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"Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 8:43:29 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		Good Morning, Afternoon, Evening - to all you voracious CM Readers:
This post is a public service brought to you by the makers of Boredom and Introspection.....
 
I once owned and wore this T-shirt with the words "Yes, I am one of THOSE people" on it. 
On the back of another shirt I owned was, "We the People, includes THOSE people too..."  or something like that.  I forget the exact wording. 

My personal way of looking at things now, as opposed to 5 and 10 years ago, has changed a great deal.  I'm going to hold off elaborating on this, for the moment, because I am hoping for answers to the following questions based off individual thinking, rather than a response to my way of thinking.  I'm perfectly willing to share, and answers to my own questions will be forthcoming later in the post.

To fascilitate communication (Not because I am trying to define anything in absolute terms) when I say "US" or "THEM" I'm referring to the perceived alternative lifestyle and mainstream philosophy that I've seen past posts refer to.  I.E. - WE are different, THEY discriminate against US, WE are persected......sort of thing.

Now for the Pop Quiz:

Question #1:  As an individual practitioner of whatever it is you do (TPE/BDSM or Gorean etc.), is it YOUR personal belief that there is a proverbial line in the sand drawn between the "Us" and the "THEM?"

Question #2:  Do you as an individual practitioner of whateve it is you do, feel you have been discriminated against?  Persecuted? 

I have quite a few more questions but I'll start with these two.

For those who don't consider themselves practitioners of WIITWD, but have a different way of looking at it/phrasing things, I'd welcome your thoughts. 

For those who will automatically insert that I have an ulterior motive for asking these questions, let me just say,......

of course I do.  I am an inquiring mind, I want to know!

Respectfully, Winsome

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 7/20/2008 8:51:47 AM >
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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 9:41:55 AM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		#1. Yes there is a line - between those of us who love parrots, and those who don't,   and those of us who eat chocolate  and those of us who don't, and those of us who cook and those of us who don't, and those of us who beat and get beaten, and those of us who don't.   everyone is defined by lines, those who aren't are called "Borg".

#2. Do i feel discriminated against or persecuted? - no, you can only discriminate or persecute someone when you know something about them that "society" as a majority disapproves of. And "society" knows nothing about my predilections.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 9:50:08 AM   
Shawn1066


Posts: 987
Joined: 10/7/2007
Status: offline 		Question #1:  As an individual practitioner of whatever it is you do (TPE/BDSM or Gorean etc.), is it YOUR personal belief that there is a proverbial line in the sand drawn between the "Us" and the "THEM?"

1.  No, I don't believe there is a "line in the sand" between people in the lifestyle and people of different tastes.  I think that's something people tell themeselves because they get a rush out of viewing themselves as different.  More power to them, but that's not how I look at it.  For me, at the end of the day, we're too similar to be considered any different at all.  I also think that the "Us vs Them" mindset has the potential to be a very harmful way of looking at things.

Question #2:  Do you as an individual practitioner of whateve it is you do, feel you have been discriminated against?  Persecuted? 

2.  No I have not

DV's Fox

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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 9:57:13 AM   
DominantJenny


Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline 		*holds up index finger* *assumes very bad fake Italian accent* Peoples is peoples. So? Yes. Is good.

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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 9:58:16 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I actually do have an US vs Them bias.
I absolutely cringe when I read
"I wish you well"
Often said after a your way is wrong and mine is right post, and ending with
"I wish you well"
I would so rather hear
"Piss off and die"  At least you know that is a reaction you might hear in real life.
LOL but other than that one phrase, I am cool with what others do, as long as they are not in my bed.
Kyst

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 10:00:54 AM   
StrongSpirit


Posts: 575
Joined: 4/10/2005
Status: offline 		1.  No line in the sand. The world is not black and white, nor even shades of gray.  There are colors, GLORIOUS colors.   There is no line in the sand, because people are all over the place.  Some are very close to what I do, some are far away, but there are just as many people in between us as those that are standing by each of us.

2. I've never personally felt persecuted by anyone.  I have felt discriminated against.  So what? It's a part of life.  People make snap judgments and act without thinking. I deal with it.

