RE: Internal Enslavement (Full Version)

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Leatherist -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/26/2008 9:35:42 PM)

It's amazing, how much the signal to noise ratio clears-just by hitting a couple of buttons. [:D]



MadRabbit -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/26/2008 10:02:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteFox77

In a way what you are saying about the site is 100% true.  If you read the site and disregard what it says from a literal point of view, and reinterpret it to say what you want it to say based on your own experiences and emotions, it's a great site.  Of course that also means that the site has nothing to do with what the author of the site actually said, and that it means something completely different for each person that reads it, so I guess then it's only a great site if the individual reading it wants it to be a great site.


And yet still no examples that clearly depict this "literal point of view" you have been trying to pass off here.

Maybe...because...everything I have said about what is written on that website is accurate and not merely a subjective creation of my own design?

Show me one quote that proves the website is advocating unethically forcing people to stay in abusive relationships.



HeavansKeeper -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/26/2008 10:21:51 PM)

So... Are we going to play fair now, or are we calling it - Time of Death: 1:21 AM EST?



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 7:08:07 AM)

I think it is dead. Just let it lie. I have always found it humorous when logic is used to explain the workings of the human mind and emotions.



Leatherist -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 7:11:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I think it is dead. Just let it lie. I have always found it humorous when logic is used to explain the workings of the human mind and emotions.


One can use a form of emotional logic to deal with it-but it certainly does not work along scientific lines..



tsatske -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 7:27:43 AM)

I had to go away and, oh, work and stuff. (new job! [sm=yahoo.gif]
That gave me time to think about this some, though. And this is the great epiphany I came to. (edges of your seats? good...)

We, or I, at any rate, have gotten caught up in an argument off to the side of the issue. The issue is, 'is I.E. inherently immoral because the goal is to make a slave 'incapable' of leaving of her own free will.'

And The White Fox came along and said - what if, somewhere, some slave is held in perfect I.E., and is miserable, and hates her existence, and wants to leave, and just can't. And off we were. Arguing rather it is moral for people to make choices that take away their own right to make choices - arguing rather perfection is impossible - ect, ect. I don't mind, they are all good, fun debates.

But, it suddenly hit me - as an I.E. slave who is active in that lifestyle and communicates with others like me (not getting back to the I.E. perfection argument, that's not what I am talking about) -
You have missed an essential point of I.E. And maybe you will acknowledge this point and still be against it as a concept, but I think it is important to understand - if 'I.E. perfection' were to be reached - WHY the slave couldn't leave.

Because she becomes fundamentally incapable of wanting to leave. Incapable of not wanting what Master wants. Incapable of being anything but deliriously happy in her enslavement.

Yes, I know, we are back to a perfect model again. But I speak with I.E. slaves who have accomplished this goal much more than I have (and I have to tell you, I am a pretty sickeningly sweet saccharinely happy little slave slut), and this is NEVER about them being unhappy. If they are unhappy, discontent, unsatisfied, they are NOT in I.E. - well, not to the level we are talking about. If they are unhappy, the whole I.E. thing is not working, and they would be able to walk away.

Will they walk, over a passing moment of dissatisfaction? of course not - because I.E. is a goal. They just acknowledge that they are not doing it so well, right now, work on it and move on. Truly - my lists and groups are full of slaves going 'Master wants me to XYZ. This is hard for me. How can I do this with joy? How can i internalize joyful acceptance, instead of just obeying?' This is very different from the questions you see on here - 'Master wants me to XYZ. Do I gotta? is Master bad? will you all back me up so I can tell him so?' These slaves obey - but they don't consider this thing you are asking about - unhappy obedience - to be I.E. It is, in essence, the antithesis of I.E. If I am in I.E., it means I am not just consenting, I am joyful. I.E. is about the inability to pull away from Master, the inability to be repulsed by His vision for us, the inability to want what he does not want me to want, the inability to NOT want what He wants for us - the inability to be anything but joyfully enslaved.

You can, of course, tell me I am wrong, but this is not just my interpretation, this is the conversations that go on in I.E. slaves, constantly. Maybe I.E. Masters don't talk about it quite as much, but it is there. So, if you accepted that THIS is what is meant by 'incapable', that THIS is what I.E. means - would you still find it inherently immoral, as an act of taking away my free will? (remembering that all I said earlier is also true - I entered of my free will, I work, of my free will, daily, to grow towards it and achieve it, ect.)



WhiteFox77 -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 8:18:18 AM)

"Yes, I know, we are back to a perfect model again. But I speak with I.E. slaves who have accomplished this goal much more than I have (and I have to tell you, I am a pretty sickeningly sweet saccharinely happy little slave slut), and this is NEVER about them being unhappy. If they are unhappy, discontent, unsatisfied, they are NOT in I.E. - well, not to the level we are talking about. If they are unhappy, the whole I.E. thing is not working, and they would be able to walk away."

