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RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/22/2008 12:18:38 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

~Fast Reply~

What I surmise from the artical is that the Department of Health and Human Services is promoting oral and/or anal sex or perhaps just a nice 'facial'. Yum! I'm not a doctor but I'm pretty darned sure you can't get pregnant from swallowing. Worked for me.

*yeah yeah yeah the usual disclaimers about being fluid bonded, use a condom, get tested, be aware that STDS can be transmitted etc etc etc

All well and good,as far as it goes,unfortunately young men and young woman since time began have found that once the genie is out of the bottle...the natural imperative of the species seems to take over,best to educate and make birth control methods available than to count on young lady's keeping their legs closed and their mouths open ,or young men being sated by the facial method

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Post #: 81

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/22/2008 12:29:14 PM

camille65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

~Fast Reply~

What I surmise from the artical is that the Department of Health and Human Services is promoting oral and/or anal sex or perhaps just a nice 'facial'. Yum! I'm not a doctor but I'm pretty darned sure you can't get pregnant from swallowing. Worked for me.

*yeah yeah yeah the usual disclaimers about being fluid bonded, use a condom, get tested, be aware that STDS can be transmitted etc etc etc

All well and good,as far as it goes,unfortunately young men and young woman since time began have found that once the genie is out of the bottle...the natural imperative of the species seems to take over,best to educate and make birth control methods available than to count on young lady's keeping their legs closed and their mouths open ,or young men being sated by the facial method

So the guys don't have any self control or responsibility when seeing open legs?

My concern with this, is that the birth control pill is for more than just birth control. But that seems to have been utterly lost in the fray.

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Post #: 82

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/22/2008 12:34:43 PM

eyesopened

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~Fast Reply~

dang.... can't inject humor... must be the heat

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Post #: 83

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/22/2008 12:39:09 PM

hopelessfool

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It wasnt lost on me camille. Im on birth control first because it controls my bleeding (stops it) The fact that it stops pregnancy is just a plus.

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Post #: 84

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/22/2008 12:41:53 PM

slvemike4u

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Camille ,I was just trying to be funny,believe my POV on men being responsible for the children they fathered would best be answered by the child I raised as a single father...or my previous post's on this thread either way works for me.

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Post #: 85

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/22/2008 12:54:59 PM

IvyMorgan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: uninterested5
So murder your unborn child if you want, just never lose sight of the reason why: Because it was too inconvenient for you to endure a few months of pregnancy.

Or because being pregnant endangered your life/health. Not all abortions are about "convenience".

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Post #: 86

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/22/2008 1:10:47 PM

kittinSol

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It makes me laugh when I hear people describe abortions as 'convenient'. They've obviously never been through one when they say that

.

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Post #: 87

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/22/2008 1:30:31 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

What will they think of next?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cristina-page/hhs-moves-to-define-contr_b_112887.html

This article was nothing but grandstanding and fear mongering... Look at the source and where it is posted. Go to http://www.hhs.gov/ and check the information for yourselves. Just in case you want to navigate straight to the sections on birth control http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/birthcontrol.html#cat57 The latest news or anything about birth control from the Department of Health and Human services, is on a study of benefits of IUD extend beyond contraception. http://www.acog.org/from_home/publications/press_releases/nr05-06-08-2.cfm

Don't believe me, look for yourselves.
Thadius

This is a leaked document:
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/emailphotos/pdf/HHS-45-CFR.pdf

More about this here.

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Post #: 88

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/22/2008 1:46:15 PM

PanthersMom

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reliable? tell that to my parents. they had me using condoms, my brother and sister using condoms and the pill and their last bilogiocal child using condoms even though mom's doctor assurred her that after ten years on the pill she was safe for a couple months. so no, condoms aren't reliable 100%. the only thing that is is not doing something that causes pregnancy. barring that, it's a crapshoot, which is why i say we need better forms of birth control. my ex and i chose sterilization, him by choice, me by medical necessity.

what many people are missing here is the simple fact that there are alternatives to vaginal intercourse. even something as seemingly safe as skin to skin contact without penetration can possibly lead to conception. it's not like there are no alternative activities that those who wish to avoid pregnancy can engage in that would be satisfying sexually while removing almost all possible means of impregnation. the fact remains, it is a personal choice to take the risk with most sexual activity. personal choices have consequences. if you don't want to live with those consequences, do not perform the action that causes them. i'm not perfect, i've been there, i've had an unintended pregnancy, and yes we were using birth control. condoms and basal body temperature methods actually, since i could not tolerate the pill. my baby died.