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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 10:02:55 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance


Now for the Pop Quiz:

Oh, Man... my word-kink is getting a workout today! WEE HAW!

quote:


Question #1:  As an individual practitioner of whatever it is you do (TPE/BDSM or Gorean etc.), is it YOUR personal belief that there is a proverbial line in the sand drawn between the "Us" and the "THEM?"


I think that it's all a line -- this huge spectrum from nothing to everything, and that everyone fits -- they may not fit where I do, but they fit somewhere.

quote:

Question #2:  Do you as an individual practitioner of whateve it is you do, feel you have been discriminated against?  Persecuted? 

I have. At times on this journey, I've felt put-upon, misunderstood, persecuted... after a while, I figured out that it doesn't really matter that much to me what other people think of me or what I do, or how I do it. It's hard to feel persecuted when you aren't really bothered by other people's opinions and don't take what they say personally unless you asked for their opinion... and even then, you weigh everything against your own mind and experiences first.

quote:

I have quite a few more questions but I'll start with these two.

For those who don't consider themselves practitioners of WIITWD, but have a different way of looking at it/phrasing things, I'd welcome your thoughts.


I am a kinky, twisted, sadistic, caring, outrageous,  generously-proportioned, infinitely curious, world-shaping god (goddess, if you happen to be picky about semantics)... and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

quote:

For those who will automatically insert that I have an ulterior motive for asking these questions, let me just say,......

of course I do.  I am an inquiring mind, I want to know!

Respectfully, Winsome


From one enquiring mind to another, have at...



_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 10:27:38 AM   
sambamanslilgirl


Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Question #1:  As an individual practitioner of whatever it is you do (TPE/BDSM or Gorean etc.), is it YOUR personal belief that there is a proverbial line in the sand drawn between the "Us" and the "THEM?"

yes

quote:

Question #2:  Do you as an individual practitioner of whateve it is you do, feel you have been discriminated against?  Persecuted? 

discriminated - yes, because for i'm in a ldr with Daddy and of course it's the mindset here that ldr's are solely based on wankering fantasy. that's the norm's opinion ...whatever, i don't care. i'm a happy daughter with my Daddy for 2yrs now. just because it didn't work for them, they don't have the right be so negative about the dynamic i'm in.

persecuted - at times because i don't "act" or "sound" as i should especially here.

_____________________________

...2011 - year of the fabulous rock star life ...and i do it so well...


...announcing Mr. & Mrs. British Petrol ...yeah, marrying into oil is slick business...

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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 10:29:05 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I actually do have an US vs Them bias.
I absolutely cringe when I read
"I wish you well"
Often said after a your way is wrong and mine is right post, and ending with
"I wish you well"
I would so rather hear
"Piss off and die"  At least you know that is a reaction you might hear in real life.
LOL but other than that one phrase, I am cool with what others do, as long as they are not in my bed.
Kyst


This actually tickled me, and I am still sitting here chucklng.  Mostly, because I know how often I've ended a post in "Best wishes in your search," or some such.  Though, I can honestly say I never once used it as a smoke screen for a "piss off and die" response.  I've never actually felt that way toward anyone.  NOW, I do sometimes respond with a simple "As you wish,"  which is my BDSM version of "Yes, Dear" or....ahem..a more polite way of saying, "Piss off!"

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 7/20/2008 11:00:17 AM >

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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 10:35:27 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantJenny

*holds up index finger* *assumes very bad fake Italian accent* Peoples is peoples. So? Yes. Is good.


(sighs) If only that had been a bad Sicilian accent and I'd have been waxing nostalgic for my adopted grandmother's wisdom.  But yes, is good.  Is very good.  Peoples, gotta luv em, cuz ya can't drag em behind your bumper. 

