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When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 4:18:29 AM

unfaithed

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I was reading another thread on crying during a session, and came upon this post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tandm

It is punishment for me, I think that HE gets sexual relief from it. He always says that it hurts him to have to punish me, because I am not doing what I am supposed to do, but I KNOW he has a very big "S" factor driving him in this lifestyle. If it is a punishment, no play for me, but for him. He allows me to have drinks to dull the pain from some of the things that he uses that I really have a hard time with at full senses(but very important for him and he wants to use these punishments). He has a few divices that I cannot take, to the point that I have to stop everything, so it helps a ton. I know that he will not hurt me to a point that it will cause perminate damage, but some things he does go beyond my pain scope.

To me, if a device or action was too painful that I had to stop all play, I wouldn't want to continue. If this happened repeatedly, no part of me would want to partake in that particular aspect of play ever again. I certainly would not want to try to dull the pain with alcohol and perhaps risk more damage being done, but that has already been discussed in plenty of threads. My question, though, is this:

At what point do you say it is too much? For the subs and slaves, how long do you go through with something that makes you hurt or uncomfortable (physically/emotionally) just to please your Dom/Master? And for the Dom/mes and Masters, how important are certain types of punishment that even when your sub/slave cannot withstand them that you insist upon using them anyways? This is going above and beyond what one considers their own "normal" pain threshold.

I thank you for your time in reading my post, and in advance for any opinions you may choose to share.
~unfaithed

Post #: 1

RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 4:37:35 AM

sfdrew

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I personally, as a slave would allow Mistress to punish me beyond what I am comfortable with or what is considered my 'normal' pain threshhold. I know that in the case of my relationship that if Mistress were to punish me that cruely that She would have a good reason for it. I also happen to have a romantic relationship with Her as well so I am more confident that She would only hurt me (really hurt me) for good reasons.

However, another point to consider is the 'safe word' element. Any Dom/me in my opinion that does not allow their sub/slave to have a safe word/safe signal is irresponsible because emergencies can happen while the sub/slave is bound/gaged and unable to call out for help. At that point some of the responsability gets put on the sub/slave to use the safe word and let their Owner know that it is too much.

In a true Master/Mistress sub/slave relationship the Dom/me has been given a great amount of power over their sub/slave and abusing it for their own enjoyment is morally questionable. I would never say that is 'wrong' for a Dom/me to abuse their power but it does make me think less of the Dom/me.

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 4:48:44 AM

ExSteelAgain

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Part of the art of bdsm is working the pain level up gradually for the submissive. Most of us do that unless we are doing something differently now and then.

As far as a submissive crying, that doesn't bother me. There are many reasons for crying and if one of them is it helps her take the pain, that's fine with me.

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 5:37:21 AM

metalmiss

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I don't have the option of stopping anything..
i trust that my Master knows me well enough to be aware of how much i can take and the effect any particular thing is having on me through my body language.
i agree if that trust was broken repeatedly, without thought for its effect on me, i would terminate the relationship.. In time that kind of treatment could be psychologically harmful.
Though i have to add that my Master regularly pushes me through experiences which i do not enjoy or i find uncomfortable, that i gladly endure in order to please my Master..
In my opinion, if it's always easy.. then it isn't submission. For me, the moments in which the pleasure is entirely His, are the most fulfilling.. As i have said, i just trust Him not to abuse that.

_____________________________

"The longing to serve, to submit, to abandon oneself sexually, emotionally, and physically makes one a slave either to a Man, a Woman or to God. Submission to that passion is divine degradation." - Dorothy C. Hayden

Owned by RavenMuse

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 5:44:17 AM

sfdrew

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quote:

ORIGINAL: metalmiss

I don't have the option of stopping anything..
i trust that my Master knows me well enough to be aware of how much i can take and the effect any particular thing is having on me through my body language.
i agree if that trust was broken repeatedly, without thought for its effect on me, i would terminate the relationship.. In time that kind of treatment could be psychologically harmful.
Though i have to add that my Master regularly pushes me through experiences which i do not enjoy or i find uncomfortable, that i gladly endure in order to please my Master..
In my opinion, if it's always easy.. then it isn't submission. For me, the moments in which the pleasure is entirely His, are the most fulfilling.. As i have said, i just trust Him not to abuse that.

I think that is exactly the point here. you trust your Master not to abuse You in that way because there is a trust between you. I understand that and I have a similar relationship with Mistress.

However, this is about when a Dom/me actually does start abusing the trust and power and what should the submissive think or do or what is their rights?