And that is why I say the site in question isn't a good example of I.E., because it doesn't say it that way.

From the portion of the FAQ on:  But how can you claim that literal slavery is possible?
"the bond between the submissive and her master becomes sufficiently strong that she can no longer break it herself, and she has then been enslaved."

It does not say: "she can no longer break it herself so long as she remains general happy in the relationship".
It does not say: "she can no longer break it herself so long as her owner is not generally abusive to her."

The way the site puts it once the process (and yes it does refer to it as a process in several places) of internal enslavement is complete, the slave is never capable of leaving on her own again.

So I'm going to stand by my appraisal of the site in question being a bad site to use as a guide to I.E.




KnightofMists -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 8:29:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteFox77

"Yes, I know, we are back to a perfect model again. But I speak with I.E. slaves who have accomplished this goal much more than I have (and I have to tell you, I am a pretty sickeningly sweet saccharinely happy little slave slut), and this is NEVER about them being unhappy. If they are unhappy, discontent, unsatisfied, they are NOT in I.E. - well, not to the level we are talking about. If they are unhappy, the whole I.E. thing is not working, and they would be able to walk away."

And that is why I say the site in question isn't a good example of I.E., because it doesn't say it that way.

From the portion of the FAQ on:  But how can you claim that literal slavery is possible?
"the bond between the submissive and her master becomes sufficiently strong that she can no longer break it herself, and she has then been enslaved."

It does not say: "she can no longer break it herself so long as she remains general happy in the relationship".
It does not say: "she can no longer break it herself so long as her owner is not generally abusive to her."

The way the site puts it once the process (and yes it does refer to it as a process in several places) of internal enslavement is complete, the slave is never capable of leaving on her own again.

So I'm going to stand by my appraisal of the site in question being a bad site to use as a guide to I.E.




There is no question in my mind that the value of the Web Site is Questionable at best and maybe a road of self-destruction at worse for some.  The problem in my view of the site is really a question of poor understanding of Internal Enslavement, the lack of practicality and realism, flawed absolutes and most importantly thing things that are missing.  It does a very poor job of adequately expressing the concept of Internal Enslavement.  In fact, the biggest flaw in my view is too much focus on the External value of the Master and not enough understanding of the internal motivations of the slave themself.

Is the web site a good and powerful resource for the concept of IE.......... NO.. not in my opinion.

But... just because the site itself is poor... does not disqualify the concept of IE as being immoral or unhealthy.

They are two distinct issues.




KnightofMists -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 8:46:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I think it is dead. Just let it lie. I have always found it humorous when logic is used to explain the workings of the human mind and emotions.


One can use a form of emotional logic to deal with it-but it certainly does not work along scientific lines..


yeah... emotions are rational until they are irrational....



KnightofMists -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 8:56:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit


Show me one quote that proves the website is advocating unethically forcing people to stay in abusive relationships.


I don't believe there is any specific quote or statement that actually advocates the unethical forcing of people in staying in abusive relationships.

However,

When the site proclaims the process makes the slave unable to leave the relationship.. it opens the door to the possibility that the slave could be enslaved and then abused afterwards and unable to leave due to the apparent conditioning they went through during the process.

The claim itself is very much an absolute and in my view, incorrect.   I can appreciate that given the proper conditions, Internal enslavement will make it extremely difficult for a slave to end a relationship... but not impossible and very likely not without some serious consequences to their well-being.  However, Ending the relationship might just be the better of the two difficult choices.


edited to add...

Internal Enslavement.. is a concept, a tool for the bonding of people together into a relationship.  Like any tool... if not used skillfully, you could end up with some disasterous results.



tsatske -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 9:29:49 AM)

