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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 2:45:48 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
Sparring in a gym is not the same as taking someone down in real life, or getting taken down and ending up in a hospital.  Not only is it different in-the-moment, it requires fundamentally different short-term and long-term emotion processing afterward.


Obviously the experience isn't the same. However you're forgetting about the fact that when you train year after year practicing moves, you don't need to think about the correct response. Someone grabs for you this way and you automatically respond that way. The correct response is built in by the years of training.

Afterwards, yes there are going to be issues that a decent person will have to come to grips with the fact that they deliberately harmed someone. But the alternativ to that is someone who is a sociopath and doesn't care. Would you prefer to be with someone like that? I wouldn't.

quote:


Preparing for something is not the same as the doing of the thing.  I'm in the "online isn't real" camp -- and maybe I'm harder-core than some people, because I believe that online BDSM and relationshiping is a negative -- not just a different kink -- because it encourages people to worship a mirage, instead of exploring reality.


What about those of us, like you and me, who do both? We hang out online and talk about relationships and also live them. Does the online detract from the real one, somehow balancing  out to zero? Or if you had a three year relationship and have since been online for five, where do you stand?



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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 2:53:26 PM   
DominantJenny


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Joined: 4/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Preparing for something is not the same as the doing of the thing.  I'm in the "online isn't real" camp -- and maybe I'm harder-core than some people, because I believe that online BDSM and relationshiping is a negative -- not just a different kink -- because it encourages people to worship a mirage, instead of exploring reality.


Red, I started off exploring online and within six months (less, I think) was also doing it in person, so I think I have a good point of view on this. Yes, online is probably (and I say probably because I've met people in clubs, in person, who were doing the exact same thing) more likely to involve worshipping a mirage/coming to highly inaccurate conclusions, but it's certainly not guaranteed to.
While I had my encounters with people who were clearly living in fantasy land, I also had relationships (two in particular) that were every bit as real and important as the one I had live and in person. I learned a LOT from my online/ldr's, stuff that I can say from experience held true in the real world. Physical activities need, ultimately, to be practiced in physical space before they are actually engaged in. The rest of it...not so much, if the people engaging are serious, thoughtful, responsible, and good communicators.
I'm not trying to change your mind, but suggesting that you keep it a bit more open.

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 3:41:26 PM   
Daddystouch


Posts: 162
Joined: 10/20/2006
From: South East England
Status: offline 		Hmm... being kinked, for many people I think, is like being straight or gay. It is something you are, regardless of experience. A gay virgin is still gay.

In the lifestyle though? You might say that if you don't have a partner this second, you're not in the lifestyle. I'd say that if you're on forums or going to munches, even if you never play with anyone, you're in the lifestyle to one degree or another.

I never say I am 'in the lifestyle', it sounds a bit exclusive to me! I'm kinked, I've played kinky, had a kinked relationship, want another, visit forums, chat to folks, go to munches... I don't consider myself to be experienced.


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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 3:41:41 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantJenny

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Preparing for something is not the same as the doing of the thing.  I'm in the "online isn't real" camp -- and maybe I'm harder-core than some people, because I believe that online BDSM and relationshiping is a negative -- not just a different kink -- because it encourages people to worship a mirage, instead of exploring reality.


I happen to agree, Red, when it comes to dynamics built solely on the online medium.  Still, I think online can be a vital tool in a LDR.



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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 4:27:56 PM   
RedMagic1


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Status: offline 		But, DJ, did you learn to be good communicators online, or did you already have those social skills because of real-life (vanilla) interaction, and you applied them to an online world that was a temporary stepping-stone for you?  I suppose my wording was terse, and could be interpreted to include your situation also, but I think it's a different animal entirely.  Using an online medium as one tool among many is not the same as considering it the end in itself.

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 4:56:42 PM   
Evility


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
So, I'm wondering, does anyone else see it like this?


I view it in the same terms that I view sexuality or sexual orientation. Someone can be heterosexual or homosexual or somewhere in between without ever having been sexually active. There's still a difference between those who are virgins and those who are veterans but I think they all still fall under the same unmbrella. And they all may well need it... I've never seen a pissing contest where everyone did just end up all wet.


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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 5:19:48 PM   
StrongSpirit


Posts: 575
Joined: 4/10/2005
Status: offline 		There is another phenomena as well.

Some people start in the scene, then meet someone and get involved in a vanilla relationship.

Their partner is not into kink, but is "OK" with them participating online as long as they don't do anything in RL.

The relationship lasts say 5 years (or ten or 20). 

End result, the person has significant experience for say 3 months, then has none over the past 5 years.