i was pregnant despite precautions, which is why i say better birth control methods were necessary. spermicides make many people, including me, break out; the pill cannot be tolerated by everyone. the diaphram i had was not supposed to be used without spermicide, so that was out.   more reliable methods are needed for those in the world who cannot use the products already available, or whose educational/financial levels do not allow for the more difficult methods of birth control such as basal, mucus and ovulation predictors. we can put people in space, but we supposedly can't control our bodily functions well enough to prevent pregnancy? we cannot muster the self control to prevent pregnancy? we should be given a pass just because well gee, we didn't mean to get pregnant? bullshit!

i guess hoping the human race might learn and possibly grow into something better is nothing more than a pipe dream.    i'm not going to argue about it anymore. i've said my piece. i just hope that what i've raised my sons to believe and follow with the appropriate behavior all these years sticks.
PM

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Post #: 89

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/22/2008 3:57:36 PM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: smilingjaguar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
That is just my opinion of it... if I missed something in my research, please point me to it, as I would love to become better informed.

Thadius

Thadius,

I did some research on the subject and it turns out the source of the story is a leaked White House memo containing a draft of the proposed rule equating birth control to abortion. Here's a link for you, and the text of the proposed rule is in this article. I wish it was only a scare tactic.

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN1536910620080715

Thanks for the link, after reading it I am left with just one question.... why didn't they post the memo? You know what I mean? I have found a few other articles discussing the topic, and none of them present a copy of the document. If the document is real, then the rule proposed probably would not stand up to judicial scrutiny anyways, especially if it is as broad as suggested.

It will be interesting to watch what comes of it,
Thadius

Edited to add: Thanks for the link Ken... I am looking at it now.

< Message edited by Thadius -- 7/22/2008 3:59:35 PM >

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Post #: 90

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/22/2008 4:02:44 PM

kittinSol

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And who are you to tell others that they cannot deal with circumstances (and consequences) the way they personally choose to, sometimes making the decision to terminate the pregnancy? Sorry if I sound a little ticked off here, but who appointed you moral arbiter for the rest of us?

Edited, just because.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 7/22/2008 5:00:05 PM >

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Post #: 91

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/22/2008 5:29:43 PM

hizgeorgiapeach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It makes me laugh when I hear people describe abortions as 'convenient'. They've obviously never been through one when they say that .

Someone mark it on the calander - kittin and I actually Agree on something. (Is the world scheduled to end tonight or something? It's past full moon, so That can't be it!)

Kittin - they've never been through an abortion - or even a D&C for Other medical reasons - nor had to face the decision making process when their life is in danger if they attempt to carry to term, or the fetus involved is completely unviable.

Those of you who want to paint everything Pro Choice in black need to keep a few things in mind. Sometimes the child is NOT VIABLE. They can't survive the birth process at worst, and at best what they face is a very Short life spent on rather expensive high tech manchinery - they'll never Know Anyone, they'll never Do Anything - other than lay in a crib with a breathing tube up one nostril, a feeding tube up the other, and a machine keeping their internal organs working. You haven't faced the choice of Terminate or Deal With That.

Take it from someone who KNOWS - First Hand - just how difficult that decision making process is. Take it from someone who Knows - First Hand - how difficult it is to face ending a pregnancy that you know will Kill You if you carry to term - and how hard it is to weigh your Own life, established, with people dependant on you every day - against the life of a being that isn't even formed yet, and can't take your place and fulfill the responcibilities you carry, and may or may not ever be a productive member of society.

Convenient? That decision is anything BUT Convenient. It is painful emotionally, it is painful period. And when all is said and done, I was one of the LUCKY ones who faced such a decision making process - I miscarried a few days prior to when termination was scheduled.

Birth control does not even begin to come Close to facing that decision - because when it works properly, you don't Have to face that decision.

< Message edited by hizgeorgiapeach -- 7/22/2008 5:30:13 PM >

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Post #: 92

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/22/2008 7:39:10 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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Trojan and Crown brands (Trojan even has a new latex-free condom which is damned good, and strong).

If you've got a bodily-fluids contract with the people you're playing with, and you're not worried about STDs, the lambskin (Naturalamb) condoms are the best I've ever used, and the gentlemen involved swear that they're like not wearing a condom at all.

WARNING: Lambskin condoms have pores. They're actually made from lamb intestine, so they are NOT a barrier method for preventing STDs.

Calla Firestorm

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Post #: 93

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/22/2008 10:03:38 PM

Vendaval

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Fast Reply -

smilingjaguar and DomKen, thank you for the links. This Bush Admin proposal would set family planning and women's health care back by decades.

Hopelessfool, you mention friction being a problem and contributing to the breakage of condoms. How much lube are you using?

Camille, birth control pills have many benefits for women besides pregnancy prevention. I used to take them for severe PMS and irregular menstrual cycles.

