RE: Internal Enslavement

RE: Internal Enslavement (Full Version)

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Alumbrado -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/23/2008 8:50:52 PM)
Why are would anyone with a satisfactory IE, or Gorean, or Old Guard etc. relationship be somehow threatened by anyone bringing up the possibility that not everyone will see it that way, or (heaven forbid) it may go wrong? There shouldn't be any logical reason to keep claiming that such negative examples either don't exist, are somehow an attack on the whole thing.

Leatherist -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/23/2008 8:53:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Why are would anyone with a satisfactory IE, or Gorean, or Old Guard etc. relationship be somehow threatened by anyone bringing up the possibility that not everyone will see it that way, or (heaven forbid) it may go wrong? There shouldn't be any logical reason to keep claiming that such negative examples either don't exist, are somehow an attack on the whole thing. Too many cons,not enough pros. Sounds like the usual mindless fear mongering to me.

WhiteFox77 -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/23/2008 9:40:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist This is like watching a dog chasing it's tail. A lot of sound and fury, going no place fast. You cannot prove it will ALWAYS happen, and I cannot prove it never will. I'm not saying it will always happen. I'm saying it can happen, and that for it to happen even once is an unacceptable situation. There for ANYTHING that creates the possibility of a person being in an abusive relationship and not being able to leave that relationship is inherently wrong. Unless you can prove it will NEVER happen, then the only rational approach is to avoid any situation completely tsatske: I understand what your saying about how what I'm quoting is the "ideal", and almost never happens. I just think it's a VERY dangerous ideal to aim for. For those IE relationships that don't work out, and the submissive does leave, well, by the definition on the site internal enslavement was never accomplished, so those were not IE relationships (see the section of the FAQ on: Can't people just decide for themselves what they are?). I also understand that a M/s relationship can greatly facilitate controlling of symptoms for people with mental/emotional health issues. My girl also suffers from mental illness (bi-polar type 2, adult ADD, panic attacks, social anxiety disorder, and several more things I can't remember off the top of my head). In a very real way our M/s relationship formed for the specific purpose of making it easier for her to deal with her illness. The structure of the relationship has had a huge effect on her ability to cope with her life. quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Why are would anyone with a satisfactory IE, or Gorean, or Old Guard etc. relationship be somehow threatened by anyone bringing up the possibility that not everyone will see it that way, or (heaven forbid) it may go wrong? There shouldn't be any logical reason to keep claiming that such negative examples either don't exist, are somehow an attack on the whole thing. There is a difference: In most other forms of relationship if something goes wrong and the submissive decides they don't want the relationship any more they can leave. In an IE relationship (as is defined by the statements on the site) leaving is not a possibility. Edited to ask a simple question of those arguing against me: Do you believe a slave who is in a relationship they believe is abusive and self-destructive should be put in a situation where it is impossible for them to leave the relationship? If your answer is "No", you are against IE relationships as is defined on the site that this whole thread supposedly revolves around. If you say anything besides "No" then our morals are different enough that we really have no baseline for argument.

leakylee -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 6:11:02 AM)
and isnt it just possible that because YOU dont happen to agree with extreme, because it doesnt make you all warm and fuzzy. you just have a need to get bent? lee