KOM - I happen to like this website very much. But then, I am not treating it as the Bible of I.E., or the I.E. version of the 'Gor books'. There are some fine essays, and some others i disagree with, and some stupid ones. Doesn't matter that much to me, i don't spend much time with the essays. There are other sites, some whose founding idea has a name other than I.E., where i like the essays better.
But this site has a set of boards where I can talk to other I.E. slaves. Where I can ask things like 'Master wants me to do this, and I find it repulsive. How do I learn to do it with joy?' If I asked that here, (and I like these boards here, too, as you can see by the paddle by my name), most people would say 'Hard limit! Don't do anything you find repulsive! Why would you try to change for Him?'
I am aware (and I am constantly amazed by how many people seem to have NO AWARENESS of this) of the differences in the differant communities i participate in. I don't submerge my own personality - as can be seen by my vigorous participation in this thread - but when I want to start a discussion, I start it in the community that makes sense to start it in. I don't ask people here about my religion and issues or questions i may be having with that, for instance - though i won't hesitate to discuss my religion if it comes up. But if i want to know how to better interpret the Lord's Prayer in my daily life, I don't start that topic here. Likewise, if I want to know how to better achieve a white space in my yoga, I don't ask on a conservative Christain board where I already know they think Yoga is from the devil.
Or - oh- here's a real life example. I went away, about a year ago, to spend a weekend in SC watching my youngest son graduate from Basic and become a Marine. The next Sunday, I skipped Meeting for Worship at my own little meeting house, and went to church with my sister instead. Her whole church is, basicly, made up of my Maternal family, and they all know and love my children.
I wanted to stand up during sharing time and tell a congregation of people who care about me that my son had graduated and was now a Marine. Now, the people at my meeting house know and love me and care for me, too - but what were they going to do if I made my announcement during sharing time there? They were going to come up to me, one by one, after meeting, hugging me and putting their hands on my arm and looking deeply into my eyes and saying, one after another, 'I am so sorry.'
That is not bad, it is just who they are. Since I know that, I chose to go where my message would be recieved with a bit more celebration.
So, I happen to think the website is good, is an important tool for I.E. slaves and couples; but it is not the I.E. holy grail.

Oh, and Epgah, since you were reading my posts here - [sm=threadhijack.gif] - would you please do something really odd and go read my profile all the way to the end? I am not saying you are the kind of guy who doesn't read profiles - I am saying, when you already know someone, you don't always go back and read their profile over and over. But there is new and important info at the end of mine, and, Master and I both have tried writing you, but collarme hates us both (there was a thread on that topic - it is apparently a known bug - but the thread was removed). Anyway, if you will follow the directions at the end of my profile, i would love to be able to enter into actual corrospondance with you.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 2:32:44 PM)

No it says more than just the snippet you posted. Here try the whole thing like I did to try and jump start this back in the right direction:

But how can you claim that literal slavery is possible?


The Enslavement Hypothesis is that there are submissives who have an overwhelming need to be possessed by a dominant. Given the right environment, the submissive can be coaxed out from behind the protective walls she has built during her life and made to expose all of her Self to her master. Among other things this requires that he creates an environment which is emotionally safe and in which her underlying character will be accepted, probably for the first time in her life. During this process, the bond between the submissive and her master becomes sufficiently strong that she can no longer break it herself, and she has then been enslaved. "
http://www.enslavement.org.uk/iefaq

Look at the phrase "given the right environment" as well as "requires that he (the owner) creates an environment which is emotionally safe. Those two phrases right there indicate you are unlikely to find this in an abusive relationship. An abusive relationship does not foster those things. You also ignore something an IE slave mentioned, if they are unhappy then they are not internally enslaved.

May I ask if you have ever used the process of Internal Enslavement? It used to be called Natural Enslavement. If not, then your apprasal is one of cursory knowledge at best. Kind of like someone reading Art of War and giving their opinion on whether it is good for tactics and strategy, but never having employed those techniques.


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteFox77

"Yes, I know, we are back to a perfect model again. But I speak with I.E. slaves who have accomplished this goal much more than I have (and I have to tell you, I am a pretty sickeningly sweet saccharinely happy little slave slut), and this is NEVER about them being unhappy. If they are unhappy, discontent, unsatisfied, they are NOT in I.E. - well, not to the level we are talking about. If they are unhappy, the whole I.E. thing is not working, and they would be able to walk away."

And that is why I say the site in question isn't a good example of I.E., because it doesn't say it that way.

From the portion of the FAQ on:  But how can you claim that literal slavery is possible?
"the bond between the submissive and her master becomes sufficiently strong that she can no longer break it herself, and she has then been enslaved."

It does not say: "she can no longer break it herself so long as she remains general happy in the relationship".
It does not say: "she can no longer break it herself so long as her owner is not generally abusive to her."

The way the site puts it once the process (and yes it does refer to it as a process in several places) of internal enslavement is complete, the slave is never capable of leaving on her own again.

So I'm going to stand by my appraisal of the site in question being a bad site to use as a guide to I.E.





Kirata -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 2:54:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

When the site proclaims the process makes the slave unable to leave the relationship.. it opens the door to the possibility that the slave could be enslaved and then abused afterwards and unable to leave due to the apparent conditioning they went through during the process.

Yes it's awful. Love can be like that too. Heh.
 
K.
 



sujuguete -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 3:17:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

No it says more than just the snippet you posted. Here try the whole thing like I did to try and jump start this back in the right direction:

But how can you claim that literal slavery is possible?