(in reply to metalmiss)

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 6:06:07 AM

LATEXBABY64

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when they start to cut off things

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 6:38:39 AM

DarkSteven

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This is why I do not believe that alcohol or drugs should be used during play. Pain is a body's natural defense mechanism. If it's screaming that the pain is too much, it should not be an indication to go forward (with the excpetion of inducing subspace of course).

The other thing that bothers me - a lot - is that the sub reports that her Master enjoys punishing her. If the punishment is enjoyable, the possibility of abuse is there.

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 6:43:31 AM

ownedgirlie

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If things become too difficult for me - physically or emotionally - I tell him. Then he gets to decide whether to keep going, pull back, or stop altogether. This does not just pertain to "play" but to every aspect of our relationship.

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 6:47:38 AM

zuki

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sounds like he is a sadist having his fun, but she is not a masochist and just taking her punishment because she thinks she should

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 6:53:31 AM

meticulousgirl

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my punnishments dont involve pain but, i suppose that if i wasn't a semi masochist than it could be.....

~meticulous~

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 7:06:51 AM

jade01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: metalmiss

Though i have to add that my Master regularly pushes me through experiences which i do not enjoy or i find uncomfortable, that i gladly endure in order to please my Master..
In my opinion, if it's always easy.. then it isn't submission. For me, the moments in which the pleasure is entirely His, are the most fulfilling.. As i have said, i just trust Him not to abuse that.

Thank you metalmiss

I have been trying to search for the right words or understanding in my head of the concept of pleasing Him vs my being selfish and being able to give everything over.
This is just how I see it as well, sometimes I have trouble putting words to the emotions...may be has to do with being new, not sure.

Again, Thank you
Sincerely,
jade

(in reply to metalmiss)

Post #: 11

RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 7:16:10 AM

DesFIP

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It sounds like he's using the excuse of punishment to break her limits. If I can't take something, that doesn't mean I can sometimes take something. The fact that she knows he's doing this not for a true punishment but as a trumped up excuse to break her limits and get himself off seems to me to be destroying trust in him. I doubt that relationship will be a long term one.

As far as getting drunk so you don't feel the pain signals. Bad idea IMO. Why doesn't he just hit her on the head and knock her out and then really hurt her while she's unconscious?

Since pain is not our reason for play, I do speak up. But play for us is sexual and if all I can do is focus on pain, I won't be turned on. Which for us defeats the purpose of it. He gets off on nipple torture but things I can't tolerate aren't used, and he wouldn't claim to agree that something is too much for me and then manipulate me to use those things anyway because his momentary erection is of more importance than me to him. He values my trust in him. He doesn't think with his dick.

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 7:24:05 AM

daddysliloneds

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when it's too much, i say it's too much and everything will stop. i'm not so hard up for a relationship or a play session that i will go beyond by own endurance level and suffer for the sake of another; been there, done that, and all it ended up getting me was resentful of the man that put me through all of that, to the point that i still to this day don't care if he lives or if he dies.

(in reply to unfaithed)

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 7:28:20 AM

metalmiss

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From: Croydon, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfdrew

However, this is about when a Dom/me actually does start abusing the trust and power and what should the submissive think or do or what is their rights?

i understand exactly what was meant.. Nowhere in the OP was "abuse" actually mentioned. i was clarifying that there are two ways that what was described could be taken & one of them was abusive.
Perhaps the person the OP was quoting has a particularly sadistic Master & exists in that relationship willingly to please Him.. So it would seem to me from reading her posts.
Who are we to judge whether what is described is abuse or not? Maybe thats just how their dynamic works?

So i would say on the contrary.. This post, from what i can see, is not about a Dom/me abusing trust or power.. The question asked by the OP is how far would you go to please your Dom/me when it is uncomfortable for you or beyond your pain threshold? And how important is it to a Dom/me to push their s-type in that way? To which my response was quite clear..

quote:

ORIGINAL: metalmiss

if that trust was broken repeatedly, without thought for its effect on me, i would terminate the relationship.. In time that kind of treatment could be psychologically harmful.

i am a slave and i am involved in a TPE dynamic, my only right is my right to walk away, if He gives me reason to do so.

The question you pose..

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfdrew

However, this is about when a Dom/me actually does start abusing the trust and power and what should the submissive think or do or what is their rights?

...to me is meaningless.. If there are issues of trust then there IS no relationship. End of. In my opinion the answer to that is the simplest thing in the world.