tsatske -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 6:22:34 AM)
quote: I'm not saying it will always happen. I'm saying it can happen, and that for it to happen even once is an unacceptable situation. There for ANYTHING that creates the possibility of a person being in an abusive relationship and not being able to leave that relationship is inherently wrong. Unless you can prove it will NEVER happen, then the only rational approach is to avoid any situation completely My mother, to my best guess, anyway, had sex with three men in her life, two of whom she was married to. Even though both her husbands were raging and abusive alcoholic assholes (not talking down about my beloved Dad here, he'd say the same thing about himself. He never hit her, but there is more than one way to abuse. He is now sober for over a dozen years, and a much better human being without the instant asshole additive). Yet, she managed to contract HPV and get cervical cancer. It was caught in time and didn't kill her, but cerical cancer kills women ALL THE TIME, so it could have. with ONLY having the most responsible sex you can imagine, my mother managed to get a deadly disease. This is not hypothetical, i absolutely assure you that other women have gotten this, and other STDs, with even less sluttiness. In Africa, women who have NEVER had sex with ANYONE but the ONE man to whom they are married, and that not till after the wedding - regularly manage to contract AIDS. Clearly, this can happen - it does happen. And it can happen here too. If my youngest sister, who was a virgin on her wedding night, and whose groom was too - well, what if her groom had had ONE previous lover, a couple of years earlier, and that lover had ONE previous lover, ect, ect - She could have gotten HPV, just like our mother. It is clear to me that the only rational approach is to NEVER have sex, of any kind, EVER. If even one person dies from this irresponsible act called sex, it just isn't worth it. Oh, I know, that is different. Because that is something YOU want for your life to be more fulfilled, were as I.E. is something YOU don't feel called to. But the examples are endless. certain factories make chemicals where, if working in the factory, a pregnant woman has a chance of having a malformed fetus. I mean, if it happens to even ONE woman - and women do get pregnant on accident, with all known methods of birth control - except total abstence, and they lie about that, or give in to spontanious breaking it, or don't understand what 'abstence' is ( a real problem, i lecture Christain Teenage children, and, surprisingly, others - even adults - on this subject all the time). The only answer is to refuse to emply women. (this was a real court case in a real factory, in a small southern town, in the 80's, btw) My point - no, it is not okay to ask me, (or, worse, think you should ahve the right to demand) to limit my activities based on the 'worst case scenario'. Is it okay with me if, somewhere, one slave finds herself feeling that she is abused, and no longer consenting, but can't find it in herself to leave? actually, yes - just like it is okay with me if my son, whose mother (me) is a Quaker, chooses to become a Marine and go off to war (where he now is). Just like it is okay with me if another son flies to HongKong a month after the Hong Kong goverment detained American citizens and was accused of torture. Just like it is okay with me if someone decides to climb a mountain, even though some people have died, and probably slow, unplesant deaths, making that same choice. All choices have 'worst case scenarios', and I believe people have the right to make choices about their life anyway.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 6:41:40 AM)
Not worth the extra words. Yes I would let me property leave, after a week to make sure that the decision was not a rash and emotional one. I would never put my property into a position that their value dropped. Yes they are meat, but that does not remove my choice to create them into valued creatures. quote: ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper If you choose to respond, answer this direct question: If your slave truly wanted to leave, would you let her?

WhiteFox77 -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 6:50:50 AM)
You are missing one component here. None of the consequences you list even come close to the consequence we're talking about. A person living the rest of their life in an abusive relationship where they want the abuse to end, but can't end. It may sound dramatic, but we're talking about something most people would consider worse than death. . The ability to decide how to live ones life is the kind of thing wars are fought over. quote: ORIGINAL: tsatske I believe people have the right to make choices about their life anyway. So do I. In fact it is one of the strongest beliefs I have. That's why I'm so against the idea of taking away a person right to chose to leave. Whether you do it by locking them in a cage of steel bars, or a cage of ideas and emotions, you are still taking away their right to choose. I believe you intervene when you observe someone taking part in behavior that is self-destructive. quote: ORIGINAL: tsatske Is it okay with me if, somewhere, one slave finds herself feeling that she is abused, and no longer consenting, but can't find it in herself to leave? actually, yes In that case our values are so completely different that we really have no base line for argument, because to me it is completely unacceptable for a PERSON (slaves are people too) to find themselves BEING abused without having the ability to choose to leave.