The Enslavement Hypothesis is that there are submissives who have an overwhelming need to be possessed by a dominant. Given the right environment, the submissive can be coaxed out from behind the protective walls she has built during her life and made to expose all of her Self to her master. Among other things this requires that he creates an environment which is emotionally safe and in which her underlying character will be accepted, probably for the first time in her life. During this process, the bond between the submissive and her master becomes sufficiently strong that she can no longer break it herself, and she has then been enslaved. "
http://www.enslavement.org.uk/iefaq

Look at the phrase "given the right environment" as well as "requires that he (the owner) creates an environment which is emotionally safe. Those two phrases right there indicate you are unlikely to find this in an abusive relationship. An abusive relationship does not foster those things. You also ignore something an IE slave mentioned, if they are unhappy then they are not internally enslaved.

May I ask if you have ever used the process of Internal Enslavement? It used to be called Natural Enslavement. If not, then your apprasal is one of cursory knowledge at best. Kind of like someone reading Art of War and giving their opinion on whether it is good for tactics and strategy, but never having employed those techniques.




I just wanted to add that not only does the owner have to create and environment where the slave knows she is emotionally safe, he also has to maintain it.

If a slave no longer feels safe, emotionally or physically, then IE is broken.  That does not mean that IE was never achieved in the first place, it just means that the owner has not done what is necessary to maintain it.  IE is not a "one time and it's done" kind of thing.  It requires constant vigilance from both parties to ensure that it is nurtured and continues to grow.

If an owner turns rogue and starts abusing his slave, he will upset the balance (or imbalance as it may be) in the relationship, and the slave will be able to leave.



barelynangel -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 3:31:07 PM)

Bingo, it amazes me when people are so focused on seeing the negative and convincing themselves it can't be done without it somehow being akin to abuse they forget to think rationally about the process that is needed to be created and maintained in order for something like this to exist that abusers are to selfish to create and more importantly maintain.



WhiteFox77 -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 4:56:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sujuguete
I just wanted to add that not only does the owner have to create and environment where the slave knows she is emotionally safe, he also has to maintain it.

If a slave no longer feels safe, emotionally or physically, then IE is broken.  That does not mean that IE was never achieved in the first place, it just means that the owner has not done what is necessary to maintain it.  IE is not a "one time and it's done" kind of thing.  It requires constant vigilance from both parties to ensure that it is nurtured and continues to grow.

If an owner turns rogue and starts abusing his slave, he will upset the balance (or imbalance as it may be) in the relationship, and the slave will be able to leave.


Could you please point out where in the site in question that is stated?



SaraZeal -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 6:01:11 PM)

http://www.enslavement.org.uk/iefaq

But how can you claim that literal slavery is possible?

at this heading



WhiteFox77 -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 6:13:22 PM)

Please re-read.  No where in that heading does it state that once I.E. is achieved the slave is capable of leaving on her own again at any time in the future.  In fact, it states the exact opposite.

Please point out the EXACT wording that states or suggests that continued enslavement is in some way dependent on the master's behavior.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 6:15:32 PM)

It comes from the implied use of the word create. If it is not maintained, then that environment is no longer in effect. I have been waiting for some truly valid, and deep questions concerning this, so I could spoon feed out a few things, but I believe they are needed to move the discussion along.

Maybe this essay should be read: http://www.enslavement.org.uk/principles

Here is a snippet:

Do no harm
Clearly harm is a relative concept. However, one must consider the possible consequences of one's actions to avoid unwanted effects, and by "harm" I mean unwanted, long lasting damage, to the mind or the body. In particular, do not underestimate the psychological damage that unpredictable behaviour or severe punishments can produce: all the way from an inhibiting nervousness around certain objects to full blown traumatisation, since these can impede or reverse the Enslavement process.



quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteFox77

quote:

ORIGINAL: sujuguete
I just wanted to add that not only does the owner have to create and environment where the slave knows she is emotionally safe, he also has to maintain it.

If a slave no longer feels safe, emotionally or physically, then IE is broken.  That does not mean that IE was never achieved in the first place, it just means that the owner has not done what is necessary to maintain it.  IE is not a "one time and it's done" kind of thing.  It requires constant vigilance from both parties to ensure that it is nurtured and continues to grow.

If an owner turns rogue and starts abusing his slave, he will upset the balance (or imbalance as it may be) in the relationship, and the slave will be able to leave.


Could you please point out where in the site in question that is stated?




SaraZeal -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/27/2008 6:19:39 PM)

quote:

But how can you claim that literal slavery is possible?   The Enslavement Hypothesis is that there are submissives who have an overwhelming need to be possessed by a dominant. Given the right environment, the submissive can be coaxed out from behind the protective walls she has built during her life and made to expose all of her Self to her master. Among other things this requires that he creates an environment which is emotionally safe and in which her underlying character will be accepted, probably for the first time in her life. During this process, the bond between the submissive and her master becomes sufficiently strong that she can no longer break it herself, and she has then been enslaved.


quote:

Could you please point out where in the site in question that is stated?


This is what I just did now.



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