RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/28/2008 6:50:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
 electing a leader of mixed race, would send a reasonably clear message to our society. 



         I don't understand what you mean by this, Caitlyn.  Unless you've embraced a conspiracist worldview, isn't who gets elected a message FROM our society?

      The message of an Obama election would be to the fringe, both the racists on one side, and those who make their way in life by seeing racism instead of their own failures.  A good, solid, STFU to both.



TheHeretic -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/28/2008 8:55:04 PM)

To the general subject of the OP:


      Not a bad speech, not his best work either.  If and if, it lays a nice foundation for making nice with the citizenry of Europe.

       I have to wonder again about Barry.  He's running on getting us out of Iraq, to send our troops to even nastier places where the people just saw him run away from the last fight.  Could the dumbest intern down in p.r. please explain to him about this?  Maybe a token veteran in the mailroom?  End the war in Iraq so we can launch even more crazy military adventures?  Isn't Iraq bad enough?

       Then his central imagery of the airlift.  Does he understand that this occurred after the people of that city had been on the receiving end of maybe the 20th Century's greatest prolonged asskicking?  That makes a difference.  Does he understand our obligations to those citizens pale in comparison to what we owe in Iraq?  We started that one. 

       Does he really not get this stuff?  Or is he the most lying, deceitful creature since Hunter Thompson imagined Carter might be one?  There is hope.  Somebody wised him up about that stupid fucking pin in the lapel, and he seems to have listened.

       I'll be eagerly waiting for his convention speech.  I suspect he will blow the congration off their feet, and the multitudes at home onto them. 

      And maybe then, he'll have a bit to say about the "How."



caitlyn -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/28/2008 9:07:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I don't understand what you mean by this, Caitlyn.  Unless you've embraced a conspiracist worldview, isn't who gets elected a message FROM our society?

The message of an Obama election would be to the fringe, both the racists on one side, and those who make their way in life by seeing racism instead of their own failures.  A good, solid, STFU to both.


Based on your second paragraph, I think you got my meaning pretty clearly. [;)]



caitlyn -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/28/2008 9:10:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
I don't want Obama spending more of my money period.  I want government to keep its greedy paws away from my business and from my bank account.


And Senator McCain is going to give you that government?



celticlord2112 -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/29/2008 5:11:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
I don't want Obama spending more of my money period.  I want government to keep its greedy paws away from my business and from my bank account.


And Senator McCain is going to give you that government?

Not completely, but I'll get more of it than I would with Obama.



caitlyn -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/29/2008 5:55:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Not completely, but I'll get more of it than I would with Obama.


Ya think? How about we make this a fact-based discussion.
 
If Senator Obama is going to spend more, how about telling us what major programs of immense spending he is likely to get pushed through or continue supporting in his first term, and I will do the same for Senator McCain. I'll even go first.
 
1. War.
 
2. Massive deregulation and lack of oversight over big business, that mostly seems to lead to crisis/bailout. For whatever reason, this seems to have become a fixture in Senator McCain's platform over the past six months.
 
3. Turning a blind eye to oil companies. Senator McCain won't discuss this topic, even when pressed on it ... Senator Obama has said many times that he intends to take a look at oil companies, as it relates to price fixing.
 
I'm willing to listen to alternative points of view, but am looking for something a little more subtantial than personal insults against one candidate, and discussions of grey matter ... no offense intended.
 
Remember, we are talking likely to get pushed through or continue supporting. Balls in your court ... I'm off to work. [;)]



Thadius -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/29/2008 6:40:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Not completely, but I'll get more of it than I would with Obama.


Ya think? How about we make this a fact-based discussion.
 
If Senator Obama is going to spend more, how about telling us what major programs of immense spending he is likely to get pushed through or continue supporting in his first term, and I will do the same for Senator McCain. I'll even go first.
 
1. War.
 
2. Massive deregulation and lack of oversight over big business, that mostly seems to lead to crisis/bailout. For whatever reason, this seems to have become a fixture in Senator McCain's platform over the past six months.
 
3. Turning a blind eye to oil companies. Senator McCain won't discuss this topic, even when pressed on it ... Senator Obama has said many times that he intends to take a look at oil companies, as it relates to price fixing.
 
I'm willing to listen to alternative points of view, but am looking for something a little more subtantial than personal insults against one candidate, and discussions of grey matter ... no offense intended.
 
Remember, we are talking likely to get pushed through or continue supporting. Balls in your court ... I'm off to work. [;)]


The Obama list.

1. War (he is just moving the front to Afghanistan)
2. S.2433 will probably be making it to the presidents desk shortly after taking office.
3. Increased taxes, in the form of rolling back the tax cuts that are presently on the books, increasing the capital gains tax to 30%
4. Universal healthcare, which will also require more taxes to pay for...

How's that for a short list?



caitlyn -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/29/2008 8:50:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
1. War (he is just moving the front to Afghanistan)
2. S.2433 will probably be making it to the presidents desk shortly after taking office.
3. Increased taxes, in the form of rolling back the tax cuts that are presently on the books, increasing the capital gains tax to 30%
4. Universal healthcare, which will also require more taxes to pay for...

How's that for a short list?


Response 1. Even fully manned and funded, the Afghanistan front would be a small fraction of the front in Iraq, and does represent groups that actually proved themselved to be a threat to our national security. I would see this as a positive ... less money spent, combatting actual terrorists, as opposed to invented ones.
 
Response 2. This is a bill that hasn't even been voted on yet, so this point is possible, but hardly the sure thing you are presenting here.
 
Response 3. I think both would happen, so I will give you this one.
 
Response 4. I used the phrase, "likely to get pushed through" and even used it twice. This is the camel through the eye of the needle ... there will not be universal healthcare in the United States any time soon.
 
So, you can have #3 as a money pit, but have to take some back out with the savings from #1. Probably a wash, perhaps even a gain for my side.
 
Lets frame this a little more.
 
Has the current NeoCon agenda, ended up being the greatest spending machine in our history ... yes or no? Myself, I think we could not burn money as fast as our present administration is spending it.
 
Does Senator McCain primarily support the current NeoCon agenda ... yes or no?



Thadius -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/29/2008 9:44:46 PM)

The cost offsets of moving the front from Iraq to Afghanistan will be small if any, remember he is not talking about removing all troops from Iraq, so the numbers of troops will basicly be swapped from one country to the other.

S.2433 has a very good chance of being pushed through Congress, especially if Dems make the kind of gains that are expected in Nov.

I think Congressional spending has been a travesty, both Dems and Repubs are guilty of it.  I even began to believe that Bush never saw a spending bill that he would veto.  Quite frankly, I believe both parties have gone off the deep end with spending and pet projects.

I am not sure as to what your definition of a Neocon is, so I will hold back comment.

Here is just one link analyzing the spending proposals of Obama, they also have done the same for McCain.
http://www.ntu.org/pdf/P080603Obama_SpendingAnalysis.pdf 

You will notice that many of the programs have a cost unknown by them, such as:
quote:

“Obama will recommit America to ensuring that our schools, libraries, households and hospitals
have access to next generation broadband networks. He will also make sure that there are
adequate training and other supplementary resources to allow every school, library and hospital
to take full advantage of the broadband connectivity.”
Cost: Unknown.

 
 
quote:

“As President, I will double our annual [foreign aid] investments in meeting these challenges to
$50 billion by 2012. … Doubling our foreign assistance spending by 2012
 
 
 
quote:

“That’s why I strongly support the expansion of our ground forces by adding 65,000 soldiers to
the Army and 27,000 Marines.”
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/fpccga
 
 
Edited to fix the wierd glitch with the quote tags...



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