Leatherist -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 7:38:01 AM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjDy8fYJcuw [:D]

barelynangel -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 7:54:32 AM)
So let me ask you this -- do you stick your nose into extreme sadist rituals and such because they have a potential to harm a person wherein the person may not be able to make an informed consent during the execution of such concept IF the ritual turns into a concept of abuse because the guy loses control? Personally, i believe you are capable of abusing your girl based on her disorders because when she is caught up in the negative aspects of loss of control with those disorders she is not in a position to consent because her perceptions of her reality on many levels are not mentally stable so in and of itself what you have stated here is -- you have the potential to keep your girl if you so choose in a permanent state of mentally unstable based on her perceptions when her illnesses are not controlled, and you have the potential to abuse her when she is in this vulnerable state and keep her there if you choose because she wouldn't be able to consent. Now you can't disagree with this based on what you have said about this IE concepts. So i am presuming you believe fully that your relationship and the potentials it holds to have your girl in an abusive position for life if you choose because of her illnesses. But yet you make the argument that what you have with her is GOOD for her and what she NEEDS. So what's the difference between you and the Men in IE? We are just supposed to believe you are not the evil rotten bastard who preys on mentally ill women and try and say that this relationship HELPS her in her illness and you will never ever take advantage of same and abuse it to the point she won't really understand her perception of the world around her and she will believe she has not choice but to stay. Nope sorry i don't see it. Based on her mental illness she has the potential to become what you believe women in IE relationships have the potential to become. The potential for you to take full advantage and become an asshole and abuser to her and HOLD her to you because of her illnesses -- there is no difference in the scale of potential between your relationship with a mentally ill woman, and an IE relations. There ARE Men who would hold such a mentally ill woman in the name of M/s or D/s because of her illness and hurt her and abuse her and she would probabably not be able to get away because of his hold on her and he sould exploit her illnesses... but the same could happen with regard to a Man and woman in the "name" of IE wherein a Man instead of taking advantage of her mental illness -- instead takes advantage negatively of her needs for mastery and enslavement and yes exploits her just as you have the potential to exploit your girl because of her illnesses. Be careful because your arguments here are very well speaking that you and what you have stated and if what you believe of IE is true because of the POTENTIAL danger -- then you have talked yourself right out of the relationship you state you have with your girl. If potential was what mattered then honestly, no one could ever have a relationship with anyone because there is ALWAYS potential for harm and for that harm to esculate into a concept of which you speak. But that doesn't mean it does on the majority or even a small percentage. Yes bad things happen occassionally and things may get out of hand yeah the Men in IE aren't perfect they make mistakes -- but the MOTIVE is not what you speak it is -- much of IE is not because the MEN NEED IT, but because the woman NEED it and the Men are capable of providing it and enjoy it and want it. AND many of the women who are IN IE and mastered and enslaved the idea of leaving comes up in the YEARS they are owned i would say maybe MAYBE 1 in two years time etc. where she really questions her staying. Its the nature of the beast as the relationship is always changing and growing -- its not linear either. And i from what i see of M/s and D/s its a constant question many times and M/s and D/s relationships on average seem to last a lot less time than the IE relationships i know. but i have honestly never met an IE couple that has encountered this zombie/doormat concept wherein the woman is so zoned out of reality she doesn't understand her reality and that reality BECUASE of the MEN involved doesn't constitute the panick and overreaction you are spouting on. As in your own situation, we could say the same thing about you that you are insisting on here. But in my world, having been a woman who was held in slavery to the extreme IE is, i realize what the reality is and the actuality is. And to me, the MEN who are capable of this would not need to abuse or hurt or hold a woman who doesn't want to be there - AND IF IT DOES CHANGE and he does become a Man not in control, he is not capable of maintaining the mastery and enslavement and the woman gets back her self-determination and autonomy and she can easily choose to leave because she is no longer held and her needs are no longer being met. These Men keep women like this because of her value to him. A woman who is more concerned with getting away is not going to be valuable to a Man who continuously has to struggle to hold her to him. You have to understand the caliber of Men who choose to do this -- while you may think its a concept of abusers, its not, abusers would not have the patience to make his property valuable to him, an abuser would simply wish to destroy instead of master, he would use fear and negativity to scare a woman. A Man in an IE relationship uses himself and his ability to master and enslave to determine how a woman will exist in his life and then he uses that to increase her value to him. An abuser doesn't have that mentality. So either you are going to take a step back and realize you are comparing apples and oranges based on fear and potential of human nature, or you will continue to make this all about the bad guys who take advantage of the poor doormats who THINK they want this in life. I am trying to help you overcome your fear and release your shield of consent as if it is the end all be all and recognize that sometimes the concept of consent is the concept of so fully understanding when your needs are fulfilled that you don't WANT to leave - you can't leave it because if you do you will be doing yourself HARM even if you are having a fucked up kinda day or week in the relationship and want to throw in the towel at that moment. Take it or leave it, i have a feeling you are not going to be open minded enough to understand the comparison i have made here with regard to your situation and that of IE, but that usually happens when people are on soapboxes. If you always worried about the potential of being hurt, killed or heck harmed so badly you never are released from it -- you probably wouldn't or SHOULDN'T cross the street -- because if you get hit by a car, all of that COULD happen to you. Life is about living, and women in IE tend to find themselves thriving in how they are kept because of their needs. You either can accept that and find another place to police, or you won't. But you also haven't realized is that every individual IE relationship is as different as night and day usually from the other because the MEN are different, the women are different and they are individuals who simply exist until an umbrella of living a life in a semblance of same ideas. angel angel