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 7/20/2008 10:37:01 AM >

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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 10:36:34 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Heh.. I use "sure hon"
I am fairly controlled in my own life and I have never said piss off and die.. however I have tossed a few people out the door, literally.
But those threads I have read where somoene is clearly insulting something and end with "I wish you well"  lol that really gets to me.  I know some gor type in real life and I never hear that from them when they are angry.
<g> but if they are I just tell them "sure hon" and go my merry way.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
I've never actually felt that way toward anyone.  NOW, I do sometimes repond with a simple "As you wish,"  which is my BDSM version of "Yes, Dear" or....ahem..a more polite way of saying, "Piss off!"

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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 10:38:11 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I think there are Us vs. Them mindsets all over the place, even within groups of people who are like-minded.  In other words, there will be Us vs. Them going on amongst Gorean folks, kinky folks, D/s folks, book club folks, photography folks, theater folks, and so on.  Competition runs rampant in life, wherever you go.  How much you let it affect you is where the importance lies.

I've been on the receiving end of an Us vs. Them mindset.  Then again, I've been on the delivery end of it, too.

If I've been descriminated against because of who I am and the life I live, I don't notice it all that much.  There is far too much goodness going on to focus on, than to be brought down by the other stuff.  Persecuted?  As in hunted down and harrassed over a prolonged period of time?  No.  The worst I have received as a result of my views as my Master's slave has been a few rude emails from others who also live a D/s life.  But I don't consider that persecution. 

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 10:40:54 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		To those who have responded, that I didn't quote - it wasn't because I didn't find value in what your wrote or that I agreed or disagreed with it.  I'll probably formulate more questions based off your answers, that I'll pose later (or on another thread) but I do want to thank you for taking the time to answer, and share your perspectives.

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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 10:46:00 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I think there are Us vs. Them mindsets all over the place, even within groups of people who are like-minded. 


I love that you brought this up,calling to thought that the "Us" vs "Them" mindset does not apply to antipodal points alone, but even among those of similar mindsets. 

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 7/20/2008 10:47:24 AM >

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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 10:48:18 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Question #1:  As an individual practitioner of whatever it is you do (TPE/BDSM or Gorean etc.), is it YOUR personal belief that there is a proverbial line in the sand drawn between the "Us" and the "THEM?"

Question #2:  Do you as an individual practitioner of whateve it is you do, feel you have been discriminated against?  Persecuted? 



#1. Abolutely not.   i look at it as a spectrum and everyone falls somewhere on it.  One can even fluctuate up and down the spectrum as life circumstances and desires change.  Once you draw a line in the sand, it puts those on the other side of that line on the defensive.  It implies you must choose which side of the line you are on.  It implies you cannot enjoy or do the things those on the other side do and enjoy for fear of being placed on the other side and being denied access to the side they were misplaced from.  Instead of fostering knowledge and understanding, it puts up dividing lines and holds people in opposition.  If there were a line, no vanilla guy could ever smack his gf on the ass during foreplay or yank her hair back in a moment of passion, nor could any dominant  guy ever send his sub roses or tenderly caress her hair while she ate some pasta he cooked for her.  i don't want lines in my world where i have to choose, there is no real freedom in that. 

#2.  No, but i understand the necessity of having to function day to day and keep a job etc so i don't expose all the elements of who i am to everyone.  It's impossible to expect people not to judge when they gain knowledge about you - i deny them access to that knowledge.   

< Message edited by velvetears -- 7/20/2008 10:55:42 AM >

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 10:55:12 AM   
WhisperSupremacy


Posts: 74
Joined: 4/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
 
I once owned and wore this T-shirt with the words "Yes, I am one of THOSE people" on it. 
On the back of another shirt I owned was, "We the People, includes THOSE people too..."  or something like that.  I forget the exact wording. 

My personal way of looking at things now, as opposed to 5 and 10 years ago, has changed a great deal. 


Ah, I've got much worse shirts than that.  I have one shirt that says "Sexual Predator" on the back,...and another that says "It'll hurt if you don't swallow, bitch"... and "Prepare to be raped of your fucking soul".  hahaha, I get a good laugh out of those.  I have a very sick and twisted sense of humor, and I get very flattering looks from people everywhere I go. 

quote:

ORIGINAL:WinsomeDefiance

Now for the Pop Quiz:

Question #1:  As an individual practitioner of whatever it is you do (TPE/BDSM or Gorean etc.), is it YOUR personal belief that there is a proverbial line in the sand drawn between the "Us" and the "THEM?"