I actually know several people in similar situations.  They have been kinky on-and-off for a long period.  Total experience is on the small side, but length of involvement is high.

---------------
I personally solve the problem by saying "I don't care how much you know.  If I like you, I'll play with you."

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 5:41:47 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain
To use the example, what determines if a person is a Buddhist? Why couldn't he have become one by reading and studying? Exactly, what does the person have to DO in order to be ordained a Buddhist? He may be living like a Buddhist already in his mind. He doesn't learn a secret handshake, grow spots or something because he LIVES like a Buddhist.

I think that's part of the quandary right there.  Doesn't a person have to make a decision to become a Buddhist, rather than just learning about it?  Couldn't a person immerse themselves in the knowledge, and still not be exactly what he pursued in learning.  Wouldn't that LIVING part, make the difference?



No... I don't think a person has to decide to be a buddhist... to be one.  The label denotes a certain criteria.  If the person is already within the criteria.... he is a buddhist.   the label is rather irrelevant.   It is not the label that makes us who we are... but our choices of action or inaction.  Did I proclaim I was a male to anyone when I was born?... no... I just was... and other recognized me as such... because I fit into a criteria that people have that is pre-established.  We can recognized a person as a buddist because they live up to the criteria we see as being a buddhist.  They need not claim themselves to be a buddhist

So.. the question what is the criteria.  When we talk about.. being in the lifestyle... what is the criteria to be in the lifestyle.  It a rather subjective answer... so many various opinions.  For some... Online is not a person in the lifestyle... for others they see such as a person in the lifestyle.  I would also stated... that just because a person says they are in the lifestyle is not the end all and be all either.  ... I can state that I am a buddhist... but never practice any of their teachings.. know any of their teachings.. go to any of their um sacred places..... but yeah.. I am buddhist... truth is... some may take me at my word.. and some will say BS.  

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 5:46:37 PM   
DominantJenny


Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

But, DJ, did you learn to be good communicators online, or did you already have those social skills because of real-life (vanilla) interaction, and you applied them to an online world that was a temporary stepping-stone for you?  I suppose my wording was terse, and could be interpreted to include your situation also, but I think it's a different animal entirely.  Using an online medium as one tool among many is not the same as considering it the end in itself.


It wasn't just a temporary stepping stone; one of those two relationships I mentioned was never going to go offline, but to suggest that it was somehow not "real" would be highly insulting; he was (and remains, though we don't keep in touch) one of my primary educators and a very, very, very dear friend.
Yeah, we came into it as good communicators; if you're a bad communicator, you're going to have problems in "meat space" just as you are online. I suppose it may become apparent more quickly...but, then, it depends on the tolerance level of the place in either case, really.
I dunno. Certainly the whole shebang is preferable, but I am just not willing to say that only online is inherently to be condemned.

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 6:03:41 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

What Christian Barnard did was relatively easy. Doing the transplant was the easy part and that's why his patients died very quickly. What made heart transplants possible was the development of cyclosporins to prevent rejection which took years of study and research.

Now, I didn't pick the example of the Buddhist, that was the one given. How would you describe those who have not been in relationships for many years? Are they still Dominant or submissive? If in their mind they fit a description they learned by reading and it is one they believe in, who am I to say they are not there?


Good point...up to an extent.  Yes, the first heart transplant patients died quickly...his earlier work as a heart surgeon was exemplary.  And his work paved the way for others to learn.  But learning it and knowing all there is to know about it does not make you a heart surgeon...getting in there and doing it and doing so successfully does.  As for those who have not been in relationships for years, they at least were in one at one time.  In terms of my own viewpoint, until you have been in at least one relationship...be it D/s, vanilla, poly, whatever...then you are not fully whatever term fits that.  I felt dominant, knew that was the path I wanted to explore, set about learning all I could about it but until I did it, all my thoughts and theories and everyone else's thoughts and theories that I had encompassed were just that...theories untried by ME.  The fact that they worked for someone else meant nothing other than it worked for them...what mattered was whether or not I could follow through successfully on it.

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 6:15:45 PM   
RedMagic1


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Joined: 5/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantJenny
stuff here

I'm honestly not sure we are disagreeing.  I certainly have online-only friends, some of whom have wayyyyyyyy more scening experience than I do.  I just wrote one, in fact -- and got advice back -- about a situation a friend of mine is in.  That said, the great preponderance of "OMG I'm in love with my Master and he left me" threads are started by people whose primary/sole practice is online.  You're someone with a solid foundation in real life.  Not everyone is that way, and while online might "feel safer," it's better to deal with people in real life, and learn to handle emotional responsibility.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to DominantJenny)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 6:38:24 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		As I've said before, being a dominant-type person is both something that I -am-, and something that I -do-.