leadership527 -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 8:34:56 AM)
Heh, this is why I'm only interested in this issue as regards myself and mine. A lot of other people do a lot of things that I don't agree with or think is SSC/RACK/etc. If asked, I'll offer up that opinion. But I'm not going to try to convince someone to change unless that person were a close, real life, personal friend and I felt the dangers were more than trivial (which in this case, I do). Insofar as Tsatske's clarification.... I'm down with that. So long as actual consent is still possible, even if the bonds of love and trust have been built to the place where it would take a lot for slave to change her mind, then I have no issues. A sensible person balances good against bad in the big picture. It's perfectly plausible to say, "Hey, this thing is happening right now that I'm maybe not all that keen on, but in the balance, the good outweighs the bad". Not just plausible, but sensible. So long as that decision can still be reached, then I'm fine. But as has been pointed out, that is not what it says on the site and I prefer to not reinterpret other people's writing. I disagree with it as written. I do not disagree with what Tsatske is doing and, in fact, am doing that self-same thing with my wife (or very close to it). While I do not encourage mine to think along the lines of "I can never leave" (and in fact, encourage quite the opposite), I also am fairly certain that makign that choice is going to become more and more difficult for her... not unlike how it's become more difficult for her (or I) to consider divorce as the years in our marriage continue to accrue good memories.

barelynangel -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 8:45:54 AM)
Hi Leadership -- most women in IE don't spend their days wondering if they could leave -- now and again it comes up but its never within the concept of will HE let me leave, its in the concept of will herself let her leave something she instinctively knows is what she needs, wants and thrives in. To me, if people in this type of relationship are concentrating on a woman worrying about IF she can leave that they are more concerned with concepts that shouldn't be the focus of such a relationship. This type of relationship really isn't all that THINKING THANG of right and wrong, correct, or what's going on -- it just sorta happens. I've recently told women who are slaves or want to become slaves that being in such a relationship isn't about being a martyr or misery -- its a concept they should thrive within and enjoy, and love being in because it suits them, it completes them and it fulfills their needs. Its not this big scary and omg continuation based on fear and loss of ability to think for yourself. Yeah there will be people who use the name to try and attempt concepts that are based on the wrong motivation, but it does in EVERY situation of relationship from vanilla to extreme S&M to Extreme M/s. Instead of taking things and blowing them out of proportion into the danger danger flashing red.... perhaps if you feel that strongly, people should take some time to interact and get to know people who actually LIVE IT. Experience is always better than making a decision about something because an article you read. angel

Kimveri -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 9:04:21 AM)
~FR~ You cannot remove a person's "right to choose". You can narrow the opportunities to exercise such choice. You can also make the consequences of exercising such choice so unattractive as to make that option least likely. To a person with ethics, one having a deep-seated urge for excellence & natural thriving for all persons, the "worst-case scenarios" of which you speak are highly improbable. No one should be deciding, for others that the risks inherent in their choices are "too great" to permit them to choose. But it's done daily -- "click it or ticket!" & "lock him up & throw away the key!" Ultimately, the only way to minimize risks is to maximize understanding of the choices, options & consequences involved. Any other action taken to minimize said risks is an infringement on the right to choose. As a Gorean, let me assure you, any slave seeking interaction within this home is lengthily informed, made aware over time & in all possible manners, of the full range & scope of her choice to commit to this sort of relation. Full disclosure, from both parties, is a must. Anyone with emotional (or other) instabilities would be unlikely to thrive within the strictures of such a relation & would be clearly, calmly & compassionately made aware of this, as well as the why, how & so on of the decision-making process. To do otherwise is, imo, to exploit & misuse one person's vulnerabilities while abusing one's own authority. Ultimately, if it's not of benefit to all involved, I don't know why any ethical, healthy, socially well-adjusted person would be involved. Your mileage may, of course, vary. ~Kimveri