Not really....  We are all human and that is something that will never change.  Everyone has a tendency to minorly discriminate everyone at some point or another in there life.  As a practitioneer, my lifestyle is private therefore there's not much of a line to begin with.   

quote:

ORIGINAL:WinsomeDefiance

Question #2:  Do you as an individual practitioner of whateve it is you do, feel you have been discriminated against?  Persecuted? 


I'm discriminated all the time as a general person,.... even when I dress nice to a job interview, they see me with long hair and I don't get the job.  Or I'm waiting in line somewhere and they insist on tending to me last because I'm the weird/goth/whatever looking guy.......So Yes, as a general person I am discriminated against all the time... But as a practitioneer in the bdsm lifestyle?  No, I've never been discriminated against because like I said, it's a private thing for me and I'll probably keep it that way.

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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 11:04:27 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Question #1:  As an individual practitioner of whatever it is you do (TPE/BDSM or Gorean etc.), is it YOUR personal belief that there is a proverbial line in the sand drawn between the "Us" and the "THEM?"
Of course... dozens of them.  The real question is how firm those lines are.  Clearly there are a ton of differences between "whatever it is that I do" and "whatever it is that THEY do" *laughs*.  Some of those differences are confusing, some concerning, some just different. 

Question #2:  Do you as an individual practitioner of whateve it is you do, feel you have been discriminated against?  Persecuted? 
Yes, a bit and No.  My personal observation is that the "community", such as it is, revels in drawing lines... gays here, straights there, bi's stand in that corner, tops here, bottoms there, goreans you're not welcome, the list goes on.  I've been on the wrong side of them some.  Minor discrimination not nearly reaching the level of "persecution".

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 11:42:41 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		No and no. Some people think having the lights on is a little too far out there. Others draw the line at including a chicken. It's a spectrum.

Since nobody's ever been invited to peer into my bedroom, how could they discriminate against me. I don't go around asking my friends if they got it in the ass last night. I can assure you that these types of conversations don't come up around here.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 12:26:36 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline
As promised:

Question #1:  As an individual practitioner of whatever it is you do (TPE/BDSM or Gorean etc.), is it YOUR personal belief that there is a proverbial line in the sand drawn between the "Us" and the "THEM?" Answer #1:  As an individual practitioner of BDSM, I do acknowledge that there is a proverbial line in the sand drawn between the "Us" and "Them" as people perceive them.  Before I begin to sound as if I'm being all magnanimous and condescending in "acknowledging" how others think, I'll share a bit.  When I was actively attending public munches, running a BDSM private membership dungeon, and otherwise actively involved with other practitioners of WIITWD, I tended to be much more "US" oriented. 
 
My life is much more private these days, and my experiences broad enough, that while I acknowledge that the lines exist, I opt not to take up permanent residency on any one side.  While I know that some (not all) view "THEM" as a collective mass of malicious intent - I see parts of myself in such a broad spectrum, that I no longer really see a clear delineation between "US" and "Them."  Because I once was more "US" oriented, I do tend to pick up on the verbiage, when others say "we" are discriminated against, "they" are being judgmental against "us" etc.
Question #2: (a) Do you as an individual practitioner of whateve it is you do, feel you have been discriminated against?  (b)Persecuted? Answer #2a:  I have had times in my past, when I (and my private membership group) was discriminated against.  Being much more private, these days, I haven't had the pleasure of that particular bias working against me. Answer #2b:  These days, those who practice BDSM and can claim genuine persecution, would seem to be in the minority. 


< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 7/20/2008 12:32:33 PM >

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RE: "Us" vs "Them" Mindsets - 7/20/2008 12:45:11 PM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline 		Here's a signature line for you:

"There are two kinds of people in the world. Those who believe that there are two kinds of people in the world, and the rest of us."

I find it more fruitful to speak and think primarily in terms of what people do, want, aspire to, and avoid (for instance), rather than in terms of what they "are".

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