that info - do you think her mother would want to know how her 16yo is exposing herself online?  How about my son ... do I talk with him about the friends that he forwarded that picture to about the harm he's doing her?  Damn straight I flipped through his emails while I was there - was there anything incriminating?  Nope, but if there had been I'd have to deal with it.  It's called being a parent. 

quote:

Trying to put the foot down when they're hanging with the "wrong crowd" usually means they will spend *more* time with that crowd and go to great lengths to obscure their true friendships.


Nope, again.  I'm in charge.  He wouldn't be going to the parties that he does if I didn't know the kids he was with.  If he started hanging with the potheads, damn right he wouldn't be there.  That's my  job.  To protect him - teenagers are really dumbasses sometimes, and it's my job to guide them through so they don't wind up with irreparable damage.

quote:

There is no simple solution, but treating them like human beings and not looking for the easy fix is a good place to start.


I absolutely agree with you.  There are many gray areas and parents have to have the wisdom and the nerve to figure out where those are and to cross into them sometimes to protect their kids. 

And all that being said, I still think the ones who want to be mass murderers are just wired wrong and are going to do it anyhow. 

(in reply to ArtCatDom)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the pro... - 7/19/2008 2:19:47 PM   
NeedingMore220


Posts: 615
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval
I have assisted in the raising and therapy of numerous persons of varying ages and know that communication and mutual respect are the basis for any relationship, whether that be working, friendship, familiar or sexual.  The best parenting requires that the parents and unmentionables talk to and listen to each other.  The parents remain parents yes, they make the decisions.  But the unmentionables are not mindless automotrons.


Thanks for the Zappa quote - that made me laugh!

One point you're missing is that sometimes kids don't talk to their parents.  Even in the best parent/kid relationships, they become secretive and don't like sharing the inner workings of their personal lives with their parents at times.  You can trust your child to tell you everything, but they're not going to.  And if there are issues popping up, andd they're not talking, then you have a problem. 

(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 40
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