WhiteFox77 -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 10:09:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel Be careful because your arguments here are very well speaking that you and what you have stated and if what you believe of IE is true because of the POTENTIAL danger -- then you have talked yourself right out of the relationship you state you have with your girl. Nice try. If what I stated here was the totality of the relationship that would be true, but it isn't. With a person who had mental/emotional health issues, the possibility of this kind of abuse does go up, as they are very susceptible to being controlled by those they trust (this includes their mental health providers as well as members of the family). That is why checks and balances need to be in place across the board. In our case if I ever devolved into some kind of creep, it would be completely impossible for me to hide what I was doing from the large team of mental health professionals and government workers that monitor her case. How could I possibly hide the abuse from three therapists (two of which meet with her when I'm not around and one who sees us interact together), a psychiatrist, and two social workers (one of which meats her at our house)? All of us are there to monitor the others. If any of us does something that any of the others feels is not in her best interest, it will get brought up. But based on the descriptions on the website that kind of monitoring is not used, and would be considered contrary to the point of IE. quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel You have to understand the caliber of Men who choose to do this -- while you may think its a concept of abusers. I never said that all the men that did this are abusers, or even that all IE relationships are inherently abusive. Arguments relating to the caliber of men involved are irrelevant for the reasons you already brought up, people change, and everyone is different. Remember the only argument I've really brought up here (again based on the description on the site) is the opportunity exists for a person to end up in an abusive relationship that they are incapable of leaving. quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel even if you are having a fucked up kinda day or week in the relationship and want to throw in the towel at that moment. You are thinking in terms of days and weeks, I'm thinking in terms of months, years and lifetimes. Is having a bad 10 years a good enough reason to "throw in the towel"?

ownedgirlie -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 10:53:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiteFox77 I'm not saying it will always happen. I'm saying it can happen, and that for it to happen even once is an unacceptable situation. There for ANYTHING that creates the possibility of a person being in an abusive relationship and not being able to leave that relationship is inherently wrong. Unless you can prove it will NEVER happen, then the only rational approach is to avoid any situation completely Based on this argument, people should not procreate. Because if they do, there is a chance they will abuse their offspring without anyone detecting it. And, last I checked, offspring, particularly those of a young age, do not have the ability, choice or knowledge to leave. Because there is no guarantee this will NEVER happen, the only rational approach is to never create offspring.

pettingdragons -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 11:24:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiteFox77 Breaking and rebuilding a slave: Why on Earth would a person get involved with another person if they didn't like them the way they were? Kind of like Legos!!! [sm=banghead.gif] As for the rest of the statement...not everyone wants love or anything close to that feeling in their relationship. this slave was broken down and conditioned at one time...then she grew into a different role of a Switch and lived on her own for a long time....now years later..she is slave again to a Master that she has grown to love....deos love make a difference in Our relationship...for her no...but then for her the meaing of love is trust, respect, caring and passion...this is not the same for everyone...and thats ok too...some of Our friends have different relationships then Us and we all get along just find. Its nice to have a different perspective on life sometimes....