(spelling edit)

< Message edited by Vendaval -- 7/22/2008 10:06:41 PM >

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RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/22/2008 10:06:21 PM

Leatherist

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Shrugs,if more people got thier tubes tied and quit fucking around, we'd have less of a need for condoms AND abortion. And there is not much that a bluenose can say about you geting fixed as a birth control method.

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RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/23/2008 5:10:37 AM

hopelessfool

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Hopelessfool, you mention friction being a problem and contributing to the breakage of condoms. How much lube are you using?

(spelling edit)

when we were enjoying the use of condoms we rearly used lube because it wasnt um.... needed...until around the 2 change... but when we used it we still had breakage...

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RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/23/2008 6:53:02 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

Shrugs,if more people got thier tubes tied and quit fucking around, we'd have less of a need for condoms AND abortion. And there is not much that a bluenose can say about you geting fixed as a birth control method.

Leatherist,

As a woman, most doctors won't tie your tubes tied until you're over 32 or have 3 children -- the reasoning being if you haven't -had- a kid and you're under 32, how do you know you won't want one in a couple years.

My step-daughter just tried to get hers tied. She's known since she became a woman that she -never- wanted to have children. She was turned down, and told she either had to have a couple babies, just to make sure, or wait until she is "old enough" to reasonably decide that she won't -ever- want children. When she asked how old was "old enough", the doctor shrugged and said "Oh, mid 30s or so...women are deciding they want babies later and later, you know."

This is the same bull-pucky they gave -me- when I tried to get my own done 20 years ago.

Calla Firestorm

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 7/23/2008 6:55:10 AM >

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Post #: 97

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/23/2008 8:31:35 AM

MusicalBoredom

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I think I have read all of the links now. Thanks for posting links. As far as I can tell what we have are leaked memos about a proposal that hasn't been written yet. Now I am no Bush or Bush Admin supporter in any shape or form but a memo is a pretty common thing. At my company we write all sorts of memos describing all sorts of things from all sorts of people. If from an employee it is usually along the lines of someone telling me an idea and I say put it on paper. I would have to say that maybe 10% of those go further than the memo and less than half of those go any further than a review with more data. My point is that until something is written up as a proposal then it is just an idea. That idea could have come from anyone and doesn't suggest intent at all.

As far as the topic of those ideas go it looks to me as though what is being talked about is if practitioners should be required to give birth control or abortions or anything in between, not if those things are allowed. I'm not quite sure where I stand on this. Personally I am pro-choice and an avid supporter of birth control. Notice that by being pro-choice I mean each person should be able to make up their own mind as to their morals and actions. As such, is it right to force a Doctor to go against his/her own morals to perform an abortion or administer something like Plan B? By requiring that they do so, we are removing their own choice about their own convictions. I know plenty of health care professionals who would not go against their own moral code by administering those procedures but I'm sure some would prefer not to. So should we say that some people have a choice to follow their own convictions and some do not have that choice?

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Post #: 98

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/23/2008 9:46:21 AM

corsetgirl

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That is such a ridiculous assumption to consider birth control as abortion. I was raised Catholic, which is against having any form of contraception; however, I think it is a little disturbing to have the pope tell me when and how many I can have children.

If I had a daughter who came to me telling me that she is thinking about having sex, you can bet I would take her to a doctor's office or the health clinic and have her put on birth control. I would rather have birth control than for a young teenaged girl struggle to try to raise the child or go through an abortion.

I remember taking a family planning class in high school and the teacher would tell us about the methods of birth control matters, which is very important and that was many moons ago. I firmly believe that middle and high schools should have this class, explain to the students about STD's and pregnancy, the various methods to prevent these occurrences including abstinence, and to prepare them to be ready when they do want to get married and have children.

The far right religious fanatics need to get their heads out of the sand and look at reality. If a teenager wants to have sex, they are going to have sex but the responsbility also lies within the parent to teach females to love themselves and to always maintain open communication with them. Parents should also teach young boys to be more responsible for their actions and if they do get a girl pregnant, then it is their responsbility to take care of the child.

I am also aware that some drug stores would not sell birth control medications because of their views on the "morality" of the female, this is also very wrong because I am on it but for other health reasons.

< Message edited by corsetgirl -- 7/23/2008 9:47:07 AM >

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Post #: 99

RE: Birth control = abortion? - 7/23/2008 9:55:03 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: corsetgirl

I am also aware that some drug stores would not sell birth control medications because of their views on the "morality" of the female, this is also very wrong because I am on it but for other health reasons.

....while i consider the idea that birth control is a form of abortion is a wholly reprehensible argument, i do take issue with the small quote above. For the same reason that no doctor ought to be forced to perform an abortion, so no pharmacist should be forced to sell something they find morally wrong. i am absolutely not suggesting that such pharmacists are correct, in fact, i think they're wrong, but if it is a genuine belief it ought to be respected.

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Post #: 100

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