In the sense that I am a toppish, domineering, somewhat bossy (ok, very bossy), directive, individual, my dominance is inherent in my personality and does not require any "experiences" to validate it. It is something that I -am-. (We'll call this "Type 1")

That being said, there is another aspect to being dominant, and that is being -A- FemDom... now that is something I -do-. In particular, I am a femdom who participates in the real world, interacting with individuals in the BDSM community, practicing skills particular to my own fetishes. This requires that I first be a Type 1 sort of person, so we'll call this (Type 2)


It is completely possible to be a Type 1 'dominant' or 'submissive' individual and have only theoretical experiences. It is also possible to be a Type 1 and have things to contribute in a virtual environment.

It is possible to be a Type 2 dominant or submissive individual -only- if there is some real experience. Unless you are -doing- something, there is no way to determine the viability of your acts in the real world -- Even if my only acts in the real world are learning, I are still -doing- something about being a FemDom.

IMO, It -is- possible to be dominant and submissive as an individual (being), while having no practical experience. However, it is not possible to be a Dom, FemDom, slave, servant, etc., without actually digging in with your flesh and bones and committing to the experience... every experience shapes us, and there just isn't the same level of risk in a strictly virtual environment -- you don't have to put your flesh on the line. To me, it is that measure of risk on both sides of the collar that make the difference between -being-, and -doing-.


Firestorm

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 6:54:17 PM   
Shadowraven


Posts: 28
Joined: 9/14/2006
Status: offline 		quote:

ORIGINAL: InsaenPleasures

One other thing to remember is that even someone who has been in the lifestyle for a long time may have no real practical experience. I do not consider them fakes, because we all do not have the same opportunities even if we read up on every subject and have real discussions. Some people are theoretical and thats fine, just be aware that their real experience is rather limited.

Well. I see a problem with this statement in the first sentence. If we assume that a lifestyle refers to a method of living, and that "the lifestyle" as in the above quote refers to the BDSM lifestyle... then the statement "has been in the lifestyle for a long time may have no real practical experience." is simply an oxymoron. The act of being in the lifestyle (for a long time, or any period of time really) implies that you take on the common methods of living usually associated with that culture. In doing so, you generally participate in some form or manifestation of it. Be it the fact that you actually have a slave, or go to munches and social gatherings, hang out at dungeons, or some similar activities. I do believe that online BDSM can in fact be referred to as a lifestyle of sorts, as it is sometimes just what certain people do... but I also believe that for the sake of accurate communication that difference should be noted by the terminology. Perhaps referring to that type of online living as virtual BDSM or something like that... but just plainly referring to "the lifestyle" in such a manner, implies the real participation in the real world culture, as it has grown and diversified from the old leather days. And clearly, someone who tries to trade in participation in the online culture, for brownie points in the real world, is either misled, or just naive... because almost everyone is different online than IRL, especially when it comes to fantasies and fetishes.

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 7:04:22 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Asmodeus

Someone may be dominant or submissive in their non D/s existence; that doesn't qualify as experience in BDSM. 

Would you let an online dominant wield a singletail on you in real life?  I actually know of at least two submissives who allowed that, neither one aware that for the dominant that they had met on line this was the first time they had used them on a live person.  One neutral experience; one who still has a nasty scar in a sensitive place.


Not everyone into BDSM is into singletails or any type of play that needs 'training or experience'.
Kink is not the end all and be all for everyone.


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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 7:14:02 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		There's a reason I've used the term "active in wiitwd" in my profile for years.  You can be involved in wiitwd, but not really active in any of it.  My partner can talk in detail about kinky porn stars and authors and groups from decades ago- but it was all passive research, reading, watching, hesitant peeking.  He's only been active and exploring since shortly before we met.

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RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 9:32:39 PM   
rook42


Posts: 110
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		"If you see buddha on the side of the road, kill him" --> Favorite one line quote, and very abused by being taken out of context.

I like the analogy you've got going here :)

Far be it from anyone to argue with an individual who claims any subjective identity. If they say they are a buddhist, then there is no point in claiming otherwise. If you're looking for direction on your own path, whether they self-reference as buddhist or not is a bit moot.

The identity simply means that they believe they are oriented in a certain direction. They could be dead wrong- maybe buddhism is an excuse, for them, for just another set of paradigms to blindly view the world with. Either way, "I'm trying to make sure my eyes are open" and "my eyes are open" are two very different statements. Claiming to be a buddhist is not the latter.