WhiteFox77 -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 11:28:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Based on this argument, people should not procreate. Because if they do, there is a chance they will abuse their offspring without anyone detecting it. And, last I checked, offspring, particularly those of a young age, do not have the ability, choice or knowledge to leave. Because there is no guarantee this will NEVER happen, the only rational approach is to never create offspring. Invalid comparison. Children DO have the chance to leave. In an extreme case, they can leave at age 18. But they also have many opportunities thought life, even in pre-adolescents to take actions to stop abuse, and many do. Further (as a whole), the raising of a child does in intrinsically involve conditioning the child so they wont take actions to stop abuse. IE (as described on the site in question) does. ----------------- A clarification since people seem to not understand this. All my arguments here are based strictly on the original question that started this thread: quote: ORIGINAL: UBERMUNSCHIST http://www.enslavement.org.uk/ This is a new website that I just stumbled upon, I would like to know if anyone else has read any of the articles and if so what they think about them. I am not debating IE relationships as a whole or as they tend to happen in the real world (I'm sure there are people that consider them selves in IE relationships where the relationship is comletely healthy and free of the risks I've brought up), I am debating IE relationships as defined in the articles (essays and FAQ) on that site. With that in mind, statements such as "people should take some time to interact and get to know people who actually LIVE IT" are irrelevant because they have no bearing on what is said on the site in question (if anything they point out that there is a difference in how most people see/practice IE and how the site portrays IE, and are there for arguments against the site).

ownedgirlie -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 11:36:16 AM)
I spoke of offspring of a very young age. Show me a person in the single digit age range who has the choice and ability to leave. What I'm gathering from your post is that your "ANYTHING that creates the possibility of a person to be in an abusive relationship...is inherently wrong" and "...the only rational approach is to avoid any situation completely" isn't really as absolute as you have said. So you know, many offspring do not have the will or capacity to leave an abusive situation. I know I didn't. Therefore, according to your stance, there is a possibility, since I'm just one person in such a situatoin. Therefore my parents should not have had me. Huh.

WhiteFox77 -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 11:48:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie I spoke of offspring of a very young age. Show me a person in the single digit age range who has the choice and ability to leave. What I'm gathering from your post is that your "ANYTHING that creates the possibility of a person to be in an abusive relationship...is inherently wrong" and "...the only rational approach is to avoid any situation completely" isn't really as absolute as you have said. So you know, many offspring do not have the will or capacity to leave an abusive situation. I know I didn't. Therefore, according to your stance, there is a possibility, since I'm just one person in such a situatoin. Therefore my parents should not have had me. Huh. Do me a favor, if you are going to argue against what I say, quote what I actually say. "ANYTHING that creates the possibility of a person to be in an abusive relationship...is inherently wrong" "ANYTHING that creates the possibility of a person being in an abusive relationship and not being able to leave that relationship is inherently wrong" Two statements with VERY different meanings. Once again a key component of my argument was left out. The inability to EVER leave. To have to spend the rest of ones life in the abusive relationship.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 11:54:08 AM)
I quoted you in full the first time. The second was just an abbreviation. So then if an offspring can leave in 18 years, it is not inherently wrong to be in an abusive relationship, and therefore avoiding the situation completely is NOT the only rational approach? How long is this time frame in your argument? 5 years? 10? 15? 20? If an adult in an abusive relationship CAN leave at some point, given whatever stated time frame is ok with you, is it OK to seek out other rational approaches? What if someone in an IE relationship CAN leave in 18 years, just as an offspring could? Would your opinion change?

WhiteFox77 -> RE: Internal Enslavement (7/24/2008 12:11:10 PM)
Do me a favor a check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_fallacy "So then if an offspring can leave in 18 years, it is not inherently wrong to be in an abusive relationship." HUH!?! Where did anything I say even imply that. All abusive relationship are inherently wrong. You could interpret what I said as saying: Situations that could lead to abuse are not inherently wrong, so long as the person who might end up being abused has some method of eventually preventing or ending the abuse. "How long is this time frame in your argument?" To be honest, I haven't even thought about it. I'm have not, and don't intend to suggest an alternative. "If an adult in an abusive relationship CAN leave at some point, given whatever stated time frame is ok with you, is it OK to seek out other rational approaches? What if someone in an IE relationship CAN leave in 18 years, just as an offspring could? Would your opinion change?" That is out side the scope of the argument I'm making against the site this is (supposedly) the focus of this discussion. The descriptions of IE in that site state clearly that the submissive can not leave on their own.

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