_____________________________

"The longing to serve, to submit, to abandon oneself sexually, emotionally, and physically makes one a slave either to a Man, a Woman or to God. Submission to that passion is divine degradation." - Dorothy C. Hayden

Owned by RavenMuse

(in reply to sfdrew)

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 11:34:45 AM

shiazn03

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i don't believe punishment should be enjoyable to either parties. unless the thrill there for the one in charge is that they have the power to inflict punishment. their slaves/submissives crying because of too much physical and/or emotional pain shouldn't be an enjoyable sight, unless, like everybody else says, they are abusing their slaves/submissives in a damaging way. punishment doesn't neccesarily mean it has to be overtly painful in order to be punishment. i know a Master that once punished his slave by having her hold up a smiley face ping pong ball with her nose against the wall for about 45 minutes, lol! how's that for painful, huh?

i believe that, if at any point, i no longer feel the full trust i felt at the beginning of a scene (or punishment), i immediately stop. i believe it doesn't mean i practice it though, lol! i did trust the Master i scened with at the time fully and completely and i suffered the consequences for him having messed up. so i have learned the hard way to firmly practice that belief and in no way make an exception for anybody.

peace out, all!

< Message edited by shiazn03 -- 7/21/2008 11:35:26 AM >

(in reply to metalmiss)

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 11:51:39 AM

sambamanslilgirl

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if a punishment makes me feel uncomfortable (physically and emotionally), then i would immediately stop it. imho, that would be abuse not punishment or play. i know my pain level and trust mine to adhere to my safeword once he goes beyond it. i feel a dominant should know their limits as well and not cross the line towards being abusive. yet, some do while others don't.

likewise when i'm punishing my pet. i'm careful not to cause him any injury or pain because both of us know his level of pain. sometimes i have to stop without him using his safeword because i know he's enjoying the pain too much.

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 11:55:49 AM

softness

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All about context ... the context of the activity ...and the role I ahve in that context .. Am I there as Sir's slave ... or as a bottom with a play partner? .. the answer will be different.

With DV I don't get a say in if something happens or not, or when it does happen .. I dont get a say in how it happens. What I do get to do is communicate with Him fairly freely. He then decides where to go from there .. and with DV it is just as likely He will continue as it is He will stop. Outside of punishment .. in play .. there is a wide gap between the levels of S/m play that I can enjoyably take .. and what Sir really enjoys dishing out. A lot of the time I am going to be taking more than I am comfortable with and suffering for Him. I am perfectly ok with that, my suffering pleases Him, and He is a responsible Owner ... He wont often abuse my desire to please Him.

With casual play partners ... it varies. I don't play no limits no safeword with casual play partners. There are limits partners .. I expect them to be adhered to .. If I say I want play to stop .. then play will stop. That kind of play is purely Top/bottom .. for fun release and recreation any power exchange is incidental. I am not prepared to suffer for a casual play partner ... suffer for myself yes .. but not for them. With them when something becomes to much, and I dont want it anymore .. I tell them to stop.

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 12:32:57 PM

Allondra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: unfaithed

And for the Dom/mes and Masters, how important are certain types of punishment that even when your sub/slave cannot withstand them that you insist upon using them anyways? This is going above and beyond what one considers their own "normal" pain threshold.

Since a punishment is not meant to be enjoyed, I have no problem using one that goes above and beyond my boy's normal pain threshold. After all, if I didn't get beyond that, it would just be play, and not punishment. That said, a punishment is usually brief and severe. Once the point is made, it stops. I don't see how drugging someone and then punishing them can work as a deterrent or lesson; they need to be fully present for the punishment to be effective.

Even though I am a sadist, I do not enjoy punishing my boy (thankfully I have not often had to). It is an entirely different dynamic from play, which we both enjoy.

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 1:52:18 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: unfaithed

At what point do you say it is too much? For the subs and slaves, how long do you go through with something that makes you hurt or uncomfortable (physically/emotionally) just to please your Dom/Master?

i have no limits and no safe word but am allowed to express how i am feeling. There is definitely a point (or points) during a scene when my tears are very real and there is a tone in my voice which really would stop a heard of elephants in their tracks a few kilometers away. if there is something in my mouth preventing crying out then it's in the way i writhe or kick or well you know convulse somewhat. Anyway that usually brings an end to the scene either to terminations full-stop point or just a rest break. It's amazing how quickly i can recover and just want it all to begin again.
i have been in scenes and watched sadistic tops go way beyond what i felt was safe and ethical for their slaves....but hey that's them and their turn on.

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 2:53:44 PM

Evility

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quote:

ORIGINAL: unfaithed
And for the Dom/mes and Masters, how important are certain types of punishment that even when your sub/slave cannot withstand them that you insist upon using them anyways?

We do not have a punishment dynamic but in the course of play there are several things I like to do that petrify her (I am more into fear than outright pain)... and that's a big part of the attraction to them for me. I have to really love the activity in and of itself to get off on it regardless of her reaction.

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Post #: 20

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