Does being "lifestyle" mean that you are an expert player, and fully know what fulfills you? I don't really think so. There's always new things to do. The way I've heard the phrase used it seems either an affectation, or a statement of interests. BDSM holds a value to that individuals life. Claiming that it doesn't is quite hard when you are not inside their head.

That having been said, if you want to use the original meaning of the word... An individual cannot possess a bundle of behaviors characteristic to a group without having those behaviors.  The fact that I am attempting to contribute(possibly quite lamely) to a conversation on a forum would not indicate a BDSM lifestyle. This bundle of behaviors is more associated with dorkiness than BDSM, and really isn't that kinky at all. This does NOT seem to be the way that the term is in common use now, though.

The community dictionary has changed in the past 40 years. By today's dictionary(or really any dictionary), saying "om" or shooting arrows whilst solemn and spiritual are not really necessary to claim to be buddhist. Knowing handkerchief code, wearing a leather vest over a beer belly*, or spending hours a week contemplating the mysteries of the singletail are not necessary to be a sexual deviant. The only benefit I can see out of believing these things being necessary to "lifestyle" is a way to feel superior about one's tastes.

*(Gimme a couple years/beers, and my views may change. Hats are looking much more BDSM as my hairline recedes.)

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/22/2008 10:13:12 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Comparing online D/s bdsm to the real thing is like comparing playing "pole position, the video game" to nascar racing.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/23/2008 3:29:29 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		BDSM isn't all physical.
It totally depends on the form of BDSM being used.
Physical bondage needs physical work.  Mental bondage - not so much.  So is it less 'experience' to have practised it over the phoneline? Discipline doesn't have to have a hands on approach - etcetc...
 
People who are under the belief that a relationship or way of life  stops the minute you are both not in the same room, well - I would be concerned about that kind of mentallity in a person and not get involved with them.  It's not elitest to think that lack of face to face contact means less experience, but to think that is inexperience in itself.
 
the.dark.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/23/2008 4:56:30 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		I would probably not submit in person to someone who had not Dominated in person. I might mentor/coach or play with that person as a bottom, but not as a submissive. Direct them how to spank or crop or whatever ... but actually play where there is power exchange and submission .. no chance ... thats not how I like my kink to be. I would never stand in front of a single tail delivered by someone who had never trained on one, and put that training to use on numerous occassions on real live victims.

A lot of people get very sniffy about the "quality" of BDSM that can happen at a remove. I will never claim that a cyber beating is a beating .. its not .. its faintly erotic just like a erotic story is .. but its not an actual beating. I did the whole online line cybering thing .. I will hold my hand up to having had an  online "Master" who I could get all sweaty palmed as I typed to in the dead of night. Fine. Mock me for it. I considered it free porn. I don't regret it, I didn't learn anything from it .. it just aided my solo sex life.

Now however I have a very different type of online relationship ... my intereactions with DV have mostly ... in fact 99% of them, have been at the end of a phone line. I consider my relationship with Him to be very real, I considered it very real *before* I met Him in person. I considered myself His property *before* He put the collar on my neck, He controlled me *before* He ever laid a hand on me. Now I was being controlled, directed and dominanted by Him far more extensively from the end of a phone line than anyone else has ever been able to do in person. 2 years I was with Master WankStain and he never managed to get me into skirts and high heels when I didn't want to. DV did it in weeks.

"online" long distance .. whatever you want to call it ... sure it can be just creative wanking, and no it isn't a replacement for real time experience ... dont make the mistake however of chucking the baby out with the bathwater.

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(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: A discussion during a discussion - 7/23/2008 5:12:56 AM   
DominantJenny


Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantJenny
stuff here

I'm honestly not sure we are disagreeing.  I certainly have online-only friends, some of whom have wayyyyyyyy more scening experience than I do.  I just wrote one, in fact -- and got advice back -- about a situation a friend of mine is in.  That said, the great preponderance of "OMG I'm in love with my Master and he left me" threads are started by people whose primary/sole practice is online.  You're someone with a solid foundation in real life.  Not everyone is that way, and while online might "feel safer," it's better to deal with people in real life, and learn to handle emotional responsibility.


*nod* I think it's a mistake, though, to blame "online"; the problem isn't, imo, that they have online relationships, but that they have little to no relationship experience period; that they need to grow up in general. I think the difference is that I'm arguing that online isn't the cause, but only a symptom, and only some of the time. As softness said, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater here; it's all in how it's handled and in the people involved...which is true both online and off, imo.

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 40
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